The Positive Brexit Thread

[Van wink 2,994]

23 minutes ago, Herman said:

I've said there is a problem ian. I've read Jewish Labour people saying there is a problem. I think Labour should have destroyed it a long time ago. What I don't like is the blatant hypocrisy of Austin et al. 

Don't vote for Labour because of their anti Jewish stance. But vote for the party that brought us the Windrush scandal, the hostile environment, islamophobia and a racist leader. 

The point here Hermy is that Austin recognises that there are lots of problems with the Tories ( as we all do ) yet despite that .....despite that.....he still sees them as less of a threat to our Country than Corbyn.

There are a lot of moderate potential Labour voters out there, including myself, who could never vote for the party now that it has been taken over by the left. I suspect you are also in that position.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Van wink

[canarydan23 4,060]

14 minutes ago, Van wink said:

The point here Hermy is that Austin recognises that there are lots of problems with the Tories ( as we all do ) yet despite that .....despite that.....he still sees them as less of a threat to our Country than Corbyn.

He sees them as less of a threat to Jewish people, some quarter of a million people within a country of 65 million. And bearing in mind that a portion of those don't buy that the son of an attendee of the Battle of Cable Street, who has signed countless EDMs condemning antisemitism, who boasts a supportive organisation founded by a Jew and who has spent his life campaigning against the far-right who make Jewish people a target, then that quarter of a million number needs to shrink somewhat.

So, because of a perceived threat to 150,000 odd Jewish people (and it is only perceived), he says don't vote Corbyn, vote for the party who is an actual threat (see the massive spike in instances of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hate crime in recent years) to Muslims, who make up over 3,000,000 people in the UK.

And then to do that whilst fronting an anti-extremist group? Rank hypocrisy; he serves his own narrow interests and nothing else.

But it is getting cold, so I understand if you'd rather keep the wool over your eyes.

Edited November 8, 2019 by canarydan23

[SwindonCanary 455]

Lord Sugar

 

@Lord_Sugar

·

13h

 

Mr Corbyn lives in an expensive house in Islington . I guess if you tot up all his assets he is worth more than £1m. He is a hypocrite and is peddling a robin hood story and fooling people like you . There was poverty under Labour back in the days I was referring to .

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Lord Sugar

 

@Lord_Sugar

·

13h

 

Mr Corbyn lives in an expensive house in Islington . I guess if you tot up all his assets he is worth more than £1m. He is a hypocrite and is peddling a robin hood story and fooling people like you . There was poverty under Labour back in the days I was referring to .

A multi-millionaire who cannot comprehend why someone with wealth would want to help improve the lives of poor people.

[Hairy Canary 704]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

A multi-millionaire who cannot comprehend why someone with wealth would want to help improve the lives of poor people.

I don't find myself agreeing with you too often CD but totally agree with this. 

[Ian 1,129]

15 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

He sees them as less of a threat to Jewish people, some quarter of a million people within a country of 65 million. And bearing in mind that a portion of those don't buy that the son of an attendee of the Battle of Cable Street, who has signed countless EDMs condemning antisemitism, who boasts a supportive organisation founded by a Jew and who has spent his life campaigning against the far-right who make Jewish people a target, then that quarter of a million number needs to shrink somewhat.

So, because of a perceived threat to 150,000 odd Jewish people (and it is only perceived), he says don't vote Corbyn, vote for the party who is an actual threat (see the massive spike in instances of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hate crime in recent years) to Muslims, who make up over 3,000,000 people in the UK.

And then to do that whilst fronting an anti-extremist group? Rank hypocrisy; he serves his own narrow interests and nothing else.

But it is getting cold, so I understand if you'd rather keep the wool over your eyes.

Fascinating analysis, but to swing-voters like myself it simply appears that someone who has been affiliated strongly with Labour for decades has actually actively advised people to vote for the Conservatives over that party, due to complete lack of belief in the leadership. More than that, he considers the direction of leadership (and therefore the party in general) to be dangerous for a religious minority in the UK.

