The Positive Brexit Thread

[sonyc 5,511]

The numbers and support keep rising. Reading today that Starmer thinks joining the SM is not a panacea "at this stage".

I'm becoming more hopeful - as I am about the reform of the House of Lords with improved devolution. John Harris has written a piece in today's Guardian about increasing political solidarity across the North. Unusual for him to hint at a spark of light too. Yet, Brexit and the Tory policies that have led to widening gaps in inequality mean that this would always happen. It's all about society realising a point of change, a tipping point I guess. Then, a social and political movement takes hold.

#idealismreturning

Edited December 5, 2022 by sonyc

[Yellow Fever 3,772]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

The numbers and support keep rising. Reading today that Starmer thinks joining the SM is not a panacea "at this stage".

I'm becoming more hopeful - as I am about the reform of the House of Lords with improved devolution. John Harris has written a piece in today's Guardian about increasing political solidarity across the North. Unusual for him to hint at a spark of light too. Yet, Brexit and the Tory policies that have led to widening gaps in inequality mean that this would always happen. It's all about society realising a point of change, a tipping point I guess. Then, a social and political movement takes hold.

#idealismreturning

I think I commented a long time ago that sooner or later it's going to be difficult to find anybody who'll admit to voting Brexit in polite society. 'Wasn't me'.

The deeper point is of course as these numbers continue to grow and the damage Brexit has done becomes ever more plain to see plus the lack of any tangible benefits - it is going to be inevitable that the political debate will move back to some future realignment call it what you will.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Yellow Fever
The 1000'th page is in site on this!

[benchwarmer 625]

We're being told that lack of investment is a key reason for our economic woes, and so it is.  But Brexiteers argue that we've had low growth for 12 years but been out of the EU for less than two, so Brexit can't be a major factor.

Wrong.  Brexit-related reluctance to invest goes back over six years to June 2016, the date of the referendum result.  

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by benchwarmer

[Yellow Fever 3,772]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

We're being told that lack of investment is a key reason for our economic woes, and so it is.  But Brexiteers argue that we've had low growth for 12 years but been out of the EU for less than two, so Brexit can't be a major factor.

Wrong.  Brexit-related reluctance to invest goes back over six years to June 2016, the date of the referendum result.  

 

Brexit is just one factor among many - and yes 2016 was the kick-off date.

The truth is when you're in a hole stop digging, especially one of your own making. Brexit is that hole so the government of the day should stop digging it any deeper and try to find a way to climb out. It won't solve all our problems but its a good start on the way back to sanity and that new found realism may then even let us address other factors limiting the economy.

Alternatively keep living in dream-world.

[benchwarmer 625]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Brexit is just one factor among many - and yes 2016 was the kick-off date.

The truth is when you're in a hole stop digging, especially one of your own making. Brexit is that hole so the government of the day should stop digging it any deeper and try to find a way to climb out. It won't solve all our problems but its a good start on the way back to sanity and that new found realism may then even let us address other factors limiting the economy.

Alternatively keep living in dream-world.

The most worrying aspect is that both main parties have their heads firmly in the sand.  As far as Brexit is concerned, the UK is a one-party state.  If neither will consider rejoining the customs union and/or single market and/or EEA, things can only get worse.

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by benchwarmer

[Well b back 3,203]

10 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think I commented a long time ago that sooner or later it's going to be difficult to find anybody who'll admit to voting Brexit in polite society. 'Wasn't me'.

The deeper point is of course as these numbers continue to grow and the damage Brexit has done becomes ever more plain to see plus the lack of any tangible benefits - it is going to be inevitable that the political debate will move back to some future realignment call it what you will.

 

5 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

The most worrying aspect is that both main parties have their heads firmly in the sand.  As far as Brexit is concerned, the UK is a one-party state.  If neither will consider rejoining the customs union and/or single market and/or EEA, things can only get worse.

