Expectations v hope

[Bill 1,788]

much as those hoping that you will eventually having something interesting to say one day

[lake district canary 4,546]

[quote user="City1st"]much as those hoping that you will eventually having something interesting to say one day[/quote]

Maybe - and a bit like hoping you will learn what 2 + 2 equals, one day.......

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I expect the usual brigade to try and devalue this thread, lecture, lecture etc...[/quote]Don''t let them put you off Lakey, I enjoy your lectures. [:D]

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]much as those hoping that you will eventually having something interesting to say one day[/quote]

Maybe - and a bit like hoping you will learn what 2 + 2 equals, one day.......

[/quote]is it the distance in miles from yoiur house to Norwich, perhaps ?

[lake district canary 4,546]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]much as those hoping that you will eventually having something interesting to say one day[/quote]Maybe - and a bit like hoping you will learn what 2 + 2 equals, one day.......[/quote]is it the distance in miles from yoiur house to Norwich, perhaps ?[/quote]

Ooooooohhhh you little tinker!!!!

2 + 2 = ? 

[Bill 1,788]

steadydon''t step out of character

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="lake district canary"]So what is the point in expecting Adams to get us promoted?  It will

only lead to frustration if we don''t do well straight away.  Do we ever

learn?  The thing thay I''ve learned watching the club over the years is

that the more expectations we have as fans - the more likely we are to

be disappointed.[/quote]So what about McNally''s view that we need to get back up at the first attempt?  Are those expectations unreasonable?  Should Adams resign because he is under unreasonable pressure to achieve success?If McNally, Bowkett and the board expect us to have a crack at promotion this season, as they have stated, then do you plan to sit down with them and convince them of the error of their ways?There is nothing wrong with having expectations.  Expecting Norwich City to be top six next season, certainly with the current squad, is not unreasonable.

[PurpleCanary 5,585]

[quote user="Bor Bor Bor"][quote user="lake district canary"]So what is the point in expecting Adams to get us promoted?  It will

only lead to frustration if we don''t do well straight away.  Do we ever

learn?  The thing thay I''ve learned watching the club over the years is

that the more expectations we have as fans - the more likely we are to

be disappointed.[/quote]So what about McNally''s view that we need to get back up at the first attempt?  Are those expectations unreasonable?  Should Adams resign because he is under unreasonable pressure to achieve success?If McNally, Bowkett and the board expect us to have a crack at promotion this season, as they have stated, then do you plan to sit down with them and convince them of the error of their ways?There is nothing wrong with having expectations.  Expecting Norwich City to be top six next season, certainly with the current squad, is not unreasonable.

[/quote]I think we are in Mandy Rice-Davies territory here. He would say that, wouldn''t he?[;)]But McNally may well believe it. In part because he may have made the same calculation I have done  - that the new combination of increased parachute payments and FFP seemingly being taken seriously in the Championship will from now tilt the odds more in favour of the newly relegated clubs.

[Newton 0]

We have a supurb opportunity to go back up first attempt, no debt and a relatively young teamIf we do not the board led by bumbling Delia have failed the fans its as simple as that

[T 190]

Leicester, Burnley and qpr all benefit from rich benefactors so does not look like ffp was effective last season.

Parachute payments have been in place for a number of years and haven''t improved the promotion rates.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="T"]Leicester, Burnley and qpr all benefit from rich benefactors so does not look like ffp was effective last season.

Parachute payments have been in place for a number of years and haven''t improved the promotion rates.[/quote]

I am not too sure Burnley have overspent, and bar a lucky goal it could well have been Derby who went up. We have yet to see how much ''bite'' the implimentation of FFP will be, accounts won''t be be checked until Dec 2014.As to parachute payments a fair number of clubs have serious off field problems which were not only the cause of their relegation but there continued stay in the Championship(or lower).It should also be borne in mind the enormous increase in payments this year. Up from £15m last season to £23m this season (our impoverished neighbours will be lucky to see £12m in total).As to tis idea of us going for promotion, I cannot remember any season outside of the top flight when we weren''t. Nor can I remember an season when the odds were so stacked in our favour either.onwards and upwards (literally)

[Highland Canary 76]

If it the case that FFP and the current broadcast deal has tilted the promotion equation in favour of the newly relegated clubs it makes our managerial appointment all the more bizarre.

[Bill 1,788]

eh ?

[PurpleCanary 5,585]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="T"]Leicester, Burnley and qpr all benefit from rich benefactors so does not look like ffp was effective last season.

