grabban or jerome connundrum

[chicken 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]people arent comparing Grabban to the Simeon Jackson of today, more the one who was here in the Championship promotion season?[/quote]I was comparing Grabban to the Jackson of whenever you like. He is so much better than Jackson. He is a far better all round player.The continued attempts to rubbish Grabban are just rubbish and poor, and the more you try to prove your point the more you push the argument towards failure.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

.....you starting rambling on about what he''d done after he left us talking about Braunsweig,Coventry and Millwall, all largely irrelevant, you have the benefit of history, who knows where Grabban will be in 4 years time?....quite possibly following a similar career path.

Fact is a comparison between Grabban today and Jackson of our promotion season is a fair one.

"pushing my argument to failure"??

the failure of believing that one Norwich striker is better than another Norwich striker?

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Grabban played well yesterday, missed a couple but also won the penalty don''t forget!

[chicken 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"].....you starting rambling on about what he''d done after he left us talking about Braunsweig,Coventry and Millwall, all largely irrelevant, you have the benefit of history, who knows where Grabban will be in 4 years time?....quite possibly following a similar career path.

Fact is a comparison between Grabban today and Jackson of our promotion season is a fair one.

"pushing my argument to failure"??

the failure of believing that one Norwich striker is better than another Norwich striker?[/quote]Like I said, you''re wrong. It''s not a fair comparison at all. Grabban is a far more important part to this team than Jackson was to us back then.Like for like there is really no comparison.Simeon Jackson was signed from then League One Gillingham on the back of a season where he had scored 17 goals in 48 appearances.Grabban was signed from Championship side Bournemouth on the back of a season where he had scored 22 goals in 46 appearances.At this stage in both comparative seasons Grabban is doing far better, almost twice as many goals and is used more than just as an impact sub. As others have said, Grabban''s all round game is far better, he can pass and pass decisively. Having been sitting towards the River End yesterday I can tell you that the ball he played through for Redmond was fantastic - and Redmond was guilty of a very wild finish when Grabban had done all of the hard work.I have been lucky enough to watch both players live and I can tell you that Grabban is far more important to our team than Jackson was, he is a far better all round player. He is better technically, he is better at passing, has better movement, makes more intelligent decisions and much faster, his anticipation is greater, his heading is better, his strength is better.The comparison is not fair in terms of suggesting that they are of equal quality, much like the assessment that he is a poor player is not fair either. It just goes to underline some underlying motive to suggest he is poor as there is at best, only anecdotal evidence to suggest he is poor or "as good as Jackson".I would agree at this point that if you had a fully fit and on form Jerome he would be starting ahead of Grabban. It''s interesting to think that had this have been the season Jackson played, we would have gone to one up front with Martin/Holt depending who was injured rather than start Jackson, on many occasions. Often with Wes in behind. Or later on in the season, Lansbury, Vokes and Pachecko.So please, do give me some evidence to back up your ''fair assessment''.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

Grabban is "far more important to this team".?!?.......can''t believe we''ve left a player of this "calibre" out of the team for the last 2 months?!? .You''ve obviously forgetton his displays in October/November?

[chicken 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]Grabban is "far more important to this team".?!?.......can''t believe we''ve left a player of this "calibre" out of the team for the last 2 months?!? .You''ve obviously forgetton his displays in October/November?[/quote]And here you go again.Firstly, early season he was a reliable first team regular. He was then edged out of the team by two players of a higher caliber who have played premier league level football in addition to having picked up an injury. However, as I stated in my last post - he is clearly not seen as just an "impact sub" which is all Jackson ever really was.He is far more important as he is seen as a possible regular starter - again as identified in my last post. He also brings more to the team in terms of overall play, again as identified in my last post. What is more, Jackson was so important to the club that we sought to bring in more striking options and preferred them to him on many occasions towards the end of the season - again identified in my last post. All underlining why I have said Grabban is more important to the current team than Jackson was back then.At this point, you have not offered any evidence to back up your point of view or to counter the reasoning behind mine.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

by "edged out" of the team......would you not see that going on a run of not scoring in 9 games as having anything to do with that?.....or was he just unlucky?.....or "on another day those chances may have gone in"?!

.

my comparison between both Jackson /Grabban has been mentioned earlier in this thread in terms of a comparable chance/goal ratio, their instinctiveness but also by similarity their shared failure in missing chances when having "time to think".

