Why do the players get off so lightly?

[hertfordyellow 462]

First of all, I have backed Hughton to get things right in the past but now feel there needs to be a change to save this season. Just saying this so you know it''s not a pro-Hughton discussion. All I read on this forum is that Hughton is useless, he can''t get the players to play, they lack spirit because Hughton is not setting them up right, players can''t pass forward because Hughton has coached creativity out of them, Whittaker has a bad game and it''s because Hughton has given him bad instructions. Why isn''t there more people more concerned by the attitude, passion and application of a the players!!! Way too much emphasis is put on managers when things are going well and way too much is put on a managers shoulders when results are poor. He didn''t pick a full strength team but he certainly didn''t pick the U21''s. He wanted a few fringe players to give it everything, play well and say there you go gaffer that''s what I can do now play me next week too. Apart from maybe Johnson and to an extent Murphy, the rest treated it like a friendly game. They should be ashamed of themselves. Hughton has made tactical mistakes sure but he didn''t plays some weird 3-1-3-2-1 formation or anything, it was a simple formation. The players were either arrogant enough to think they can pick up huge wages and not give a crap or cowards for not meeting the challenge of going behind and fighting to get back into the game.I think a management change is needed but last night was all about the players. People say Hughton can''t motivate players, well where does a sense of professionalism or competitive pride come into it? Why does a manager have to give some blinding Churchill like speech for the players to bother. We mollycoddle players and blame their failings on a man who can basically stand on the side and where he can change 3 players. They showed no personal or professional pride. Hughton has always been a big enough man to take responsibility for defeats to deflect the criticism from players, probably to his detriment because a majority of fans have focused every disappointment at one man and not questioned all the players that have collectively let him and you down. 

[Hannibal II 0]

From my point of view i think most of us have seen glimpses of what the players in our squad are capable of for example Man City away last year. The fact is we have good players who given the right encouragement and system would cause any team in the league a problem. The fact that we don''t cause ANY team a problem at all is distinctly the fault of the ethos placed on the players through tactics and communication from the manager.

[Indy_Bones 444]

Sorry, but some of our best players have been told to play a different game to what suits their abilities, been behind in plenty of games and seen the manager do little to nothing to change this (or even attempt to get something out of it), and had all the confidence and self-belief stripped out of them by a manager who would probably play a 9-0-1 formation if he thought he could get away with it!After 18 months of putting up with this rubbish, I think MY spirit and desire would be waning as well and the only team we''ve really seen the very best from our guys under Hughton has been when they''ve seemingly ripped his playbook up and decided to do their own thing (e.g. Everton, WBA and Man City last season).You wouldn''t blame a racing driver for having slow times if the team manager had insisted that he didn''t go above 100mph in a race, just like you wouldn''t blame a jockey for having to run on a lame horse, so why should the players be blamed for the shocking failings of the man appointed to get the best out of them???

[yellowdamien 0]

+ 1 for this.

I was chatting to my mate as we were walking to the tube after the game last night and it struck me that as much as we talk about Hughton, the players haven''t covered themselves in glory. I can understand people saying "Hughton isn''t motivating them" but if that was me in the dressing as a player I''d be ashamed of the way the team is playing week in week out and I''d want to rectify that for my own personal pride. I struggle to see any evidence of that from the players on matchday and while the focus is on Hughton right now they are just as culpable.

There were glimmers last night - Snodgrass in the second half was effort personified, RVW was doing everything he could to get something going, Johnno was battling and trying to surge forward, and little Murphs always tried to beat his man.

On the other hand, Whittaker was terrible, Fox limited, Becchio useless, Garrido average, Bassong didn''t inspire great confidence.

Maybe Hughton isn''t the right man to take us forward, but the players need to get their act together and find some pride.

[Tetteys Jig 851]

The reason is that it''s clear it''s not just 1 or 2 underperforming, but the whole class.

I guess if you look at any other management profession (Teaching, Team Leader etc). If the whole team is underperforming, it''s the managers fault.

If it''s individuals, it''s usually their fault, or is the beginning of a problem for the manager that ultimately turns into everyone not performing unless the initial problem is addressed.

I''d suggest the poor performances started with the strikers, as a result of us not hitting a barn door (through either poor player application or poor training/ tactics) this had a knock on effect on the whole team and the infection has now spread to the defence.

If a new manager isn''t up to it, we need a player to grab this team by the necks and drag them back into playing well. Could this be Fer? Bassong? RVW? Hooper? Snoddy? If one of them can''t be inspired by Hughton to turn some of the other lads games around then Hughton has lost the battle and should be sacked.

[hertfordyellow 462]

Indy_Bones : Personally I don''t see many players being played out of position, quite basic tactics really. They haven''t played very well, whether they like the tactics or not they need to take some responsibility for failing. Hughton isn''t telling them to miss 5 yard passes or to not bother tracking your man, it''s basic stuff that isn''t being done.

I take on your point about self-belief though

[Tetteys Jig 851]

It''s part of the infection of discontent that has now spread through the whole team. There''s probably only Olsson and Hooper living up to expectations at the moment. Olsson was at Blackburn the whole of Steve Kean''s reign, so must be pretty thick skinned and Hooper is a great player still riding the wave of form he had at Celtic

[Gingerpele 0]

The players don''t get off lightly.

Have you seen some of the abuse they''ve received this season? After every poor performance there is normally at least three threads started on hear slating different individuals. On twitter during a game you''ll find half a dozen players blamed for each goal conceded, etc etc....

They certainly don''t get off lightly. But Hughton is the manager, he''s in charge of selection, tactics, formation, development, set pieces etc etc etc etc and there are very few signs any of that is really going very well at the moment.

