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The Brexit Thread

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Nothing better than wandering down and voting on the day. You can even abstain in person

I was a poll clerk for a while when I packed in work. It was OK until the Police Commissioner election when precisely 26 turned up so I said that was enough and handed in my pencil sharpener.

More postal votes would mean they could declare earlier and the TV people wouldn't be embarrassed by saying they didn't believe the exit polls. Probably have Graham Norton doing it this year with Gary Lineker doing the swingometer.

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Cor - pot kettle black. I went looking for your most recent expletives to quote but it seems they were already removed! I guessed at the time it didn't merit any response (obviously you had lost control to use such language). Nothing new there.

Frankly anybody who can't debate with at least reasonable language should be thrown off - that said it's always worth seeing the depths to which some people plummet.

 

One of his tricks he tried with me was making fun of my anxiety that I once shared on here. Fortunately, dealing with insecure and sad little losers like Dock the Boat is exceedingly easy compared to that 😀👍🏻

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https://unherd.com/2019/12/is-this-the-tories-real-manifesto/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

 

In 2017, the Conservative manifesto was… interesting. That didn’t work out for them, so this time round they went for boring instead.

With the polls narrowing there’s a question as to whether this approach will work any better. But if the current government is returned next week, might we see a more radical agenda emerge into the light?

If anyone in this administration has big ideas it’s Dominic Cummings. That much is clear from his blog, an in-depth guide to his thinking and influences. He stopped blogging when he followed Boris Johnson into Downing Street.

But last week there was a new post. This was mostly about Brexit and the election campaign, but there was an intriguing post-script:

“If you’re interested in ideas about how the new government could really change our economy for the better, making it more productive and fairer, you’ll find this paper interesting. It has many ideas about long-term productivity, science, technology, how to help regions outside the south-east and so on, by a professor of physics in Sheffield: A Resurgence of the Regions: rebuilding innovation capacity across the whole UK.”

The media love to portray Cummings as some kind of Bond villain, so is this professor — one Richard Jones — his mad scientist?

In a word, no. The media, finding no hint of insanity in Jones’ work, tried to make something of his political differences with Cummings instead. That’s a shame, because the real story is whether the paper, having been endorsed by Boris Johnson’s licenced thinker, represents the Conservatives’ real manifesto.

I’ve read it and agree with the following assessment by Stian Westlake, a Whitehall advisor on innovation policy:

“The mini-storm over Dom Cummings citing @RichardALJones’s recent paper on innovation policy prompted me to re-read it, and *boy* is it good. I agree with more or less everything, and as a bonus it is delightfully written…

“On a couple of occasions I’ve been asked by a new science minister ‘what should I read on innovation?’, and it was always quite a hard question to answer. But now, I’d just say ‘read that’.”

 

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19 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

One of his tricks he tried with me was making fun of my anxiety that I once shared on here. Fortunately, dealing with insecure and sad little losers like Dock the Boat is exceedingly easy compared to that 😀

His response was to CanaryDan - whose language I don't condone either.

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7 hours ago, Herman said:

The tories have cut the police force, the courts, the probation service and the prison service. They have been in charge for the last decade and are fully responsible for the current mess the country is in. 

Getting rid of FOM will not make the country safer. Getting rid of the deceitful charlatans who have cut the state to shreds may do though. 

Getting rid of the Jihadists in or midst will certainly make the country safer. Now sitting back and waiting for 'racist' from the usual suspects.

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Getting rid of the Jihadists in or midst will certainly make the country safer. Now sitting back and waiting for 'racist' from the usual suspects.

None of us want jihadists. But everything has occurred while the Tories have been in power. And until you face the facts that the old Tories of Law and Order have gone. It is all about shareholders and who backs their party financially. 
Even old Tories from Thatcher's cabinet are fed up with the latest mob.
The text below isn't from Guido or the Morning Star, its from the BBC after the Andrew Marr programme.

Claim 1: The government is putting extra money into counter-terrorist policing

Discussing measures to tackle terrorism in the wake of Friday's London Bridge attacks, Mr Johnson said: "We've obviously invested a great deal in counter-terrorism in the Spending Review. We put another £160m into counter-terrorism."

In September, Boris Johnson's government announced its spending plans for 2020-21. These only included increasing funding for counter-terrorism in line with inflation.