They are both confidence strikers who would go on streaks of scoring goals.

Have you forgetten the late burst of goals Jackson scored in the promotion season to see us over the line...including the hattrick vs Derby and the goal at Portsmouth?

I''d love to share your optimism that Grabban may go on a similar burst of goalscoring but I just dont see it.

[GJP 79]

A better comparison would be Danny Welbeck. He''s a great player for the team but people get hung up on his goal scoring record (which isn''t even bad) and are too short-sighted to see the all round game. 

 

 

[lake district canary 4,562]

Jackson''s finishing was better than some people gave him credit for.   His work rate was always top notch too and he often created space for others on the pitch, notably Holt which worked well as a partnership on lots of occasions.   However, as has been said, Grabban is much better all round.  If Grabban continues to develop and improve - and players do develop and improve, contrary to what some people seem to believe  - he may well be a key player this season and whatever division we are in next season.   He has to keep doing it on a regular basis to stay in the team, but its great to see that he has found his form again, even if he didn''t quite get the goal his performance deserved.   Great to have a "strike force" in the squad that lives up to it''s name.

[chicken 0]

And like I have said, I disagree for so many reasons more than just goals to chances ratio''s. You fell back on this comparison after saying that he had a "poor game" yesterday and the only good thing he did was "get fouled" for the penalty.I have then highlighted several other moments of good play. Yet you have continued to justify your point of view that he is as poor/good as Jackson.My point of comparing the two''s past is to show that clearly, few clubs have thought Jackson to be of a good level of footballer. I''d go as far as saying that Championship season was arguably the highest peak of his career to date. In regards to Grabban, he has already scored 22 goals in a season at this level - in fact, a similar total to Hooper.You''ve also said that Grabban had an awful October/November.I think it''s fair to say that more or less the entire team had a poor Nov/December.Jerome - started all 9 games over that period scoring 3 times, two of which falling in the same game against Bolton.Grabban - started 5 games with a further 4 substitute appearances and no goals.Lafferty - started 3 games with a further 3 substitute appearances and no goals.Hooper - started 3 games with a further 4 substitute appearances and two goals.We scored 9 goals in 9 games as a team. What is interesting, however, is that we won the home game Vs Bolton where Jerome scored both goals and neither Hooper or Grabban started. It is also worth noting that in November Grabban was made three starts in four where we gained 6 points from 15 in October. He then made two starts in four which represented a period where we won a single point from a possible 12.It represents a slump in the overall team performance. The improvement in form appears to coincide with the likes of O''Neil becoming more of an important player to the team. You can look at this in a number of ways. But essentially all it says is that the team was poor at that time. Arguably Hooper was the only player to really come out of it with any credit considering the minimal pitch time and his goal return - if you are looking at goals alone.None of this really underlines anything other than if the team plays badly you can be sure that our strikers will score less goals. Five goals from four forwards over 9 games is pretty poor if you are wanting to be a top of the table side. Especially when you consider two of those were in one game. That means three goals in 8 games. That''s not even a ratio of 0.5 goals per game in that period.As for a goal burst - have we not already seen that from Grabban? 6 goals in 9 games at the start of the season?As I said, I''m not arguing that right now he is better than Jerome - what I am pointing out is that he is far better than you have been giving him any credit for being. And again, without any real substance to back it up. I have no problem with people having opinions, but opinions are there to be questioned, discussed and evidenced.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

dont know what more evidence you require.....in the last 2 home games we''ve seen him blaze a ball over the bar from 2 yards out .....and miss a critical one on one vs Brentford......just 2 instances that show poor technique and a lack of quality in front of goal under pressure.

during the aforementioned Oct/Nov when he was being kept in the team for a far longer period than he should have been at the expense of Hooper, there were plenty more examples of that.....and that was on good days!. On other occasions he would barely get into the game at all and not have any chances on goal.

For the last 2 months until the Birmingham game he''s been warming the bench, something which you claim that Jackson was only ever good for (another smiliarity?).

That goal burst at the start of the season seems a long time ago now. If youre asking if he''s more likely to recapture the form of 6 months ago or if it will be a continuation of 2/3 months ago , I''d say that would be open to debate.

[Highland Canary 76]

@GJL - that is precisely how I see it too. Of course, if Jerome is not fully fit, Grabban should get the nod at Charlton.