Parachute payments have been in place for a number of years and haven''t improved the promotion rates.[/quote]

I am not too sure Burnley have overspent, and bar a lucky goal it could well have been Derby who went up. We have yet to see how much ''bite'' the implimentation of FFP will be, accounts won''t be be checked until Dec 2014.As to parachute payments a fair number of clubs have serious off field problems which were not only the cause of their relegation but there continued stay in the Championship(or lower).It should also be borne in mind the enormous increase in payments this year. Up from £15m last season to £23m this season (our impoverished neighbours will be lucky to see £12m in total).

[/quote]That is correct all round. The potential QPR fine was for the 2012-13 season. The first punishments meted out by the Football League for Championship clubs overspending in that division will be for the season just gone, and will be based on losses above a certain figure. Shaun Harvey, the Football League chief executive, and Lee Hoos, the Burnley CEO, told The Guardian in February the rules were already having the

intended effect of damping down spiralling wages."The existence

of FFP has certainly helped achieve one of the principal objectives, to

bring down the wages of players, particularly of squad players," says

Harvey.That assessment is echoed by Hoos, chief executive of

second-placed Burnley, strong supporters of FFP, who says the limits are

helping him to negotiate players down from wage demands of £12,000 per

week and inflation which "kills clubs trying to keep to budgets".If they are right, or even half-right, then the combination of FFP and the sharply increased parachute payments should mean that from now on well-run clubs that get relegated from the Premier League (such as those with wage-reduction clauses) should have more of an advantage in getting straight back than was the case. There may be variations, and some clubs may still gamble, but in crude terms the relegated trio should be able to spend more money than those without the parachute largesse and still avoid punishable losses.

[Bill 1,788]

However PC the devil is in the detail.If Leicester post the same losses (13/14 season) as of the previous season then the suggested fine would be one of £19m. That would serve as a robust enough sanction (and deterent to others) if, and a big if, that fine is paid out of season 14/15''s income - and NOT from money paid or loaned by the owners. Even then the punishment would realistically only be on the pitch rather than off it, as £19m out of the PL TV money still leaves a fair bit over - and it would need that missing money (the fine) to hit the squad before any ''good'' was done.Sure, it will keep the lower clubs more in line but the fear must be that there will still be those who will gamble and accept the fine and relegation if it leaves them a few million up on the deal.Mmy concern is that this may have the effect that the huge somes of money have on the PL whereby there is an elite fight for the Europe/champions League places and there is the rest trying just to hang on in there. With the Championship it will be automatic promotion and the playoffs.

[lharman7 39]

lake district canary wrote:

So what is the point in expecting Adams to get us promoted? It will only lead to frustration if we don''t do well straight away. Do we ever learn? The thing thay I''ve learned watching the club over the years is that the more expectations we have as fans - the more likely we are to be disappointed.

So what about McNally''s view that we need to get back up at the first attempt? Are those expectations unreasonable? Should Adams resign because he is under unreasonable pressure to achieve success?

If McNally, Bowkett and the board expect us to have a crack at promotion this season, as they have stated, then do you plan to sit down with them and convince them of the error of their ways?

There is nothing wrong with having expectations. Expecting Norwich City to be top six next season, certainly with the current squad, is not unreasonable.

Very much this^^^

LDC, where other than this forum have you experienced the fans expectations being too high?

Do you not think that maybe just maybe McNally and to an extent Adams have added to the fans expectations?

Comments made like "promotion at the first attempt is paramount", will surely just raise expectations of fans.

With the current positive financial state our club is in I would not begrudge any of our supporters to have high expectations!

Please look at the bigger picture before writing yet another rhetorical and repetitive lecture.

[lake district canary 4,546]

[quote user="lharman7"]LDC, where other than this forum have you experienced the fans expectations being too high?

Do you not think that maybe just maybe McNally and to an extent Adams have added to the fans expectations?

Comments made like "promotion at the first attempt is paramount", will surely just raise expectations of fans.

With the current positive financial state our club is in I would not begrudge any of our supporters to have high expectations!

Please look at the bigger picture before writing yet another rhetorical and repetitive lecture.[/quote]

The football season is an unknown quantity, how we can "expect" anything, I don''t know.  To me the "unknown" is what makes it interesting.  I don''t want to prescribe what should happen in the season - I just want to enjoy it - and if we get promotion that will be fantastic - but if we don''t, then we try again next season.   There are no expectations on England to do well in the world cup - and the consensus amongst a lot of observers and commentators, is that it may help us.   So it isn''t just semantics - its actually quite sensible to keep expectations down - it doesn''t mean its any less likely that we will succeed, but getting worked up because we''re not near the top of the table for the whole season is not going to help.  As far as that goes, what matters is the position we end up in on the last day of the season, not in September or October......