You can analyse that in whatever way you see fit, besmirch his character, accuse him of acting in bad faith with extreme hypocrisy; whatever it takes for you to try and palm this off as a bit of a non-issue, but I think it is absolutely staggering that the divide in the Labour party seems to be so great, it is now only really appealing to the more hardcore left-wingers, even among its own MPs.

As for the population of Jewish people in this Country vs the Muslim population - what on Earth has that got to do with anything at all? Are you suggesting that the smaller minorities are not worth MPs making a stand over, or what? Very odd.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Ian
typo

[Mello Yello 2,293]

Weird innit......If you lose your 'momentum' you could be a winner.......

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, Ian said:

Fascinating analysis, but to swing-voters like myself it simply appears that someone who has been affiliated strongly with Labour for decades years has actually actively advised people to vote for the Conservatives over that party, due to complete lack of belief in the leadership. More than that, he considers the direction of leadership (and therefore the party in general) to be dangerous for a religious minority in the UK.

You can analyse that in whatever way you see fit, besmirch his character, accuse him of acting in bad faith with extreme hypocrisy; whatever it takes for you to try and palm this off as a bit of a non-issue, but I think it is absolutely staggering that the divide in the Labour party seems to be so great, it is now only really appealing to the more hardcore left-wingers, even among its own MPs.

As for the population of Jewish people in this Country vs the Muslim population - what on Earth has that got to do with anything at all? Are you suggesting that the smaller minorities are not worth MPs making a stand over, or what? Very odd.

You don't see anything peculiar or any hypocrisy in a man advocating voting for a party that is a clear and present threat to over 3 million people in this country because of a perceived threat to 250,000?

Here's a Conservative Jew talking some sense on Corbyn, "I've never detected so much as a whiff of antisemitism".

The idea that a Jeremy Corbyn Premiership would threaten Jewish people in this country is laughable. That doesn't mean I don't think that there is an issue within the Labour Party that needs tackling, as there is in all political parties. The Labour Party has more than doubled in size since Corbyn became leader, so what was a handful of antisemites in Labour has become a slightly larger handful of antisemites in Labour. There is also a fashion of believing in bullsh*t Jewish conspiracy theories inherent in sections of the hard-left, and a percentage of the massive influx of new Labour Party members has come from those sections. The Labour Party have, and by extension Corbyn has, not tackled the issue as robustly as they could and should have.

But that does not make Labour or Corbyn an antisemitic or racist party, and to have that accusation leveled by people considering voting Tory is a logical contortionism that would shame even some of the clowns on here.

[TCCANARY 263]

23 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Lord Sugar

 

@Lord_Sugar

·

13h

 

Mr Corbyn lives in an expensive house in Islington . I guess if you tot up all his assets he is worth more than £1m. He is a hypocrite and is peddling a robin hood story and fooling people like you . There was poverty under Labour back in the days I was referring to .

It would be very difficult to not live in an expensive house in Islington. I expect his alottment is also worth a few quid as well.

Jeremy may have bought it when house prices were low and it's not his fault that they've gone up.

What do you want him to do, sell up and go and live in a shed?

 

[Ian 1,129]

Just now, canarydan23 said:

You don't see anything peculiar or any hypocrisy in a man advocating voting for a party that is a clear and present threat to over 3 million people in this country because of a perceived threat to 250,000?

Here's a Conservative Jew talking some sense on Corbyn, "I've never detected so much as a whiff of antisemitism".

The idea that a Jeremy Corbyn Premiership would threaten Jewish people in this country is laughable. That doesn't mean I don't think that there is an issue within the Labour Party that needs tackling, as there is in all political parties. The Labour Party has more than doubled in size since Corbyn became leader, so what was a handful of antisemites in Labour has become a slightly larger handful of antisemites in Labour. There is also a fashion of believing in bullsh*t Jewish conspiracy theories inherent in sections of the hard-left, and a percentage of the massive influx of new Labour Party members has come from those sections. The Labour Party have, and by extension Corbyn has, not tackled the issue as robustly as they could and should have.

