Is it that bad?

[wooster 134]

I hope this data is correct, but I believe in the last

two seasons we have got 19 points in the last 17 games.  I think most of us would expect to be safe

this season if we got close to that, especially given the way the first half of

the season has gone.

Moreover, if you look at those last 17 games in each

season, amongst the top clubs we played, or have to play, the following:

 

’11/12   home:   Chelsea (1pt), Man U, Man C, Liverpool,

Everton (1pt)                 Total = 6pts

            Away:   Spurs (3pts), Arsenal (1pt)

 

‘12/13   home:   Spurs (1pt), Everton (3pts)                                                         Total

= 7pts

            Away:   Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, Man C (3pts)

 

’13/14   Home:  Man C, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal

            Away:   Man U, Chelsea

 

So this year’s run-in is no worse than previous

years.  At the moment it seems hard to

see where the next win is going to come from but I was feeling as grim about

things around this time last year (or perhaps a bit later, ie Feb/March).

But with this history and nine games (four at home, five

away) against the other ten clubs around us there’s still all to play for,

surely, regardless of other distractions.

[Tetteys Jig 851]

It isn''t ''that'' bad yet, but prevention is better than the cure. Our form is terrible and we''re not playing well. It looks like it''ll only get worse without changes.

Look at our wins this season:

Southampton, we deserved the win on the balance, but it was a close fought game and they hit the post, could have gone either way.

Stoke, good performance, but still an opportunist win rather than convincing. Stoke on the balance of play deserved a draw

West Ham, 1-0 down, looked shot to bits until Jussi handed us the points. Confidence a big factor here and West Ham were severely hampered with injuries.

West Brom, got a break away goal, (nice goal at that) and then got bombarded to high hell by them until a relieving 90th minute settler from Fer

Palace, another one that a Hooper strike got us the points in. We then were bombarded by Palace and had Olsson to thank for a last ditch clearence. Palace had more shots.

Not once (other than the Cardiff 0-0) do i think we''ve convincingly deserved 3 points this season. That''s the worry. I think we''re lucky to have the points we do.

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

I agree, it''s just the nature of this forum that there are many who made their minds up against Hughton long ago.  I think it is just silly for people to say that his record has never been good enough or we''ve had relegation form for over 12 months, both of which are blatantly untrue.

 

Can''t deny it is a worry that we''ve hit a slump in form at a vital time, but we are right in the middle of the bottom 11 clubs which are separated by just 6 points.  It would still be a huge gamble to change the manager now.

[KeelansGlove 0]

Couldn''t agree more Jimmy.

I am not concerned with our points tally or indeed our position in the league. I can agree with the "inners" that there are at least 9 other teams in it with us.

However with the possible exception of West Ham I cannot see a team that look less passionate and likely to win a game.

[Tetteys Jig 851]

quote "It''s Character Forming"

I agree, it''s just the nature of this forum that there are many who made their minds up against Hughton long ago.  I think it is just silly for people to say that his record has never been good enough or we''ve had relegation form for over 12 months, both of which are blatantly untrue.

Can''t deny it is a worry that we''ve hit a slump in form at a vital time, but we are right in the middle of the bottom 11 clubs which are separated by just 6 points.  It would still be a huge gamble to change the manager now.

It would be a huge gamble to keep the manager.

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

[quote user="Jimmy Smith"] Stoke, good performance, but still an opportunist win rather than convincing. Stoke on the balance of play deserved a draw .[/quote]

 

Gobsmacked by this comment in particular.  You obviously saw a different game to me.  When I watched us play Stoke they had hardly any chances and we were comfortably the better side over the 90 minutes and had the chances to win by more than one goal.  You ignore the time Ryan Bennett hit the bar - but you mention Southampton hitting the post against us though.

 

As for the others, it''s always easy to say a narrow win is lucky in football if you point to the chances the other side missed and ignore the chances we missed.  There is a view among many on this forum that if City miss chances, it''s because we''re poor, but if the opposition miss chances, we are "lucky".  It''s an anti-City bias. 