 

 

 

I believe there is a problem and this is the reason Labour in particular have a mega problem. If we remember back we were told by Farage and Johnson that the EU needed us more than we needed them. Unfortunately this has proved to be either something that did not happen or a blatant lie. Consequently the EU seem to be doing ok without us and there in lays the problem, why would they want us back ? Why would they trust us ? Why would they forget the taunts from the idiot Farage ?.

So being where we are now maybe Labour know the EU wouldn’t take us back ? Also if no party suggests rejoining at an election, Labour stand to get Tory Brexiteers voting for them as well as those that want back in, who wouldn’t change their vote as nobody is suggesting that.

I do believe however after a year Labour would say ‘ we need to listen to the people ‘.

[sonyc 5,511]

So much for Sunak and his clean growth ambition! Only a couple of weeks after COP27.... An example of Brexit Britain here?

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/cumbria-coal-mine-decision-steel-environment-brexit-b2240025.html

Having an ambition to create new jobs is fine but by sinking a new mine? 

 

Too long to read? Part of article quoted here...

"Caught in a truth-sapping trap of their own iniquitous making, it is hard to see a government which can’t admit that Brexit may have had one or two economic downsides, move away from its historic love of hydrocarbon-based empire building.

Sunak’s administration are simultaneously failing to stimulate growth and failing to support the transition to a green economy which the IEA said, just this morning, is fundamental to propelling the country out of its economic hole"

[horsefly 4,298]

3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

So much for Sunak and his clean growth ambition! Only a couple of weeks after COP27.... An example of Brexit Britain here?

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/cumbria-coal-mine-decision-steel-environment-brexit-b2240025.html

Having an ambition to create new jobs is fine but by sinking a new mine? 

 

Too long to read? Part of article quoted here...

"Caught in a truth-sapping trap of their own iniquitous making, it is hard to see a government which can’t admit that Brexit may have had one or two economic downsides, move away from its historic love of hydrocarbon-based empire building.

Sunak’s administration are simultaneously failing to stimulate growth and failing to support the transition to a green economy which the IEA said, just this morning, is fundamental to propelling the country out of its economic hole"

Starmer described him as blancmange in PMQs and that seems most apposite. A bland mess that wobbles at the slightest prodding. The Tories are now a party bereft of any principle, scruple, or trace of competence. The next two years will be hellish. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Starmer described him as blancmange in PMQs and that seems most apposite. A bland mess that wobbles at the slightest prodding. The Tories are now a party bereft of any principle, scruple, or trace of competence. The next two years will be hellish. 

Sunak doesn't look like he will perform very well during PMQs. I thought SKS was a bit of a drone but Sunak sounds like Simon from Inbetweeners.

[Foxy2600 301]

Oh! The irony!!

[horsefly 4,298]

1 hour ago, Foxy2600 said:

Oh! The irony!!

What's ironic about it?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

20 hours ago, sonyc said:

So much for Sunak and his clean growth ambition! Only a couple of weeks after COP27.... An example of Brexit Britain here?

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/cumbria-coal-mine-decision-steel-environment-brexit-b2240025.html

Having an ambition to create new jobs is fine but by sinking a new mine? 

 

Too long to read? Part of article quoted here...

"Caught in a truth-sapping trap of their own iniquitous making, it is hard to see a government which can’t admit that Brexit may have had one or two economic downsides, move away from its historic love of hydrocarbon-based empire building.

Sunak’s administration are simultaneously failing to stimulate growth and failing to support the transition to a green economy which the IEA said, just this morning, is fundamental to propelling the country out of its economic hole"

I was still a Lib Dem member when the local Lib Dem council approved the planning application; there was a lot of excitement about it.

We're talking 2.7 million tonnes a year in the context of billions of coking coal produced globally that represents over half a billion dollars of added UK exports and a boost to the local economy. That should be given up for the sake of tokenistic symbolism? Get on with it, I say.

[Herman 9,756]

54 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I was still a Lib Dem member when the local Lib Dem council approved the planning application; there was a lot of excitement about it.

We're talking 2.7 million tonnes a year in the context of billions of coking coal produced globally that represents over half a billion dollars of added UK exports and a boost to the local economy. That should be given up for the sake of tokenistic symbolism? Get on with it, I say.