But that does not make Labour or Corbyn an antisemitic or racist party, and to have that accusation leveled by people considering voting Tory is a logical contortionism that would shame even some of the clowns on here.

Yes, I am sure you can find hypocrisy in everyone's actions; just like I'm sure there is rank levels of hypocrisy in a lot of MPs currently serving their constituents. But that's not really my point.

My personal opinion (not that it matters), is that Corbyn is probably not an anti-semite, although some of his past associations are questionable at best. I am willing to accept that he is probably a naive career protest-politician whose heart is in the right place, but is part of such a weak leadership that he is unable to get a handle on the perceived antisemitism in the party, and therefore is tacitly enabling such opinions. As to your point about the threat being laughable; I assume that as part of the non-Jewish majority, I am not sure that you and I get to decide if this is the case?

Whatever the validity of Austin's arguments and beliefs are, the fact is that an established, long-serving MP affiliated with the Labour party for multiple decades (not just a recent MP) is taking a course of action that I can't personally remember any precedent for, and is citing that this it is because of the current leadership and direction.

Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of his actions, the big picture is that if Corbyn et. al can't even appeal to the more centrist politicians in his own party, you have to ask how on Earth he is going to appeal to the more centrist voters throughout the Country?

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, Ian said:

Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of his actions, the big picture is that if Corbyn et. al can't even appeal to the more centrist politicians in his own party, you have to ask how on Earth he is going to appeal to the more centrist voters throughout the Country?

I don't think a man who used the expenses system like a cash cow, milking it for every penny he could, purchasing a stereo system when he realised he had a few quid left that he could squeeze out, is representative of many voters, whether they are centrist, left or right, to be perfectly honest. He's an embittered, stale man unhappy at the direction "his" party has democratically chosen to take and is now fantastically throwing his toys out of the pram.

Edited November 8, 2019 by canarydan23

[Icecream Snow 761]

19 hours ago, ricardo said:

Any Polar Bears on the A11?

They're probably stuck queuing at the traffic lights at Barton Mills.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

A multi-millionaire who cannot comprehend why someone with wealth would want to help improve the lives of poor people.

A multi-millionaire who was born in a council house. A man who started life with nothing but through hard work and perseverance achieved success. In becoming successful, employed thousands of people and paid millions in taxes to support the poor.

 

All I see here is the same old politics of envy that has followed Labour around like a bad smell ever since their formation. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Rock The Boat said:

A multi-millionaire who was born in a council house. A man who started life with nothing but through hard work and perseverance achieved success. In becoming successful, employed thousands of people and paid millions in taxes to support the poor.

 

All I see here is the same old politics of envy that has followed Labour around like a bad smell ever since their formation. 

Ah yes, he selflessly employed thousands of people and selflessly paid taxes to help the poor.

Moron's gonna moron.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Ah yes, he selflessly employed thousands of people and selflessly paid taxes to help the poor.

Moron's gonna moron.

You need to point out where I used the word 'selflessly'. As a country we need entrepreneurs like Lord Sugar to create the wealth so that we can provide benefits to the needy. The top 1% of income earners pay 27% of income tax. If you drive those people offshore, then that 27% of tax will have to come from your pay packet. I hope you are prepared to lose that - and more - to pay for all of Corbyn's treats because the rich will have long gone.

Just admit that you hate rich people.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Rock The Boat

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Ian said:

Yes, I am sure you can find hypocrisy in everyone's actions; just like I'm sure there is rank levels of hypocrisy in a lot of MPs currently serving their constituents. But that's not really my point.

My personal opinion (not that it matters), is that Corbyn is probably not an anti-semite, although some of his past associations are questionable at best. I am willing to accept that he is probably a naive career protest-politician whose heart is in the right place, but is part of such a weak leadership that he is unable to get a handle on the perceived antisemitism in the party, and therefore is tacitly enabling such opinions. As to your point about the threat being laughable; I assume that as part of the non-Jewish majority, I am not sure that you and I get to decide if this is the case?

