Football matches an easy target?

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="T"]I was out drinking with a Muslim immigrant on Friday night. They were the first to tell me the news. I appreciate that some people who were brought up in another time or have a low intelligence, are poorly brought up or are poorly educated may find it difficult to grasp and are scared of different people but ignorant hatred will only contribute to the problem not solve it. Judge the person not their race or religion.[/quote]I''m afraid your muslim friend was either lying to you or was an extremely moderate muslim because muslims aren''t allowed to drink alcohol. But, I agree with what you are saying, got a muslim chap who runs the local corner shop to me, really nice guy who I have a lot of time for, often spend ages chatting to him. It is wrong to judge somebody on their race or religion, but at the same time, we are also getting judged by our race or religion, there are a lot of muslims in the UK who are very racist towards english white people, and vice versa, difference is, they''d never get called racist.

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

[quote user="ricardo"]Opinion polls would suggest that a very unhealthy proportion do indeed hold these views. Try drawing a cartoon of Mohammed and tell me how it goes.[/quote]How much constitutes an ''unhealthy proportion''? I believe polls showed that a large majority of Muslims found the depictions of the prophet to be offensive - but a very small minority approved of the reprisals meted out in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks. In any case, having some sympathy with terrorists who carry out such atrocities is very, very different from being prepared to carry out or even to openly condone such actions.

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]The fact that you keep blaming this on political correctness makes me think that you support UKIP perhaps?[/quote]I agree with their stance on Europe yes, but that''s all they had going for them, so no, I voted conservatives.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Does it say anywhere in the Koran, that people are entitled to their own opinion, and that must be respected?

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="ricardo"]Opinion polls would suggest that a very unhealthy proportion do indeed hold these views. Try drawing a cartoon of Mohammed and tell me how it goes.[/quote]How much constitutes an ''unhealthy proportion''? I believe polls showed that a large majority of Muslims found the depictions of the prophet to be offensive - but a very small minority approved of the reprisals meted out in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks. In any case, having some sympathy with terrorists who carry out such atrocities is very, very different from being prepared to carry out or even to openly condone such actions.[/quote]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlIn my opinion, British Muslims need to be more vocal in denouncing these terror attacks, thousands are quick to take to the streets when a picture of the Prophet Mohammed is published yet none take to the streets when these terror attacks occur.You insult the Prophet (who was a murdering paedophile btw) around them and your life would be at risk.

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="Crabbycanary3"]Does it say anywhere in the Koran, that people are entitled to their own opinion, and that must be respected?[/quote]No, it say''s non believers will have their heads striked off.

[Crafty Canary 508]

Deterrence is more than just about nuclear weapons. As he is sympathetic towards the IRA and Hamas and felt that it was wrong to kill Jihadi John rather than arrest him and put him on trial (quite how an arrest was to be achieved was''nt explained) I wouldn''t be surprised to find him making a case for ISIS. I wouldn''t wish the safety of the nation to be put in the hands of a error its sympathiser.

[Crafty Canary 508]

Terrorist sympathiser. This predictive text is a pain in the arras.

[mrs miggins 0]

Many do indeed hold these views Miggins, there are very many conservative Muslims who have a very strict interpretation of the Koran and detest what is seen as the immorality of western culture( maybe with some degree of justification). It is quite possible for these extreme views to move towards a desire to see Western civilisation replaced.

----------------------------------

Indeed Vanwink, but thats not what we are talking about is it. We were talking about the judgement of a person, in particular a muslim. The point was - should we assume that when you see a muslim coming into the country, do they hold the view that for example, homosexuals should be slaughtered along with apostates? Ricardo came back with the answer;

"opinion polls would suggest that a very unhealthy proportion do indeed hold these views" implying, as he implied previously, that we should indeed think that when we see a muslim, because of their religion, they automatically hold these view. (which imo is of course ridiculous - bigoted by its very nature).

He then mentioned the Charlie Hebdo incident, but I don''t actually know what his point was.

As an atheist myself I do see religion as a problem in that it contradicts science and reason. I particularly despise the religion of Islam because it makes very large claims for itself, e.g. it claims to be the last and final religion - therefore it by definition is the ultimate god and power. It''s text are both beautiful and disgraceful depending which page and chapter you''re reading (a bit like the bible but more intense).

The problem with Islam is that it is interpreted in so many different ways by different groups of people e.g. Sunni, Shia, Kurdish etc, therefore because they are reading and interpreting the same text, there is no right or wrong view of Islam; Islam is a book of Bigotry, Tolerance, Brutality, Kindness etc, contradictions. Therefore there can be no spokesperson for Muslims. If a muslim was to come out and say that the terrorists are not ''true'' muslims, they''d be lying - who are they to say what a true muslim is or isn''t. Therefore who am I, Ricardo or anyone else to say what muslims are/aren''t other than the individual identity of that particular person.

