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The Brexit Thread

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6 minutes ago, Van wink said:

No they dont, exactly the same as Militant........sadly for them there is a long and tough road ahead before a new Neil Kinnock comes along and exposes them as a cult, which is all they are.

It's all about purity, they would rather have that than actually take responsibility. That why they always end up eating their own children. They are about protest, not about government.

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21 minutes ago, ricardo said:

It's all about purity, they would rather have that than actually take responsibility. That why they always end up eating their own children. They are about protest, not about government.

This in entirely true - the way they 'hate 'Blair' (yes he made mistakes on Iraq) but who remains the most successful Labour PM.

They are just a protest group - best left marching with banners.

I would also suggest Len McCluskey should be considering his position too 🙂

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1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Unusually @BigFish I find myself totally disagreeing with you.

It the great scheme of things it is a minor thing that won't change anytime soon. I expect we remain broadly in agreement on the important stuff.

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6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It the great scheme of things it is a minor thing that won't change anytime soon. I expect we remain broadly in agreement on the important stuff.

Any sign of pound / dollar parity yet🤔😉

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8 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Any sign of pound / dollar parity yet🤔😉

Never going to live that one down. @ricardo

That said it will be interesting to see what 2020 brings (relegation might rain on my parade as well). Very little chance of Johnson getting a trade deal so it is likely there will be a Brexit Crisis. Will he crash out with no deal or will he use his big majority to sell out the Brexiteers with BRINO.

 

Edited by BigFish
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First time I've ever not voted. Couldn't care less anymore, I don't believe any of those parties are fit to lead the country. Any political system is going to deliberately make things better for one group of people while making it worse for others, all the potential PM's are blithering idiots and 90% of the populace in this country hasn't got a clue about anything. Bored of it all now, I wish everyone else would tire of it as well, turn off the news, put down their papers and get on with their life without worrying about bloody politics. 

If voting actually mattered or could change anything they wouldn't let you do it.

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9 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Never going to live that one down. @ricardo

That said it will be interesting to see what 2020 brings (relegation might rain on my parade as well). Very little chance of Johnson getting a trade deal so it is likely there will be a Brexit Crisis. Will he crash out with no deal or will he use his big majority to sell out the Brexiteers with BRINO.

 

No doubt remainers are still hoping it will be apocaliptic but what happens if it isn't? The world economy is headed for a downturn in any event and I suspect the EU won't want to damage their positive trade balance with us merely out of spite. 

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Leaving aside the narrow horizon of party politics, I think that it is quite possible that Corbyn has helped shift politics in a progressive direction. The Tories were so worried by the 2017 election that they made loads of spending promises, particularly on health and policing.

Whether he fulfils these remains to be seen, but my guess is that he will try (economy permitting). The big rise in working class votes in the midlands and the North also offers a big political opportunity for the Conservatives, so again I think that it  quite likely that we get some form of centrist/ centre right party under Johnson similar to Major and Blair.

Blair's shift to the right was electorally successful for the Labour party but led to a rightwards shift in politics in terms of policy both in the Labour and Conservative parties (and the Liberals went all Orange Book!). Corbyn's shift to the left has been disastrous for the Labour party but has, paradoxically, shifted politics to the left.

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34 minutes ago, ricardo said:

No doubt remainers are still hoping it will be apocaliptic but what happens if it isn't? The world economy is headed for a downturn in any event and I suspect the EU won't want to damage their positive trade balance with us merely out of spite. 

Maybe a few, but there is no benefit in that for anyone. The issue is done, we will leave. This is now a debate about our relationship with the world.

What isn't done is how that plays out next year. It is inconceivable that a deal can be completed in time so the outcome is on a continuum from No Deal Brexit to an extention of the implementation period of up to two years to the exceptance of the some kind of EEA/EFTA arrangement. It is now in Johnson's gift of what the negotiating mandate for the UK is (and I don't believe he has ever said). The EU will be pretty clear on their mandate (the objective is clear-protection of the single market).

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Good post Badger, let’s hope so.

The votes are now in, so the final outcome for the country really does depend on the behavior of this new Tory government. Let’s hope that with the much broader base of support they gained in this election that regional re-development is a focus. 

I continue to be concerned about the protection of our institutions, our trade relations, the role of the media and social media communications, and ultimately our ability to hear the TRUTH, but those are discussions for another day. Today it is simply time to say congratulations to the newly elected Members of Parliament, and to wish the new Government the wisdom to create policies for the common good of the people of the United Kingdom. 

Meanwhile it’s karma for Jo Swinson and Lib Dems executing the political stupidity of forcing a Brexit focused General Election when they did, converting a potential narrow majority AGAINST Brexit into a massive mandate FOR Brexit. All because they were impatient with the WA as it finally started to wind its way through the formal Parliamentary review process. 

Edited by Surfer
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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

It the great scheme of things it is a minor thing that won't change anytime soon. I expect we remain broadly in agreement on the important stuff.

I imagine we probably will but by the next time we get to vote on the 'important stuff', i.e. another 5 years it will be way too late to repair the damage caused by yesterday (even if we win then, which frankly seems very unlikely especially without Scottish seats).

For sure as far as the climate emergency and Brexit are concerned the damage will be irreparable. The economy who knows?? The Tories have abandoned even the pretence of competency so I think we can assume that after another 5 years there will be a massive and very long term repair job required there.