Whatever the validity of Austin's arguments and beliefs are, the fact is that an established, long-serving MP affiliated with the Labour party for multiple decades (not just a recent MP) is taking a course of action that I can't personally remember any precedent for, and is citing that this it is because of the current leadership and direction.

Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of his actions, the big picture is that if Corbyn et. al can't even appeal to the more centrist politicians in his own party, you have to ask how on Earth he is going to appeal to the more centrist voters throughout the Country?

This is not just about anti Semitic factions within Labour, it’s the whole question of whether Corbyn and the Hard left are fit to run our Country-

"I think at every opportunity he backs our country's enemies, whether that's the IRA during the Troubles or calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends, or parroting Putin when he sent hitmen to our country, to Salisbury.

"I don't think he loves this country, I don't think he's a patriot. I've thought about this long and hard."

Mr Austin became emotional as he said there will be "lifelong friends who are probably never going to speak to me after this".

The former communities and local government minister added: "It's heartbreaking, I think what's happened to the Labour Party is a disaster, it's a disaster for our country.

"I disagree with lots of things the Conservatives have done but I wouldn't say they're unfit to lead the country - so I've got to be honest about it."

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

You need to point out where I used the word 'selflessly'. As a country we need entrepreneurs like Lord Sugar to create the wealth so that we can provide benefits to the needy. The top 1% of income earners pay 27% of income tax. If you drive those people offshore, then that 27% of tax will have to come from your pay packet. I hope you are prepared to lose that - and more - to pay for all of Corbyn's treats because the rich will have long gone.

Just admit that you hate rich people.

And entrepreneurs need a healthy, productive workforce in order to make their millions. Corbyn is proposing changes in the tax structure so that the super wealthy will contribute more and radical changes to the economy that will ensure said workforce receive a larger chunk of the trappings of success.

You also need a bit more pride in our country, RTB. Do you think it's that much of a sh!thole that wealthy people will only live here for its favourable taxes? Why do you hate our country, RTB? Where is your patriotism?

And if we lived in a meritocracy, your argument about a flight of the wealthy might have some legs; however, it's rare that the most talented individual in a company is the CEO. If they disappear, then they will create opportunities for others to fill their positions, take their salaries and pay their taxes. And as for the super rich and the non-dom w@nkers, they barely pay any tax here anyway so won't be leaving. In America this summer twenty super wealthy people, including your mate George Soros and Abigail Disney, signed a letter asking to be taxed more. It's just the nefarious and the greedy for whom no amount of cash will ever be enough that we might lose, and well, boo-fu(king-hoo, don't let the door hit your @rse on the way out.

And the proposed corporation tax rises from Corbyn are to put it up to 26%. That's less than Italy, France and Germany. And lower than several years of Thatcher's administration. Bl0ody communist.

Just admit it that you hate poor people.

[Ian 1,129]

10 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

You need to point out where I used the word 'selflessly'. As a country we need entrepreneurs like Lord Sugar to create the wealth so that we can provide benefits to the needy. The top 1% of income earners pay 27% of income tax. If you drive those people offshore, then that 27% of tax will have to come from your pay packet. I hope you are prepared to lose that - and more - to pay for all of Corbyn's treats because the rich will have long gone.

Just admit that you hate rich people.

It's time we overthrow capitalism. Bring Venezuela over to the UK!

[canarydan23 4,060]

12 minutes ago, Ian said:

It's time we overthrow capitalism. Bring Venezuela over to the UK!

Anyone else looking for Venezuela to complete their right-wing cliche Bingo Card?!

[Ian 1,129]

Just now, canarydan23 said:

Anyone else looking for Venezuela to complete their right-wing cliche Bingo Card?!

Yes, I was being tongue-in-cheek. Talking of cliches; "he doesn't agree with me, therefore he's right wing" isn't exactly too thoughtful is it?