Although many are (as I used to be) surprised that more muslims aren''t coming out attacking the terrorists, I don''t know exactly what we''d expect them to say, other that the obvious ''isn''t this awful.''

They can come out with ''these terrorists aren''t true muslims,'' but as stated before, they''d be lying.

[mrs miggins 0]

Have you actually read anything that Corbyn has said about ISIS crafty?

[Crafty Canary 508]

Does a leopard change its spots ?

[mrs miggins 0]

So haven''t read any of his plans, yet criticise his plans. Do you work for the Sun ;)

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="Crafty Canary"]Terrorist sympathiser. This predictive text is a pain in the arras.[/quote]

 

In that case, I''m glad that I don''t have one of those. [:D]

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

[quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="ricardo"]Opinion polls would suggest that a very unhealthy proportion do indeed hold these views. Try drawing a cartoon of Mohammed and tell me how it goes.[/quote]How much constitutes an ''unhealthy proportion''? I believe polls showed that a large majority of Muslims found the depictions of the prophet to be offensive - but a very small minority approved of the reprisals meted out in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks. In any case, having some sympathy with terrorists who carry out such atrocities is very, very different from being prepared to carry out or even to openly condone such actions.[/quote]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlIn my opinion, British Muslims need to be more vocal in denouncing these terror attacks, thousands are quick to take to the streets when a picture of the Prophet Mohammed is published yet none take to the streets when these terror attacks occur.You insult the Prophet (who was a murdering paedophile btw) around them and your life would be at risk.[/quote]The Prophet lived about 1,300 years ago. You are judging him based on 21st-century Western norms. I''ll just say now that I am an atheist with no sympathy towards Islam or those who twist it to fulfil evil agendas, but it does concern me the way that people seem very keen to present Islam as a religion that defaults to barbarism and intolerance.I do agree that a lot of people would be reassured if there was a visible and heartfelt response from the British Muslim community against these attacks; however, one can hardly blame the community for recoiling in fear due the hatespeak meted out against their religion by people who don''t even come close to understanding it.

[Herman 9,842]

[quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Crabbycanary3"]Does it say anywhere in the Koran, that people are entitled to their own opinion, and that must be respected?[/quote]No, it say''s non believers will have their heads striked off. [/quote]Does it? Have you read the book or are you just falling into the same trap that a lot of uneducated Muslims are?

[A Load of Squit 5,224]

[quote user="Crafty Canary"]Does a leopard change its spots ?[/quote]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/eb4f6f88-e169-11df-90b7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3rZz63PUc

Actually, a leopard can change its spots

[Herman 9,842]

[quote user="Crafty Canary"]Deterrence is more than just about nuclear weapons. As he is sympathetic towards the IRA and Hamas and felt that it was wrong to kill Jihadi John rather than arrest him and put him on trial (quite how an arrest was to be achieved was''nt explained) I wouldn''t be surprised to find him making a case for ISIS. I wouldn''t wish the safety of the nation to be put in the hands of a error its sympathiser.[/quote]You just read utter rubbish from the tabloids and believe every single thing that backs up your ignorant views. You aren''t much different from the brainwashed that carry out these atrocities, just not violent, thank God.

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="ricardo"]Opinion polls would suggest that a very unhealthy proportion do indeed hold these views. Try drawing a cartoon of Mohammed and tell me how it goes.[/quote]How much constitutes an ''unhealthy proportion''? I believe polls showed that a large majority of Muslims found the depictions of the prophet to be offensive - but a very small minority approved of the reprisals meted out in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks. In any case, having some sympathy with terrorists who carry out such atrocities is very, very different from being prepared to carry out or even to openly condone such actions.[/quote]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.htmlIn my opinion, British Muslims need to be more vocal in denouncing these terror attacks, thousands are quick to take to the streets when a picture of the Prophet Mohammed is published yet none take to the streets when these terror attacks occur.You insult the Prophet (who was a murdering paedophile btw) around them and your life would be at risk.[/quote]The Prophet lived about 1,300 years ago. You are judging him based on 21st-century Western norms. I''ll just say now that I am an atheist with no sympathy towards Islam or those who twist it to fulfil evil agendas, but it does concern me the way that people seem very keen to present Islam as a religion that defaults to barbarism and intolerance.I do agree that a lot of people would be reassured if there was a visible and heartfelt response from the British Muslim community against these attacks; however, one can hardly blame the community for recoiling in fear due the hatespeak meted out against their religion by people who don''t even come close to understanding it.[/quote]And do you not think that the grooming of children by asian gangs across the country went hand in hand with the religion? ISIS follow the Koran to it''s truest form, which has no place in modern society as it''s a stone age religion. The muslims living and coming to Britain should be educated first before being allowed in to a modern society, raping children and treating woman as a second class citizen is not acceptable in western society.