The tories are playing politics. They know this is a short term policy that will not benefit many people, destroy the last remnants of environmental credibility they had but cause the right, divisive arguments. Well done them.🤨

One day they may think about running this country properly instead of playing silly bollox.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Herman

[Yellow Fever 3,772]

25 minutes ago, Herman said:

The tories are playing politics. They know this is a short term policy that will not benefit many people, destroy the last remnants of environmental credibility they had but cause the right, divisive arguments. Well done them.🤨

One day they may think about running this country properly instead of playing silly bollox.

Totally agree but I think SKS should just call the govenments bluff. State Labour won't allow it open.

Sure SKS may lose a few votes in Copeland  - even let a Tory survive - but he will gain and energise zillions of votes elsewhere in the country from all the younger and more environmentally aware voters - and more so show his absolute credibility on climate change. Leadership

Tories by comparison will look like dinosaurs going extinct. Out of time and out of place.

Taxi for the Tory party post 2024 ? 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I daresay the Tory Governments since 2010 have never really had to face up to this sort of situation and certainly not the industrial action that is being taken at the moment.

The blue rinse brigade of Sylvia from Godalming has been replaced by a new era of conservatism when Cameron decided to copy Blair. I'm positive Thatcher revelled in confrontation. But this new crew have no idea how to handle it.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

44 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Totally agree but I think SKS should just call the govenments bluff. State Labour won't allow it open.

Sure SKS may lose a few votes in Copeland  - even let a Tory survive - but he will gain and energise zillions of votes elsewhere in the country from all the younger and more environmentally aware voters - and more so show his absolute credibility on climate change. Leadership

Tories by comparison will look like dinosaurs going extinct. Out of time and out of place.

Taxi for the Tory party post 2024 ? 

I don't think Labour have much to gain from getting that agitated about it. They already have most of the green lobby on their side anyway. Some 'tut tuts' from the Labour leadership, pretty much like what they've done, should be enough to prove their virtue without risking local flack for stymying jobs in the area.

And if it's a fait accompli by the time they get to office then, well, it's a damned shame, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

Edited December 8, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

On 05/12/2022 at 11:17, sonyc said:

The numbers and support keep rising. Reading today that Starmer thinks joining the SM is not a panacea "at this stage".

I'm becoming more hopeful - as I am about the reform of the House of Lords with improved devolution. John Harris has written a piece in today's Guardian about increasing political solidarity across the North. Unusual for him to hint at a spark of light too. Yet, Brexit and the Tory policies that have led to widening gaps in inequality mean that this would always happen. It's all about society realising a point of change, a tipping point I guess. Then, a social and political movement takes hold.

#idealismreturning

57% supported joining Schenghen?! Where'd they get their sample for the poll; the subscribers list for the new European?

 

[sonyc 5,511]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Where'd they get their sample for the poll;

Opinium Research LYB. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinium_Research

They do a lot of political polling but also work for big company/ brands.

As for Schengen, I get your drift, because it allows freedom of movement without border checks.

But, you'll get the overall drift of these polls. More people are supporting closer ties.

It is not a good look (as reported by one writer today) to be behind the popular opinion of the country (ideally you need to lead the change or at least be up with the current - in both senses of that latter term). And both Sunak and Starmer are now. Of course, we know that for SJS it's about not digging around in the mud of Brexit at this moment. Because of all the digging going on (and I don't mean coal mining) then the Tories are digging themselves a great big hole.

Edited December 8, 2022 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Opinium Research LYB. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinium_Research

They do a lot of political polling but also work for big company/ brands.

As for Schengen, I get your drift, because it allows freedom of movement without border checks.

But, you'll get the overall drift of these polls. More people are supporting closer ties. It is not a good look (as reported by one writer today) to be behind the popular opinion of the country (ideally you need to lead the change or at least be up with the current - in both senses of that latter term). And both Sunak and Starmer are at the moment. Of course we know that for SJS it's about not digging around in the mud of Brexit at this moment. Because of all the digging going on (and I don't mean coal mining) then the Tories are digging themselves a great big hole.