Those plans also include a pledge to continue for another year "the additional £160m announced at Budget 2018."

In fact, Budget 2018 only increased counter-terrorism funding by £59m or 8% on the previous year, as this written answer in the House of Commons shows.

The £160m is the difference between spending plans announced in 2015 and the figure eventually spent in 2019-20.

Claim 2: "Jeremy Corbyn has said he would disband MI5"

BBC News has asked the Conservatives for the evidence behind this claim, and is still awaiting a response. Labour has denied that Jeremy Corbyn wants to disband MI5.

The claim may relate to a campaign in 2015, run by a group called Socialist Campaign for a Labour Victory, which issued a statement with a number of demands including "disband MI5".

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell is still listed as a signatory on that website. He did admit to signing it according to press reports, though he claimed to have done so in error, and did not support disbanding MI5.

Current shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott signed a parliamentary motion in 1989 calling for the abolition of MI5, but has since changed her views.

Claim 3: "We have a Queen's Speech that was blocked by Parliament."

In fact the Queen's Speech was passed by 16 votes on 24 October.

Claim 4: The government was already moving to stop automatic early release

Mr Johnson said: "I also said in August that we would no longer allow the automatic early release of serious and violent offenders. And what we are doing now, is there is a bill that was in the Queen's Speech to prevent automatic early release."

The Queen's Speech included a Sentencing Bill, which would change "the automatic release point from halfway to the two-thirds point for adult offenders serving sentences of four years or more for serious violent or sexual offences".

Offenders considered "dangerous" already receive an Extended Determinate Sentence, of which around 250 were imposed last year. They are not considered for release until they have served two-thirds of their sentences.

Claim 5: The largest NHS investments in modern memory

Boris Johnson said: "...we are so determined to make huge investments in the NHS. The largest in modern memory. £34bn."

The Conservatives' plans do involve increasing funding for the NHS in England in cash terms by £34bn. However, accounting for inflation, the real increase would be £20.5bn by 2023-24.

At a 3.2% annual increase, it is less than the 6% average achieved by Labour governments between 1997 and 2010, according to the Health Foundation.

And most of that extra spending was already announced by the government before the election. The Conservative manifesto only pledges to increase health spending in 2023-24 by £2.9bn - just a third of one per centage point more than was already planned, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

Presentational grey line  

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2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Cor - pot kettle black. I went looking for your most recent expletives to quote but it seems they were already removed! I guessed at the time it didn't merit any response (obviously you had lost control to use such language). Nothing new there.

Frankly anybody who can't debate with at least reasonable language should be thrown off - that said it's always worth seeing the depths to which some people plummet.

 

Any one who admits to holding their nose in order to vote for a terrorist-sympathising political party under investigation by the Human Rights Commission holds no moral authority regardless of the level of condescension that they wish to employ. 

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2 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Any one who admits to holding their nose in order to vote for a terrorist-sympathising political party under investigation by the Human Rights Commission holds no moral authority regardless of the level of condescension that they wish to employ. 

Which party is that ? Seriously ? The Tories, Labour,  DUP,  Sinn Fein, Libdems, Brexit Party, EDL ?  Which one of these is proscribed or has had it's 'leader' gone to gaol? All bar one of these. The rest are all as one on terrorism although they may vary on the ways to fight it. If you can't grasp that there is very little hope for you.

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2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Getting rid of the Jihadists in or midst will certainly make the country safer. Now sitting back and waiting for 'racist' from the usual suspects.

None of us want jihadists. But everything has occurred while the Tories have been in power. And until you face the facts that the old Tories of Law and Order have gone. It is all about shareholders and who backs their party financially. 
Even old Tories from Thatcher's cabinet are fed up with the latest mob.
The text below isn't from Guido or the Morning Star, its from the BBC after the Andrew Marr programme.

Claim 1: The government is putting extra money into counter-terrorist policing

Discussing measures to tackle terrorism in the wake of Friday's London Bridge attacks, Mr Johnson said: "We've obviously invested a great deal in counter-terrorism in the Spending Review. We put another £160m into counter-terrorism."

In September, Boris Johnson's government announced its spending plans for 2020-21. These only included increasing funding for counter-terrorism in line with inflation.

Those plans also include a pledge to continue for another year "the additional £160m announced at Budget 2018."