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="Herman "][quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Crabbycanary3"]Does it say anywhere in the Koran, that people are entitled to their own opinion, and that must be respected?[/quote]No, it say''s non believers will have their heads striked off. [/quote]Does it? Have you read the book or are you just falling into the same trap that a lot of uneducated Muslims are?[/quote]

So

when you meet those who disbelieve, strike [their] necks

until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their

bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the

war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had

willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He

ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And

those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their

deeds.

Exact quote. The Qu''ran needs modernising. Even moderate British muslims have admitted that.

[Van wink 2,994]

That''s a very full and well considered post Miggins and I thank you for it.

I was just jumping in a bit on your discussion so if I missed the point apologies.

The point I made about conservative Muslims is however an I issue that fits with the flavour of this discussion IMO.

Ricardo will speak for himself, but I think you have exaggerated what he said, I don''t think there was an implication that all Muslims hold these views, just that some do and we do well to be aware of that.

[mrs miggins 0]

ISIS follow the Koran to it''s truest form, which has no place in modern society as it''s a stone age religion.

------------------

By saying ''truest form'' its very misleading because it frames what Islam is.

ISIS have taken the literal meanings from the God who they truly believe in - which is very rational if you truly believe in that God. However, they''ve also left a lot of things rest in the book. I hope some have watched the link to the Jurgen Todenhofer interview. He asked ISIS- ''The Quran is a book of Mercy, where is your mercy....The ISIS fighter said, there is no time for mercy.''

As I stated before, no muslim on this planet is living Islam in it''s truest form. (mainly due to its contradictions).

I do wonder when and ff Islam is going to catch up to the 21st Century like a lot of Christianity has. My guess is; don''t hold your breath.

[Van wink 2,994]

Unfortunately they have not moved forwards since the crusades.

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

[quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Feedthewolf"]The Prophet lived about 1,300 years ago. You are judging him based on 21st-century Western norms. I''ll just say now that I am an atheist with no sympathy towards Islam or those who twist it to fulfil evil agendas, but it does concern me the way that people seem very keen to present Islam as a religion that defaults to barbarism and intolerance.I do agree that a lot of people would be reassured if there was a visible and heartfelt response from the British Muslim community against these attacks; however, one can hardly blame the community for recoiling in fear due the hatespeak meted out against their religion by people who don''t even come close to understanding it.[/quote]And do you not think that the grooming of children by asian gangs across the country went hand in hand with the religion? ISIS follow the Koran to it''s truest form, which has no place in modern society as it''s a stone age religion. The muslims living and coming to Britain should be educated first before being allowed in to a modern society, raping children and treating woman as a second class citizen is not acceptable in western society. [/quote]I am not saying Islam as a religion is benign. I am greatly concerned by some of the things that some Muslims deem acceptable, and the grooming by Asian gangs is utterly reprehensible. Much the same as the systemic child abuse meted out by privileged white men (Project Yewtree, Dolphin Square).The Bible (which is older than the Koran) also has a lot of questionable and immoral practices running through it; it is how the texts are interpreted that is important. You can''t rewrite the Koran any more than you can rewrite the Bible; you just have to educate people not to interpret it literally and contextualise it with the 21st century, as the majority of modern Muslims do. However, in less-developed societies that have more in common with the society in which the Prophet lived, you can surely understand how the interpretation is more barbaric and literal. It''s easy to criticise from our comfortable, fertile ivory tower with democracy, running water, healthcare and true freedom of speech.The bottom line; ISIS is the enemy, not Islam. We have to understand our enemy before we can defeat it, and the support of moderate Muslims will be absolutely integral to this end.

[mrs miggins 0]

In response to VW

Apologies if I was a bit heavy handed Vanwink, your point certainly does belong in this debate (just imo not the specific one we were discussing at the time). You made a great point in your original post that there is a desire to see Western civilisation replaced.

We know thats what ISIS want; they want to take over Europe and then eventually the USA, but I''d also say that many muslims would want this, but all in different ways. It would be chaos under Sharia Law immediately and I suspect once they would have it, they would come to loath it.