 

For example I watched Southampton vs WBA while stuck in an airport lounge recently and at the end WBA had an outstanding chance to equalize, a much worse miss than any of their misses against us.  Does that mean Southampton were lucky ?  No, it''s because WBA miss those sort of chances that they are where they are in the table.  The same is true of our win against them.

[Tetteys Jig 851]

Fine, i''ll give them that one. 8 shots all but Stoke were more wasteful.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

Because us being out of the bottom 3 doesn''t suit people have to try and somehow take away points they don''t think we deserve. And this has been going on for nearly 12 months. I get accused of wearing yellow & green glasses but whatever colour are the ones these posters wear?

 

 

[mrs miggins 0]

i personally don''t think it is even bad, its ok. I was really disappointed with our game against fulham on boxing day. I also think january will be a crucial time for hughton in terms of results and signings. I can understand the gutierez signing (only if its not permanent by the end) but imo we need to spend on a quality player to go down the spine of the team

[Indy_Bones 444]

[quote user="Its Character Forming"]When I watched us play Stoke they had hardly any chances and we were comfortably the better side over the 90 minutes and had the chances to win by more than one goal.[/quote]We both had the same amount of chances in the game, Stoke had the higher possession, won more of the aerial duels and had more succesful passing, however we did hit the woodwork and were more accurate with our shooting despite the limited possession.For anyone who''d not seen the game then I think it''s fair to say that a draw would have looked as being reasonable on paper based on the balance of the stats, maybe even that Stoke edged it...whether or not that''s actually the case is neither here nor there now is it...?

[Canary On The Wire 0]

Stoke deserved a draw?Oh dear Jimmy Smith- your swift backtrack shows how ridiculous that statement is.People get so caught up in compulsively gettun hootun out that they start talking out of their proverbialI suppose United deserved to put 4 or 5 past us at CR as well

[TIL 1010 5,246]

We still have to play Arsenal,Man City and Liverpool at home plus. Man Utd and Chelsea away.

Those fixtures and the returns yielded us a total of 9 points which is a reasonable total against the five biggest clubs in the league and to date this season a total of 0 so far.The stark reality is that we are looking at 5 defeats in those remaining fixtures for this season so yes it is that bad. Those 9 points last season would make all the difference at the end of this season.

 

[TIL 1010 5,246]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

We still have to play Arsenal,Man City and Liverpool at home plus. Man Utd and Chelsea away.

Those fixtures and the returns yielded us a total of 9 points * which is a reasonable total against the five biggest clubs in the league and to date this season a total of 0 so far.The stark reality is that we are looking at 5 defeats in those remaining fixtures for this season so yes it is that bad. Those 9 points last season would make all the difference at the end of this season.

 

[/quote]

* last season.

 

[ricardo 8,034]

[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

We still have to play Arsenal,Man City and Liverpool at home plus. Man Utd and Chelsea away.

Those fixtures and the returns yielded us a total of 9 points * which is a reasonable total against the five biggest clubs in the league and to date this season a total of 0 so far.The stark reality is that we are looking at 5 defeats in those remaining fixtures for this season so yes it is that bad. Those 9 points last season would make all the difference at the end of this season.

 

[/quote]

* last season.

 

[/quote]So even if we get nothing from those games we are still looking at something like a 38 point season.We are a 1 point per game team give or take a little and will remain so whether Hughton is Manager or someone else.

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"][quote user="Its Character Forming"]When I watched us play Stoke they had hardly any chances and we were comfortably the better side over the 90 minutes and had the chances to win by more than one goal.[/quote]
We both had the same amount of chances in the game, Stoke had the higher possession, won more of the aerial duels and had more succesful passing, however we did hit the woodwork and were more accurate with our shooting despite the limited possession.

For anyone who''d not seen the game then I think it''s fair to say that a draw would have looked as being reasonable on paper based on the balance of the stats, maybe even that Stoke edged it...whether or not that''s actually the case is neither here nor there now is it...?
[/quote]

 

Yes, the Stoke chances were mainly shots from range which posed no real threat.  I agree this is the difference between looking at stats (which equate a shot into row Z with one that skims over the bar) and being at a game.