Most of the things on the list are desirable in isolation. I'd be interested to know the poll responses if people understood the likely concessions that would have to be made and limitations on what's possible.

I would happily bet that the EU would never grant us single market access without rejoining as full members; that would completely go against the the political identity that the EU has sought to establish post-Lisbon.

Reengagement on Erasmus and so on seems plausible to me now the dust is settling.

Dropping customs checks? Very unlikely that the EU would do that, given that even Norway has some customs hoops to jump through as EEA members outside the customs Union. Possibly the technological solutions that were laughed at pre-Brexit will be revisited now there's no incentive for anybody to be difficult about it, although arguments over NI still complicate that.

And I won't bother mentioning why the legislation harmonisation element will be problematic in the near future in the interests of avoiding recycling more pointless disagreements.

[Yellow Fever 3,772]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Most of the things on the list are desirable in isolation. I'd be interested to know the poll responses if people understood the likely concessions that would have to be made and limitations on what's possible.

I would happily bet that the EU would never grant us single market access without rejoining as full members; that would completely go against the the political identity that the EU has sought to establish post-Lisbon.

Reengagement on Erasmus and so on seems plausible to me now the dust is settling.

Dropping customs checks? Very unlikely that the EU would do that, given that even Norway has some customs hoops to jump through as EEA members outside the customs Union. Possibly the technological solutions that were laughed at pre-Brexit will be revisited now there's no incentive for anybody to be difficult about it, although arguments over NI still complicate that.

And I won't bother mentioning why the legislation harmonisation element will be problematic in the near future in the interests of avoiding recycling more pointless disagreements.

Norway is in the SM but not the EU. That solution is not a problem for the EU.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

30 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Norway is in the SM but not the EU. That solution is not a problem for the EU.

Thank you; this is why I said they were in the EEA, and outside the customs union.

[benchwarmer 625]

On 05/12/2022 at 10:17, sonyc said:

The numbers and support keep rising. Reading today that Starmer thinks joining the SM is not a panacea "at this stage".

 

But we have to start somewhere, and it would be a big step in the right direction for at least two reasons:

i)  It would solve the Northern Ireland border issue at a stroke

ii)  It would boost business confidence, thereby encouraging investment

 

[horsefly 4,298]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I would happily bet that the EU would never grant us single market access without rejoining as full members; that would completely go against the the political identity that the EU has sought to establish post-Lisbon.

In other words you have no evidence whatsoever that the EU wouldn't grant the UK membership to the EEA and access to the SM. The fact that this would massively benefit EU export trade and resolve the interminable NI protocol issue, seems to have passed over your head.

[Foxy2600 301]

[Herman 9,756]

It looks like they are moving fast and making sure any culprits are thoroughly investigated. Well done the EU. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,546]

16 minutes ago, Herman said:

It looks like they are moving fast and making sure any culprits are thoroughly investigated. Well done the EU. 

Can't argue with that, but have you ever honestly said 'well done the UK' on the jailing of a corrupt politician domestically, which has happened on several occasions or have you simply taken it as more evidence of how awful and corrupt the UK is?

Edited December 12, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,772]

20 minutes ago, Herman said:

It looks like they are moving fast and making sure any culprits are thoroughly investigated. Well done the EU. 

I was going to say much the same.

They are moving quickly to root out corruption when it found. Well done. Not really sure the point Foxy is trying to make apart from some sort of 'desperation' to find fault. Tells me more about his unbalanced perspective than the EUs. Perhaps he'd also like to comment on our own ongoing government corruption' scandals too ?

Edited December 12, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[Foxy2600 301]

[Herman 9,756]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Can't argue with that, but have you ever honestly said 'well done the UK' on the jailing of a corrupt politician domestically, which has happened on several occasions or have you simply taken it as more evidence of how awful and corrupt the UK is?

When was the last one jailed? Chris Huhne?

[Foxy2600 301]

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Foxy2600
😁