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"]The West can and should stand behind those moderate Islamic states who want to destroy IS, but ultimately the battle is between moderate Islam and radical Islam. We are trying to systematically destroy an enemy that we don''t even seem to understand.[/quote]You posted this a few pages back FTW, and imo you hit the nail on the head with that one short sentence.  On one side we have the fanatics of ISIS who interpret the Koran in a way that they can slaughter and set up their caliphate etc. using methods totally abhorrent to civilised society as most of the world knows it.  On the other side, there are the moderate Muslims who interpret the Koran in a completely different way, who say to ISIS, no that''s not the way, this is the way, this is what it says.  Same book, totally different interpretations.  So, until everyone sings from the same hymn sheet there will never be any form of agreement or understanding.Personally I can''t see ISIS ever becoming anywhere near ''moderate'', so the only answer is eradication.  If Russia, US, Nato, Saudi, Iran and China could ever agree to some form of joint action (probably no chance), some progress might be made, failing that, I fear the killing will continue.

[Herman 9,842]

[quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Crabbycanary3"]Does it say anywhere in the Koran, that people are entitled to their own opinion, and that must be respected?[/quote]No, it say''s non believers will have their heads striked off. [/quote]Does it? Have you read the book or are you just falling into the same trap that a lot of uneducated Muslims are?[/quote]

So

when you meet those who disbelieve, strike [their] necks

until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their

bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the

war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had

willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He

ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And

those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their

deeds.

Exact quote. The Qu''ran needs modernising. Even moderate British muslims have admitted that. [/quote]So it does, my Koranic scholar. How much of this has been taken out of context and been misinterpreted? Is it similar to the way some Christians try to justify their hatred of homesexuality by quoting an ancient passage, one tiny part of a massive book.

[mrs miggins 0]

Moderate Sunni''s in particular.

The only positive outcome I can see is if we do a deal with the Moderate Sunni and offer then resources and protection. The problem is we tried this before and they accepted it before the Shia''s came in. We of course broke our promise and the Sunni''s were killed and raped. They have no reason to trust us unfortunately when the moderate sunni''s are safer than before. However, I''m sure they also realise that the extreme Sunni''s (ISIS) are doing exactly the same to everyone else.

If the moderate Sunni''s are to have a change of heart it better be a bl00dy big carrot we dangle in front of them.

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

[quote user="OldRobert"][quote user="Feedthewolf"]The West can and should stand behind those moderate Islamic states who want to destroy IS, but ultimately the battle is between moderate Islam and radical Islam. We are trying to systematically destroy an enemy that we don''t even seem to understand.[/quote]You posted this a few pages back FTW, and imo you hit the nail on the head with that one short sentence.  On one side we have the fanatics of ISIS who interpret the Koran in a way that they can slaughter and set up their caliphate etc. using methods totally abhorrent to civilised society as most of the world knows it.  On the other side, there are the moderate Muslims who interpret the Koran in a completely different way, who say to ISIS, no that''s not the way, this is the way, this is what it says.  Same book, totally different interpretations.  So, until everyone sings from the same hymn sheet there will never be any form of agreement or understanding.Personally I can''t see ISIS ever becoming anywhere near ''moderate'', so the only answer is eradication.  If Russia, US, Nato, Saudi, Iran and China could ever agree to some form of joint action (probably no chance), some progress might be made, failing that, I fear the killing will continue.[/quote]By definition they cannot and will not ever become ''moderate''. Their stated aim is aiding the destruction of civilisation (End of Days), which they believe is God''s will and will happen after the fall of the 12th caliph (with al-Baghdadi being the eighth). They are simply trying to prepare for what they believe is the inevitable.

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="OldRobert"][quote user="Feedthewolf"]The West can and should stand behind those moderate Islamic states who want to destroy IS, but ultimately the battle is between moderate Islam and radical Islam. We are trying to systematically destroy an enemy that we don''t even seem to understand.[/quote]You posted this a few pages back FTW, and imo you hit the nail on the head with that one short sentence.  On one side we have the fanatics of ISIS who interpret the Koran in a way that they can slaughter and set up their caliphate etc. using methods totally abhorrent to civilised society as most of the world knows it.  On the other side, there are the moderate Muslims who interpret the Koran in a completely different way, who say to ISIS, no that''s not the way, this is the way, this is what it says.  Same book, totally different interpretations.  So, until everyone sings from the same hymn sheet there will never be any form of agreement or understanding.Personally I can''t see ISIS ever becoming anywhere near ''moderate'', so the only answer is eradication.  If Russia, US, Nato, Saudi, Iran and China could ever agree to some form of joint action (probably no chance), some progress might be made, failing that, I fear the killing will continue.[/quote]By definition they cannot and will not ever become ''moderate''. Their stated aim is aiding the destruction of civilisation (End of Days), which they believe is God''s will and will happen after the fall of the 12th caliph (with al-Baghdadi being the eighth). They are simply trying to prepare for what they believe is the inevitable.[/quote]If that''s their stated aim (I''m getting educated on this thread!), then is not eradication the only answer?

[mrs miggins 0]

Indeed it is Robert