In fact, Budget 2018 only increased counter-terrorism funding by £59m or 8% on the previous year, as this written answer in the House of Commons shows.

The £160m is the difference between spending plans announced in 2015 and the figure eventually spent in 2019-20.

Claim 2: "Jeremy Corbyn has said he would disband MI5"

BBC News has asked the Conservatives for the evidence behind this claim, and is still awaiting a response. Labour has denied that Jeremy Corbyn wants to disband MI5.

The claim may relate to a campaign in 2015, run by a group called Socialist Campaign for a Labour Victory, which issued a statement with a number of demands including "disband MI5".

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell is still listed as a signatory on that website. He did admit to signing it according to press reports, though he claimed to have done so in error, and did not support disbanding MI5.

Current shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott signed a parliamentary motion in 1989 calling for the abolition of MI5, but has since changed her views.

Claim 3: "We have a Queen's Speech that was blocked by Parliament."

In fact the Queen's Speech was passed by 16 votes on 24 October.

Claim 4: The government was already moving to stop automatic early release

Mr Johnson said: "I also said in August that we would no longer allow the automatic early release of serious and violent offenders. And what we are doing now, is there is a bill that was in the Queen's Speech to prevent automatic early release."

The Queen's Speech included a Sentencing Bill, which would change "the automatic release point from halfway to the two-thirds point for adult offenders serving sentences of four years or more for serious violent or sexual offences".

Offenders considered "dangerous" already receive an Extended Determinate Sentence, of which around 250 were imposed last year. They are not considered for release until they have served two-thirds of their sentences.

Claim 5: The largest NHS investments in modern memory

Boris Johnson said: "...we are so determined to make huge investments in the NHS. The largest in modern memory. £34bn."

The Conservatives' plans do involve increasing funding for the NHS in England in cash terms by £34bn. However, accounting for inflation, the real increase would be £20.5bn by 2023-24.

At a 3.2% annual increase, it is less than the 6% average achieved by Labour governments between 1997 and 2010, according to the Health Foundation.

And most of that extra spending was already announced by the government before the election. The Conservative manifesto only pledges to increase health spending in 2023-24 by £2.9bn - just a third of one per centage point more than was already planned, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

Presentational grey line  

The Conservatives are just as useless as the other parties in dealing with terrorism. More money to police, prison, or probation will not help. The fact that an armed response team was on the spot within five minutes of the alarm being raised tells you just how many undercover and armed response units are already on the ground. Terrorist events do not take place in Poland or Hungary because these countries do not admit these people into the country. That's how you deal with them.

Four hundred British fighters have returned from Syria and are back on our streets. Seventy-four convicted terrorists have been allowed out on early release. The authorities are currently investigating seven hundred suspects and have three thousand people on their watch lists. The problem of terrorists living in the UK is too big and too late. 

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23 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Any one who admits to holding their nose in order to vote for a terrorist-sympathising political party under investigation by the Human Rights Commission holds no moral authority regardless of the level of condescension that they wish to employ. 

All a bit desperate now, isn't it? 

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

 Terrorist events do not take place in Poland or Hungary because these countries do not admit these people into the country. That's how you deal with them.

Four hundred British fighters have returned from Syria and are back on our streets. Seventy-four convicted terrorists have been allowed out on early release. The authorities are currently investigating seven hundred suspects and have three thousand people on their watch lists. The problem of terrorists living in the UK is too big and too late. 

So your solution is not to allow "these people" into the country and then you say four hundred British fighters have returned from Syria. 

So they are British. What do you propose? Do you want to track the movement of all British people who leave the country so we won't allow them back in? Strip them of their nationality? If so, send them where? 

Do enlighten us how we put the genie back in the bottle.... 

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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

In a word, no. The media, finding no hint of insanity in Jones’ work, tried to make something of his political differences with Cummings instead. That’s a shame, because the real story is whether the paper, having been endorsed by Boris Johnson’s licenced thinker, represents the Conservatives’ real manifesto.

Call me old fashioned but I'd prefer to believe what is in the Tory manifesto is their actual plan. If they really believe in social equality and regional development, perhaps they could have put those policies in there?

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4 minutes ago, Surfer said:

So your solution is not to allow "these people" into the country and then you say four hundred British fighters have returned from Syria. 

So they are British. What do you propose? Do you want to track the movement of all British people who leave the country so we won't allow them back in? Strip them of their nationality? If so, send them where? 