[hogesar 9,817]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]dont know what more evidence you require.....in the last 2 home games we''ve seen him blaze a ball over the bar from 2 yards out .....and miss a critical one on one vs Brentford......just 2 instances that show poor technique and a lack of quality in front of goal under pressure.

during the aforementioned Oct/Nov when he was being kept in the team for a far longer period than he should have been at the expense of Hooper, there were plenty more examples of that.....and that was on good days!. On other occasions he would barely get into the game at all and not have any chances on goal.

For the last 2 months until the Birmingham game he''s been warming the bench, something which you claim that Jackson was only ever good for (another smiliarity?).

That goal burst at the start of the season seems a long time ago now. If youre asking if he''s more likely to recapture the form of 6 months ago or if it will be a continuation of 2/3 months ago , I''d say that would be open to debate.[/quote]

You have an incredibly simplistic view on want a lone CF should bring a team.

[chicken 0]

Mid-Norfolk - And I have counter argued that the October/November period was poor overall for the team. If it is down to missing shots then Redmond has to be there as well, and so by that sentiment he is also very poor.The stats for that period don''t lie. Our striking department for the entirety of those 9 games managed 5 goals, Jerome scored three in two fixtures. I seem to remember him blazing some decent chances well wide/high as well. That period wasn''t good enough full stop. But to blame an individual . . . . .As for Saturday and Brentford, if you are hanging your entire argument over a couple of misses then you are entirely flawed.I remember games and periods in Holt''s rampaging seasons with us, where it would have been more difficult for him to miss and yet he did. During those sorts of spells when a player falls out of form, as a manager, you have to look at the side and decide whether all of the other things a player brings to the team outweigh''s the barron spell in goals.And again, you saying you don''t can''d see where the run of goals will come from - pays absolutely no respect that he has had a run of goals, both in this season and last season where he scored 22. That there is evidence he can do it.To summise so far you have said that Grabban was poor yesterday and the only evidence you put forward to support this is that he blazed one chance over the bar. Then to back this up further you said he also missed a good chance against Brentford when he came on as a 79th minute substitute. You have also said that we cann''t count his goal in the 5-0 beating of Huddersfield. When pushed for more than just goals you have said that he is just like Simeon Jackson. And finally that he had a poor October/November (also, please note my prior typo where I said November/December - I meant October/November) - I have researched the stats and shown that it is fair to say that the entire team played poorly during that period with a return of only four points from 9 games.All of these have had fair and decent arguments against and in most cases they have fallen unchallenged. As it stands you are now going back over the same arguments, again, without anything but your own opinion. As I have said, if you are to put a case forward, find some actual evidence that backs it up. If you are right, there should be plenty of it.As I have said, it amounts to more than just Grabban. As a manager, you have to look at your striking options and find the best combinations. You also then have to look to your midfield and see who provides the best platform for your strikers to get goal scoring oppertunities from, and to dominate posession and still give your defense cover. You then have to look to your defense to be strong and allow your strikers to be able to out score the opposition.Grabban, for me, may not always be a prolific goal scorer. This may well be in part, due to playing as a winger quite often in the past. Unlike Jackson, however, goalscoring is not his only asset. As I have said and evidenced using the highlights, (maybe go and look at previous highlights?) he does far more for the team. Yesterday, by all rights, he should have been on at least two assists. Firstly for winning the penalty and then for the chance that Redmond had which for me, was the biggest miss of the game. There were other oppertunities as well, some he fashioned from nothing but persistance, good anticipation and not giving up on a ''lost cause'' type ball.As I have said before, I''d take him over RVW and Elmander - and in terms of ability, bar pace, they were both better than Jackson as well.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Given the choice, especially considering the style of play AN wants to play, I would take Grabban above Jerome every time.

I did not see Grabban amble back from offside positions, not being involved in the game, as I did Jerome against Brentford.

Grabban has far better movement, more pace, a better work ethic and involves other members of the team better than Jerome.

Of Jerome: it seemed strange to me that a player with a suspect hamstring could come into the match on Saturday, when the game was all but won, and be risked, if the manager felt he was so important to the team.

I would suggest AN made the choice of which player he preferred. This was borne out by his comments after the match.

At the end of the day it''s about how many goals the team score, not about how many goals any individual scores.

[smooth 114]

Lappin I was not at the game, I cannot make every game each season but go to a good 10-15 a season.