[ricardo 7,395]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Anyone else looking for Venezuela to complete their right-wing cliche Bingo Card?!

Well its hardly the ideal Marxist poster boy is it?😂

[Ian 1,129]

15 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

And entrepreneurs need a healthy, productive workforce in order to make their millions. Corbyn is proposing changes in the tax structure so that the super wealthy will contribute more and radical changes to the economy that will ensure said workforce receive a larger chunk of the trappings of success.

You also need a bit more pride in our country, RTB. Do you think it's that much of a sh!thole that wealthy people will only live here for its favourable taxes? Why do you hate our country, RTB? Where is your patriotism?

And if we lived in a meritocracy, your argument about a flight of the wealthy might have some legs; however, it's rare that the most talented individual in a company is the CEO. If they disappear, then they will create opportunities for others to fill their positions, take their salaries and pay their taxes. And as for the super rich and the non-dom w@nkers, they barely pay any tax here anyway so won't be leaving. In America this summer twenty super wealthy people, including your mate George Soros and Abigail Disney, signed a letter asking to be taxed more. It's just the nefarious and the greedy for whom no amount of cash will ever be enough that we might lose, and well, boo-fu(king-hoo, don't let the door hit your @rse on the way out.

And the proposed corporation tax rises from Corbyn are to put it up to 26%. That's less than Italy, France and Germany. And lower than several years of Thatcher's administration. Bl0ody communist.

Just admit it that you hate poor people.

So you think that putting up income tax on those earning over £80k and corporation tax up by 7%, and taxing the super wealthy is the answer to everything then?

I don't think anybody would have much of a problem with the "super-wealthy" paying more tax, but would that be enough to suddenly transform us into a "fair" society?

What impact do you think raising taxes on those earning more than 80k and corp. tax up to 26% would have? How many percentage points of corporation tax did the usual dodgers (Facebook/Amazon etc) actually pay?

The actual impact would be felt by small businesses, with shareholders who pay themselves via dividends. As a small business owner, the increase in both of those two costs would almost certainly guarantee that we couldn't afford both of the lower-earners we currently employ, so one or more would have to find other work. This would obviously then impact on the overall level of work we could undertake, and as such, tax we would contribute back to the economy.

It's just not as simple as saying "raise corporation tax" to help the poor.
 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Taxation has always been the real elephant in the room.

Of course the very wealthy think they pay their fair share. And of course the less wealthy think they don't pay enough.

And increasing personal taxation does bring howls of distress from the minimum wage earners to the hedge fund managers.

Of course there might be another way but it will be unpopular form the north and south of income.

There is ample evidence that there are tax loopholes that benefit those wishing to avoid paying too much tax. So close them.

At the same time, there are people claiming benefits who are robbing those who deserve it. So stop them.

Have a go at those two areas and see what income is accrued and expenditure saved and then look at taxation.

I say this as a socialist. But I cannot in good faith not admit that the welfare system is being robbed blind by some who have never contributed a penny. And that is not why the system was brought in. It is not an income. It is a loan you don't have to pay back if you find yourself in a spot of bother.

[Herman 9,765]

2 hours ago, TCCANARY said:

It would be very difficult to not live in an expensive house in Islington. I expect his alottment is also worth a few quid as well.

Jeremy may have bought it when house prices were low and it's not his fault that they've gone up.

What do you want him to do, sell up and go and live in a shed?

 

Aye, my auntie is nearly a millionaire, on paper, just by owning a 3 bed in Finchley. It's a rubbish argument by Sugar. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

20 minutes ago, Ian said:

Yes, I was being tongue-in-cheek. Talking of cliches; "he doesn't agree with me, therefore he's right wing" isn't exactly too thoughtful is it?

No it's not, which is why I didn't say it.

 

13 minutes ago, Ian said:

So you think that putting up income tax on those earning over £80k and corporation tax up by 7%, and taxing the super wealthy is the answer to everything then?