Edited by Creative Midfielder
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Well this is what Dominic Cummings said

People are not solely left or right wing

They are more right wing than you believe and also more leftwing than you believe.

I can agree with that

For those on the left that are a bit um simple

That means on the right

Immigration control, law and order

And on the left

Sending people to the gulag that don't agree with you 🙂

 

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5 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

The thing about Boris is that he doesn't really have any principals - he just wants to be popular (oddly the polar opposite of Corbyn)! His principals only revolve in what he needs to say and do to get into and remain in power.  

Most think Corbyn was a secret Brexiter and Boris a secret Remainer (he wasn't worried about immigration etc). If Boris had thought his path to power had been through Remain  he would of campaigned for it without a moment's further thought.

Now he's got a majority the ERG are quite dispensable along with any other fellow travellers principled or otherwise he's used to arrive at his position. In this respect Farage is right - he will betray everybody!

However - to be and remain 'popular' - especially in the North and Midlands he will now pivot to the least damaging form of Brexit he can find 'off the shelf' from the EU - 'Brexit' is and was just a state of mind for most (the EU a scapegoat  for problems closer to home);  a notion of (not the nuanced reality) of sovereignty - hence they'll happily believe we've left on the 31st of January and move on whereas in reality we will be , and remain, heavily engaged with the EU as trade partner for decades as we must. 

I agree with all of that, with the caveat that the only form of Brexit that reduces economic damage to anything like an acceptable level would probably be available from the EU but  would be unacceptable to just those voters who helped him to this landslide, because it would mean keeping freedom of movement. No matter how much Johnson span and lied, they would recognise it as in effect overturning the referendum.

I think he may pivot on some issues - for example, by thumbing his nose at the now powerless ERG by asking to stay in a customs' union - but I don't believe he could sell staying in the single market.

More broadly, the commentariat is forced to make instant judgments and one line of analysis is that Johnson has added a whole new bloc of voters to the Tory party. I doubt that. I posted a couple of weeks back about a journalist who had toured some of these constituencies and found that while these voters didn't believe anything Corbyn said, or 99 per cent of what Johnson said, they did very much believe one of the latter's promises. That he would deliver Brexit. And they were right to. But that doesn't make them Tories, who will keep on voting that way. They voted that way because of Brexit.

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27 minutes ago, Bagster said:

Well this is what Dominic Cummings said

People are not solely left or right wing

They are more right wing than you believe and also more leftwing than you believe.

I can agree with that

For those on the left that are a bit um simple

That means on the right

Immigration control, law and order

And on the left

Sending people to the gulag that don't agree with you 🙂

 

The much malligned "DOM" seems to have won the day, "DAG" will be less than pleased.

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4 hours ago, Van wink said:

From what I'm hearing this morning Momentum are showing no contrition and its going to be more of the same. 

yes please with sugar on top!

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52 minutes ago, Van wink said:

The much malligned "DOM" seems to have won the day, "DAG" will be less than pleased.

😀😀

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Seems like the Tories are now the party of the “working class” the “middle class” “ the upper class” and of course the “chinless toffs”.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

He might not be happy but his analysis, as always, is absolutely spot on.

I really do hope you continue to believe this because if so, your lot will never be voted into office again. You never learn, you never want to learn.

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24 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

He might not be happy but his analysis, as always, is absolutely spot on.

Is it really? So you think the Win was down to Tory tactics, nothing to do with  Corbyn wrapping  it and adding a bow?😀

If you say so😀

Edited by Van wink

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4 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I really do hope you continue to believe this because if so, your lot will never be voted into office again. You never learn, you never want to learn.

🤣 Clueless as ever @RTB - try shuffling your deck of stereotypes and deal again as you clearly have no idea who my 'lot' are otherwise you wouldn't be talking about them being voted in again.

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3 hours ago, Surfer said:

The votes are now in, so the final outcome for the country really does depend on the behavior of this new Tory government. Let’s hope that with the much broader base of support they gained in this election that regional re-development is a focus. 

I continue to be concerned about the protection of our institutions, our trade relations, the role of the media and social media communications, and ultimately our ability to hear the TRUTH, but those are discussions for another day. Today it is simply time to say congratulations to the newly elected Members of Parliament, and to wish the new Government the wisdom to create policies for the common good of the people of the United Kingdom. 

Meanwhile it’s karma for Jo Swinson and Lib Dems executing the political stupidity of forcing a Brexit focused General Election when they did, converting a potential narrow majority AGAINST Brexit into a massive mandate FOR Brexit. All because they were impatient with the WA as it finally started to wind its way through the formal Parliamentary review process. 

Agree completely.

Johnson has the chance to go down in history as a defining figure of 21st Century British history. He's an historian, he will understand this. I am cautiously optimistic that he will use his opportunity to the benefit of more of the country than Cameron/ Clegg's largely ideological attempts to reduce the state.

Biggest concerns are the Union + the environment. - However, not happy for nations to have their independence if they want it, and the WA seems to reduce the chances of sectarian difficulties. The environment is the biggest remaining concern - and even there, there are market and political pressures that make action likely (though not as radical).

Certainly karma for Swinson and the Lib Dems. They have been pivotal to British politics for the last decade and have been disastrous. Makes you wonder what they will do next/ what they are for? Perhaps the Orange Book will be revived and they will move to the right of the Conservatives - there were, after all for several years to the left of the Labour Party.

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