I listened and of course it was a good performance. I am not commenting on one 90 minute game and his performance in that.

For me over the course of the season, jerome is the first option alongside hooper. Grabban is an adequate number 3, but his traits known at Bournemouth have for me been plain to see too many times. He scored a lot last season and could have scored more but having seen the way Bournemouth play chances are created throughout the game.

Over the course of the season, I like others, would rather jerome and hooper (when fully fit).

Grabban is not as polished and it is always hard to back up a 20goal season. Grabban will press and we will see if jerome does that.

But as long as the group score goals as the midfield chip in. If you don''t shoot you don''t score and we need goals I win games starting tomorrow night and at wolves. We cannot slip up and need to push now.

[Horse Renoir 1]

For me there''s no conundrum, Grabban has been superb for 2 games and deserves to keep his place. 4-2-3-1 has been our best system with this set of players for a long time and Grabban is our best man to lead the line, with Hooper in the side Grabban''s iffy finishing isn''t a problem, his all round game is excellent, he links up well and creates a lot of space for others.

Jerome should be competing with Redmond, Hooper and Hoolahan imo for one of those deeper lying forward positions where his pace, power, dribbling and experience can make a real impact. I''ve never been too impressed with him as a lone forward, I just don''t think that''s his game.

Dropping Grabban now would be a huge mistake, we''re finally getting some fluidity and cohesion in attack and dropping him now would send the wrong message to the team, they need to feel that if they play well they stay in the side, that was Lambert''s strength, we need to keep that ethic.

[joe 0]

Both got goals today reopens the debate as to who should start I still feel Jerome is our best all round striker at the club but competition for places can only be healthy I guess

[Indy_Bones 442]

Grabban fast appears to be turning into our latest ''Cinnamon'' player, ie a striker who struggles to score consistently but puts in a decent shift and tries to help the rest of the attacking play.There will be some games where this is exactly what we need to have available, but plenty of others where Jerome''s more direct strength will be just as invaluable (and more likely to get us goals IMHO).What actually concerns me more is what happens if one of our main strikers gets injured, we don''t really have a 4th choice option of any real ability available (and shifting players like Redmond into attack isn''t the answer either), and if we then got a suspension or additional attacking injury on top of this, we''d be having to play a VERY defensive game until they returned...For me, I''d rather play Jerome than Grabban, even though Grabban has done nothing wrong in his recent games, purely because Jerome offers a genuine goal threat whereas Grabban''s frequent wayward finishing can cost us dearly in a game of few chances...

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

I was critical of Grabban on Saturday but credit where its due he was excellent in the first half last night, far better decision making, harried a defence all 45 minutes that we had trouble breaking down when we played them at home and of course took his goal well.

but.

I still can''t help but feel that we''re playing with one arm tied behind our back by not playing Jerome. I don''t believe that we''re a good enough side that we can be leaving our top scorer on the bench and I dont believe that anyone else in the top 8 would be doing so for the rest of the season.

Whatever we think our starting XI is or our favoured formation it MUST contain Jerome

[Budapest Canary 152]

I''d take an inverse view and ask which of the two players can make more impact coming off the bench? I''d say it''s Jerome. His pace and directness against a tiring defense can be even more lethal when applied fresh during the later stages of the game. If memory serves me right he scored several late winners this season (one definitely against Bournemouth) therefore he seems to be a better choice in this respect too.

[lake district canary 4,562]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

I was critical of Grabban on Saturday but credit where its due he was excellent in the first half last night, far better decision making, harried a defence all 45 minutes that we had trouble breaking down when we played them at home and of course took his goal well. but.I still can''t help but feel that we''re playing with one arm tied behind our back by not playing Jerome. I don''t believe that we''re a good enough side that we can be leaving our top scorer on the bench and I dont believe that anyone else in the top 8 would be doing so for the rest of the season.Whatever we think our starting XI is or our favoured formation it MUST contain Jerome[/quote]

Agree that Grabban is excellent when on form.  Lost his way under Adams, but has re-found it under AN.   Our top scorer is Jerome, but Hooper and Grabban are strong players too.   The best of both worlds is to use all three of them within a match, not single one out as a "must".   Jerome is good, but does miss easy looking chances sometimes so imo not better than the other two. 

Its a squad game - there is no favoured 11 or formation if they are all on form - you simply choose the team you think best suited to the match coming up.  Its what Lambert used to do too.