 

[PurpleCanary 5,585]

[quote user="City1st"]However PC the devil is in the detail.If Leicester post the same losses (13/14 season) as of the previous season then the suggested fine would be one of £19m. That would serve as a robust enough sanction (and deterent to others) if, and a big if, that fine is paid out of season 14/15''s income - and NOT from money paid or loaned by the owners. Even then the punishment would realistically only be on the pitch rather than off it, as £19m out of the PL TV money still leaves a fair bit over - and it would need that missing money (the fine) to hit the squad before any ''good'' was done.Sure, it will keep the lower clubs more in line but the fear must be that there will still be those who will gamble and accept the fine and relegation if it leaves them a few million up on the deal.Mmy concern is that this may have the effect that the huge somes of money have on the PL whereby there is an elite fight for the Europe/champions League places and there is the rest trying just to hang on in there. With the Championship it will be automatic promotion and the playoffs.

[/quote]I think the devil is not just in the detail but whether the rules survive a still possible legal challenge and/or the predictable unwillingness of the Premier League to help the Football league with enforcement. Even if they do, the rules may evolve over time. But if what is arguably the main threat - that of a transfer embargo - remains in place then clubs will have to take them seriously.

[Badger 2,412]

I think LDC has a point: there is a danger of fans expecting "instant results." Nevertheless, I agree that posters are correct in identifying the first couple of years as the best opportunity for promotion in financial terms and players "inherited." Momentum is the big issue imo. When you have positive momentum it can really work in your favour - you only have to look at the Lambert years to see that. Equally, a negative momentum can be just as easily achieved and decline continue - Wolves are but one example  of this. I think LDC''s point about expectations is particularly pertinent to the momentum issue. If there is a feeling of negativity every time we play poorly or fail to beat opposition fans regards as "inferior" (which will happen) the negativity can reinforce and strengthen the downward momentum.So where does all this lead? I am convinced that a promotion challenge is a realistic expectation but I think that we have to be prepared for a slow start as we try to reverse momentum and reacclimatise ourselves to different challenges and indeed adopt a new style of play, which is clearly part of Adam''s brief. I think the normal 10 or 12 games "rule of thumb" needs to be extended this year and that we should not be considering the table too seriously (except in extremis) until 20 to 25 games at which time we should compare momentum and results from the second dozen games with the first dozen.I expect us to be in the top six this season but feel that we might not move into these positions until the spring. I hope fans are patient and give time for transition.

[# 0]

Sack Adams now...........If only to keep Lakey quiet.[;)]

[Tetteys Jig 830]

There''s thresholds though. I wouldn''t call for Adams'' head if we were 10th at Christmas, I would if we were in the bottom half an looking out of the promotion picture though.

For me, if he doesn''t get us a playoff place or at least very near at minimum, we need a change. Player for player, we have the best squad in this league by some way.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="City1st"]However PC the devil is in the detail.If Leicester post the same losses (13/14 season) as of the previous season then the suggested fine would be one of £19m. That would serve as a robust enough sanction (and deterent to others) if, and a big if, that fine is paid out of season 14/15''s income - and NOT from money paid or loaned by the owners. Even then the punishment would realistically only be on the pitch rather than off it, as £19m out of the PL TV money still leaves a fair bit over - and it would need that missing money (the fine) to hit the squad before any ''good'' was done.Sure, it will keep the lower clubs more in line but the fear must be that there will still be those who will gamble and accept the fine and relegation if it leaves them a few million up on the deal.Mmy concern is that this may have the effect that the huge somes of money have on the PL whereby there is an elite fight for the Europe/champions League places and there is the rest trying just to hang on in there. With the Championship it will be automatic promotion and the playoffs.

[/quote]

I think the devil is not just in the detail but whether the rules survive a still possible legal challenge and/or the predictable unwillingness of the Premier League to help the Football league with enforcement. Even if they do, the rules may evolve over time. But if what is arguably the main threat - that of a transfer embargo - remains in place then clubs will have to take them seriously.[/quote]I welcome the intent behind the FFP, which I believe is more about

curbing rising wages and in fact driving them down rather than any

''fairness''. Those in charge and most involved including fans must

realise that the current level of wages are not so much a bubble but a

means of bankrupting many clubs.And the recognition also that

merely increasing the wage levels will not proportionally produce better

football, and may well have a  detrimental effect as agents/players

seek the best financial deal to gain the maximum money in the shortest

time.This may be the test of whether football can start to get some sanity and chance of survival back.We shall see.