Answer to everything? Put the straw down, chap. I do, however, believe that an increase in tax on those that can afford it most is a preferable alternative to slashing spending and forcing people to go without essential services. Personally I would also look at forms of taxing wealth as opposed to income, perhaps even instead of in some instances.

 

19 minutes ago, Ian said:

The actual impact would be felt by small businesses, with shareholders who pay themselves via dividends. As a small business owner, the increase in both of those two costs would almost certainly guarantee that we couldn't afford both of the lower-earners we currently employ, so one or more would have to find other work. This would obviously then impact on the overall level of work we could undertake, and as such, tax we would contribute back to the economy.

I'm very intrigued, what small business is yours that would be heavily impacted by a corporation tax and an increase in income tax above £80k? What sort of profits are you making?! Are you telling me that if you had to pay an extra 7% corporation tax on your profits you'd suddenly have to look at job losses!? And if you were earning £100,000, you'd currently pay £27,500 in income tax. Under Corbyn's income tax proposals you would be paying £28,500 in income tax. You'd have £83.33 less in your monthly pay packet.

You'd need to make people redundant. Under those circumstances. Whilst your small business is making a profit.

I'm smelling something that comes out of a bull's backside.

[Van wink 2,994]

36 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Taxation has always been the real elephant in the room.

Of course the very wealthy think they pay their fair share. And of course the less wealthy think they don't pay enough.

And increasing personal taxation does bring howls of distress from the minimum wage earners to the hedge fund managers.

Of course there might be another way but it will be unpopular form the north and south of income.

There is ample evidence that there are tax loopholes that benefit those wishing to avoid paying too much tax. So close them.

At the same time, there are people claiming benefits who are robbing those who deserve it. So stop them.

Have a go at those two areas and see what income is accrued and expenditure saved and then look at taxation.

I say this as a socialist. But I cannot in good faith not admit that the welfare system is being robbed blind by some who have never contributed a penny. And that is not why the system was brought in. It is not an income. It is a loan you don't have to pay back if you find yourself in a spot of bother.

Good post KG.

[Bill 1,788]

eat your heart out Jools, RTB/hand crank, Swindo, mad moy, Ricardo...this is the way to lie

a man born to such talent, rambling on with lie after lie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7NFfUOJwDE

Seems entirely clear that the Prime Minister does not understand his own Brexit proposal (for a hard border in the Irish Sea) *at all* Jonathan Portes, a professor of economics and public policy at King’s College, London "I’m incredulous at the suggestion, by anyone, that he ever did! Hands up anyone stupid enough to think he did! I only see Mr Johnson’s hand."

"The Brexit secretary, Stephen Barclay, told the House of Lords last month that businesses would need to complete “exit summary declarations” when sending shipments from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK.

Asked whether he was saying the government would not enforce such declarations, Johnson said: “That’s right – we’re one UK territory, we need to get this deal done, get it over the line and take the country forward.”

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, said Johnson “either doesn’t understand the deal he negotiated, or isn’t telling the truth. Probably both”.

any wonder the bigots are so desperate to smear Corbyn if this is the level of competence from Johnson.

 

 

[Bill 1,788]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Well its hardly the ideal Marxist poster boy is it?😂

probably because what is happening in Venezula has nothing to do with 'marxism' of what Marx wrote

but then I should imagine you think North Korea is democratic because it calls itself

the Democratic People's Republic of Korea 🙄

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Well its hardly the ideal Marxist poster boy is it?😂

Marxist poster boy!

I'm a looney left away from all four corners!

[SwindonCanary 455]

4 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Lord Sugar

 

@Lord_Sugar

·

13h

 

Mr Corbyn lives in an expensive house in Islington . I guess if you tot up all his assets he is worth more than £1m. He is a hypocrite and is peddling a robin hood story and fooling people like you . There was poverty under Labour back in the days I was referring to .

You've all got the 'wrong end of the stick'  It was Lord Sugar in reply to Corbyn saying he doesn't know a millionaire, When he is one himself !