 

I do think it''s relevant to the question of whether or not we''ve "deserved" any of our wins this season.  Which was the OP''s argument.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

If the league table doesn''t suit then argue against it. The Nancys can have a veto button to take away points we didn''t "deserve" but the the Percys have to have a similar button to add points they thought we deserved but didn''t get. I think we''d end up in much the same place. Don''t you?

 

 

[TIL 1010 5,246]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

We still have to play Arsenal,Man City and Liverpool at home plus. Man Utd and Chelsea away.

Those fixtures and the returns yielded us a total of 9 points * which is a reasonable total against the five biggest clubs in the league and to date this season a total of 0 so far.The stark reality is that we are looking at 5 defeats in those remaining fixtures for this season so yes it is that bad. Those 9 points last season would make all the difference at the end of this season.

 

[/quote]

* last season.

 

[/quote]

So even if we get nothing from those games we are still looking at something like a 38 point season.

We are a 1 point per game team give or take a little and will remain so whether Hughton is Manager or someone else.
[/quote]

So are you saying we will get 18 points from the 12 games left ignoring the big 5 fixtures then Ricardo ? That is 1.5 points a game which we have underachieved throughout this current season. Maybe you could tell me when we will step up to the plate.

[Salopian 1]

I am not concerned with how many points we have now, as compared with last season. I am concerned with the recent run of games, where once or twice we have started brightly but ended up long since mentally beaten. We have been playing very poorly, giving goals away and struggling to score even the odd one or two.

On the basis of current form, the teams who were a week or two ago well below us are showing signs of improvement. We are at best standing still, and even with both strikers fit again we are struggling to score. Add to this that Bassong seems elsewhere at times, Tettey has yet to show that he will not succumb to post-injury inertia as he did last season, and Howson has disappeared from sight, and the prospects do not seem good.

Last season''s final fling, when we left the relegation area for mid-table, produced four or five very unexpected points. As they were mostly from two brilliant goals by Howson, and surely not to be repeated this year, I shudder at the prospect at this season end.

[Bill 1,788]

Trying looking at the pitch not the league table ... you will see how bad we are

[wooster 134]

A fortuitous win against Hull, no matter how bad the

performance, and a good draw against Newcastle will lift the players’ confidence

and I can see our performances improving. 

As you say, brighter days will come.

I think that’s all it will take – they don’t become bad

players overnight. 

[lake district canary 4,830]

[quote user="City1st"]Trying looking at the pitch not the league table ... you will see how bad we are[/quote]

Aside from the manager issues, a balanced view would be one that includes both the table and the pitch - and I''m not talking about Subbuteo.    The table that says there are only six points between 11 teams.   A pitch that tells you our squad is  stretched because of injury.     Then you might get view that throws light on some of our problems.   Hughton gets the blame - and it is his responsibility at the end of the day - but there is more to it than just tactics. 

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="TIL 1010"]

We still have to play Arsenal,Man City and Liverpool at home plus. Man Utd and Chelsea away.

Those fixtures and the returns yielded us a total of 9 points * which is a reasonable total against the five biggest clubs in the league and to date this season a total of 0 so far.The stark reality is that we are looking at 5 defeats in those remaining fixtures for this season so yes it is that bad. Those 9 points last season would make all the difference at the end of this season.

[/quote]

* last season.

[/quote]

So even if we get nothing from those games we are still looking at something like a 38 point season.

We are a 1 point per game team give or take a little and will remain so whether Hughton is Manager or someone else.
[/quote]

So are you saying we will get 18 points from the 12 games left ignoring the big 5 fixtures then Ricardo ? That is 1.5 points a game which we have underachieved throughout this current season. Maybe you could tell me when we will step up to the plate.

[/quote]

We''ve already played them once and have an average 1 point per game, give or take, for the season so far including those fixtures.  The likelihood is that we''ll carry on at the same level, and continue to get about a point per game on average, also including those fixtures.