[lake district canary 4,546]

[quote user=" Badger"]I think LDC has a point: there is a danger of fans expecting "instant results." Nevertheless, I agree that posters are correct in identifying the first couple of years as the best opportunity for promotion in financial terms and players "inherited."  Momentum is the big issue imo. When you have positive momentum it can really work in your favour - you only have to look at the Lambert years to see that. Equally, a negative momentum can be just as easily achieved and decline continue - Wolves are but one example  of this.  I think LDC''s point about expectations is particularly pertinent to the momentum issue. If there is a feeling of negativity every time we play poorly or fail to beat opposition fans regards as "inferior" (which will happen) the negativity can reinforce and strengthen the downward momentum. So where does all this lead? I am convinced that a promotion challenge is a realistic expectation but I think that we have to be prepared for a slow start as we try to reverse momentum and reacclimatise ourselves to different challenges and indeed adopt a new style of play, which is clearly part of Adam''s brief. I think the normal 10 or 12 games "rule of thumb" needs to be extended this year and that we should not be considering the table too seriously (except in extremis) until 20 to 25 games at which time we should compare momentum and results from the second dozen games with the first dozen.  I expect us to be in the top six this season but feel that we might not move into these positions until the spring. I hope fans are patient and give time for transition.[/quote]

Totally agree with that.  The momentum thing is very relevant.  We have just been relegated and will have to fight very hard to turn it round  and gain forward momentum - and as much as people think we have good players, it will not be as easy as some might think to suddenly turn into a winning team.   We do obviously have good players and it will be hoped that the kick start of the new management team will get us going in the right direction - but it will still be one heck of a fight.    The season is 46 games and a good run in the last ten games could put us in the play offs or even straight promotion, from quite a low position in the table.   I would go as far as taking it to 30 games before assessing how likely we are to challenge the top of the table by the end of the season.   After all, no one would want us to be top in September, do well for a few weeks then flounder.  A much more solid way of doing it is to grind out results, get ourselves in a good mentality, build the momentum and push on to promotion in the final few weeks. 

[Bill 1,788]

the troll is still talking us down I seenow why might that be, some might ask ?

[lake district canary 4,546]

[quote user="City1st"]the troll is still talking us down I seenow why might that be, some might ask ?[/quote]

Why don''t you stick to what you''re good at - answering posters sensibly.  You don''t do it often enough, which is why you come across as a complete toss pot most of the time.  Now, try to keep the thread clear of your tripe and stick to discussing sensibly. Please.  There is no-one talking down anything - except in your mind.

[The Big Bad Wolf 0]

It all depends on what our squad looks like after the transfer window closes and this can certainly shift both hope and expectations. Adams is a rookie at this level so he is likely to make some mistakes (we probably need to expect this even if hoping differently). Nevertheless if we retain the majority of the squad I would expect us to make the playoffs. We all know it''s a difficult league to get out of, but it is possible at the first attempt (look at QPR). If we invest wisely then it should be playoffs minimum. I don''t think there is anything wrong with expecting that given our financial situation and current playing staff. All clubs set targets - Adams will be working to these irrespective of our hopes or expectations. I would have thought to keep the job he would be expected to deliver the playoffs minimum. No different to any club that targets are set - these are expectations of the board / owners etc. I like the rest on here hope we go straight back up but if not I at least expect us to be challenging.

[Katie Borkins 1]

Ha ha, "tosspot".

[Highland Canary 76]

Unfortunately, we don''t have the luxury of giving a ''rookie'' manager the time to make mistakes. Let''s not forget fail next season and we lose any of our remaining top players and likely consign ourselves to many more years in the second tier. It''s not quite now or never but not far off it.

[gabba 0]

[quote user="Highland Canary"]Unfortunately, we don''t have the luxury of giving a ''rookie'' manager the time to make mistakes.[/quote]Don''t worry, we''ve got a failed ex-Ipswich manager as a crutch for Adams to lean on.

[Katie Borkins 1]

I''m still waiting for an answer on whether Bowkett, McNally and the board''s expectations of promotion at the first effort are unreasonable and putting too much pressure on our manager and the players.