Do enlighten us how we put the genie back in the bottle.... 

This is the root of problem with populist right wing - they jump at simple answers to complex issues. It always amuses me when some (not all) Brexiters talk of the 'Commonwealth' by example for immigration by which they mean Canada, Australia, NZ etc - but fail to completely realise that 94% of the Commonwealth by population is India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh (and other Africa / Asian countries). Neither do they grasp that many of these peoples that have indeed moved to the UK, encouraged at the time to fill job shortages, are now as legally British as you and me. It is the result of Empire. 

That some of these people have not integrated as well as would like and are gullible/susceptible to religious extremism (a bit like the the UK 400 years ago) is an issue which is why on balance I generally prefer European immigration as culturally similar rather than further afield for our unskilled jobs. That doesn't appear however to fit with a Brexiter argument!

As to Eastern Europe - we will have to turn a blind eye to their bloody relatively recent history and concerns as to human rights even today (and yes they do still have terrorism and ISIS recruits)  - the pogroms - some of my sadly now long passed family walking from Odessa to the UK as very young children. Some of us don't realise how lucky we are to live in a tolerant, decent and above all thoughtful society.

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Terrorist events do not take place in Poland or Hungary because these countries do not admit these people into the country

Probably because their foreign policy isn't sticking their noses into places they shouldn't. We no longer have the resources to think we are a power. It just this old romantic notion of Britain. Just like the old tabloid headlines. But while we stand shoulder to shoulder with the USA every time we become a target ourselves.

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That is as fake as Trump's tan. You are truly scraping the barrel today RTB 🤣🤣🤣

Edited by Herman

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11 minutes ago, Hoola Han Solo said:

You don’t seem to like women much.

There was a Muslim guy on telly the other day, one of those protesting about the Anderton Park school LBGT policy. He seemed to like women. "God created woman for man's pleasure!" he opined.

Obviously hasn't met my missus   :classic_wacko:

 

  • Haha 4

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

The complete and utter lunacy of the Left

 

brexit loon.JPG

 

 

This is a fake account - the Guardian has ALREADY forced it be removed "Pretending to be Guardian columnist"

It is however clearly targeted at those too dumb to realize (the lowest decile) who simply lap it unquestionably up and copy.

The real question is as to your motives in looking up up this deceitful rubbish in the first place! 

If you are going to be voice for this kind of fake news it really is time you departed this site.

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In virtually every case, the authorities like to capture terrorists alive. They believe by doing so, they might reveal any other plots, plot members and financiers etc.

The tabloid headings of Shoot Them is fine if there is no other way and there is a clear threat to the public and police. But it is only a hysterical attitude and doesn't really help in the fight against terrorism.

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Sadly this isn't a fake account.

As I understand it your son died because he believed early release for jihadists was justified because they could be rehabilitated Society is demanding these releases stop immediately A very pragmatic view, nothing vile about it. Grieve silently is my advice
Quote Tweet
 
JI9l80Tk_normal.png
 
David Merritt
 
@butwhatifitsall
· 19h
Don’t use my son’s death, and his and his colleague’s photos - to promote your vile propaganda. Jack stood against everything you stand for - hatred, division, ignorance. https://twitter.com/DMReporter/sta

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Westminster voting intention: CON: 42% (+1) LAB: 35% (+1) LDEM: 13% (-) BREX: 3% (-1)

ICM Research.

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The irony if Trump opens his gob, puts his size 15 in it and BJ slips below the 6% line. He won’t be able to resist saying something.

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13 hours ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

Nothing safer than voting on the day of an election. Postal votes are for days/weeks in the control of a politically run council, which has ballot boxes seals, if they bother with it, and the machinery, personal information and your signature in electronic form, to falsefy any voting paper is they so like.

 

I think you're right, but I currently live a 2500 mile round trip from my polling station 

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8 hours ago, Van wink said:

The irony if Trump opens his gob, puts his size 15 in it and BJ slips below the 6% line. He won’t be able to resist saying something.

All of the country has their finger's crossed, for different reasons. 🤣

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10 hours ago, Herman said:

Westminster voting intention: CON: 42% (+1) LAB: 35% (+1) LDEM: 13% (-) BREX: 3% (-1)

ICM Research.

Kantar poll today

44/32

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