 

Plus of course we have the fixtures against top teams at the end of the season.  Is it just possible some of them may be "on the beach" ?

[Orford65 0]

For those of you fearing the worst because of our difficult run-in, it''s worth having a look at the fixtures facing the other ten strugglers.Including Man U, loosely, as one of the best seven teams in the league, Sunderland have to play six of them away from home and host the other one, while Villa travel to meet five and entertain one. Both Cardiff and Fulham play four of them away and two at home and three at home respectively.Baggies have to play all seven, although five are at home.Our figure of two away and four at home is roughly on a par with our fellow strugglers.

[Tetteys Jig 851]

Is it better to have hard games at home and easy games away or easy games at home and hard games away?

We''ve all got to play just about everyone again.

[TIL 1010 5,246]

[quote user="Its Character Forming"]

 

Plus of course we have the fixtures against top teams at the end of the season.  Is it just possible some of them may be "on the beach" ?

[/quote]

All five are playing for Champions League spots so I doubt that very much especially as Man City,Chelsea and Arsenal seem to be taking it in turns to be top of the league.

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="Its Character Forming"]

Plus of course we have the fixtures against top teams at the end of the season.  Is it just possible some of them may be "on the beach" ?

[/quote]

All five are playing for Champions League spots so I doubt that very much especially as Man City,Chelsea and Arsenal seem to be taking it in turns to be top of the league.

[/quote]

It was a rhetorical question really.  Last season Man City were competing for both the league title and a CL place, but had nothing to play for by the final game, so it''s quite possible that one or more of the teams we play at the end will have nothing to play for.  Plenty of people just want to assume the worst.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="woostercanary"]

A fortuitous win against Hull, no matter how bad the

performance, and a good draw against Newcastle will lift the players’ confidence

and I can see our performances improving. 

As you say, brighter days will come.

I think that’s all it will take – they don’t become bad

players overnight. 

[/quote]They are not bad players, but they are hamstrung by incompetent management and tactics.Neither is it about confidence either (another urban myth) it is about application. At the moment, with these failing tactics, there looks little enthusiasm to play to that style - and it shows.Brighter days will only come with either Hughton changing his style of play and management or a new manager. My hope, desperately, is on the latter.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,138]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="woostercanary"]

A fortuitous win against Hull, no matter how bad the

performance, and a good draw against Newcastle will lift the players’ confidence

and I can see our performances improving. 

As you say, brighter days will come.

I think that’s all it will take – they don’t become bad

players overnight. 

[/quote]They are not bad players, but they are hamstrung by incompetent management and tactics.Neither is it about confidence either (another urban myth) it is about application. At the moment, with these failing tactics, there looks little enthusiasm to play to that style - and it shows.Brighter days will only come with either Hughton changing his style of play and management or a new manager. My hope, desperately, is on the latter.

[/quote]So basically, you don''t want the former to happen even though it would actually be the best in terms of stability, you just want rid, in which case it''s a personal vendetta for reasons only known to yourself. How pathetic.

[Alejandra 0]

I think we''ll be safe again this season, maybe it wont end as comfortable as the last 2 games last season, but we will keep up.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="City1st"]Trying looking at the pitch not the league table ... you will see how bad we are[/quote]

Aside from the manager issues, a balanced view would be one that includes both the table and the pitch - and I''m not talking about Subbuteo.    The table that says there are only six points between 11 teams.   A pitch that tells you our squad is  stretched because of injury.     Then you might get view that throws light on some of our problems.   Hughton gets the blame - and it is his responsibility at the end of the day - but there is more to it than just tactics. 

[/quote]Manager issues ?It is his kids now ?Whereas in reality this dire, stagnant and failed zonal play sh ite was failing this time last year ... and continued until the players thought fark this and got stuck in against WBA. If you had watched the game you would have seen the total change in play.If the failing Hughton was responsible for that change then why has he not continued with this winning style ?You can bleat all you like about injuries but we were playing this way when we did not have injuries, when we had different players - in fact in virtually all other variables.The bloke is not up to the task - appeasers and Quislings like you with your vacuous excuses cannot hide that fact.