[Tetteys Jig 851]

Since Holty''s open criticism of Hughton''s tactics on morning supplement, I feel he''s had an uphill struggle to motivate the players from the forwards back to defence. As i mentioned, the infection started with the strikers, i would apportion most of the blame to the negative tactics upsetting the strikers. This morale has now spread through the squad and it''s very hard to arrest the slide without change in personnel.

Hughton was right to start with a solid base and he successfully built that, but he didn''t expand and evolve, something you constantly have to do at this level or you will fall behind. Our problems have now turned on a head and the defence has now turned into a shambles.

[Salopian 1]

With some managers and teams it is not so - they are dropped, verbally torn to shreds,even bonuses withheld. It may be that Hughton is such a pleasant individual that it is not in his nature to give a rollicking, and he believes that encouragement is what will triumph. (It is possible that he does exclude some because of subconscious desire to "punish". This could explain the long absences of Becchio, Fox and even Wes.

There was one match when things changed - at Stoke. We were aggressive, attacking and tackling, and it worked. Why has it not been repeated? Why have we had the dreary succession of sitting back and soaking up pressure, with the hope of scoring a goal on the break? I can''t explain the change in the one game. We have started brightly a few times, but nothing like Stoke. I think that this has to have been manager policy, not of the players themselves, or they could have repeated it.

Is it that he is a quiet man, who gives little in the way of instruction? This is hard to believe, as his whole future is on the line.

I suspect that the present dismal performances are the result of his basic approach, which the players don''t really accept, and which is now tempered by fear or anxiety and a failure in confidence.

[hertfordyellow 462]

[quote user="Salopian"]With some managers and teams it is not so - they are dropped, verbally torn to shreds,even bonuses withheld. It may be that Hughton is such a pleasant individual that it is not in his nature to give a rollicking, and he believes that encouragement is what will triumph. (It is possible that he does exclude some because of subconscious desire to "punish". This could explain the long absences of Becchio, Fox and even Wes.

There was one match when things changed - at Stoke. We were aggressive, attacking and tackling, and it worked. Why has it not been repeated? Why have we had the dreary succession of sitting back and soaking up pressure, with the hope of scoring a goal on the break? I can''t explain the change in the one game. We have started brightly a few times, but nothing like Stoke. I think that this has to have been manager policy, not of the players themselves, or they could have repeated it.

Is it that he is a quiet man, who gives little in the way of instruction? This is hard to believe, as his whole future is on the line.

I suspect that the present dismal performances are the result of his basic approach, which the players don''t really accept, and which is now tempered by fear or anxiety and a failure in confidence.[/quote]There you go, another excuse for the players, Hughtons fault, don''t worry lads nothing to do with you. Well I say it is to do with them as much as Hughton. The Stoke game went well, did we do anything other than out fight them and take ownership of the ball? we put in more desire than them and won, same team a few weeks later are not showing any of that. why? Can Hughton really affect 25 men''s morale so bad in a matter of weeks? If he can then he should be working for the Army behind enemy lines because that is one lethal weapon to have.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Jimmy Smith"]Since Holty''s open criticism of Hughton''s tactics on morning supplement, I feel he''s had an uphill struggle to motivate the players from the forwards back to defence. As i mentioned, the infection started with the strikers, i would apportion most of the blame to the negative tactics upsetting the strikers. This morale has now spread through the squad and it''s very hard to arrest the slide without change in personnel.

Hughton was right to start with a solid base and he successfully built that, but he didn''t expand and evolve, something you constantly have to do at this level or you will fall behind. Our problems have now turned on a head and the defence has now turned into a shambles.[/quote]The solid base you talk of was no more than having a second back four strung in front of the back four. Great if stifling the opposition was all the game was about.Great if the opposition were not able to counter this - they have by running at our defence (8 or 4) knowing that the players will simply funnel back off the opposition. You do not build a strong fort by removing all the walls from the back and piling them at the front of the fort.

We do not attack in force. When we have the ball the players remain static in order to endulge in theses silly little triangles which might over excite the nerdsand happy clappies but do nothing other than allow the opposition to reform and close us down.The man is completely out of his depth. Redmond does not seem to have improved his shooting but is still blasting the ball over the bar, Ruddy has the jitters as does Bassong. Fer, RVW, Becchio seem to have gone from free scoring players to almost failures.Virtually no player seems to have improved - but gone backwards.Square pegs in round holes ... Fer playing wide left ? Garrido in the midfield ?

[drurys testamonials V 15 0]

The players play the tactics told to them by the manager. They play in the positions they are told to, even if it''s out of their normal playing position meaning they then probably play less effectively. Whilst the manager cannot control every touch of the ball, he is in control of a number of deciding factors about the positions of the players.

[Howson is now! 0]

Posted in another thread:

You''re a manager, you are paid to put a team together to deliver a project, you are responsible for bringing them in, on paper they''re the best team you could have at your disposal, they''re not doing their jobs, targets are missed, deadlines go by, and all the while you floundering to try and get your team to do what they should be doing... Who gets the blame for that monumental c0ck up?

It''s what the manager is paid for and it is his sole responsibility to put the best team together and get the outcomes expected of him and his team.

Hughton is not doing that. Hasn''t been doing it for a long time. A lot of fans have been unbelievably patient, and for such a ruthless businessman, I really don''t see how McNally can continue to justify this man''s employment while his company''s stock continues to plummet!

[hertfordyellow 462]

[quote user="drurys testamonials V 15"]The players play the tactics told to them by the manager. They play in the positions they are told to, even if it''s out of their normal playing position meaning they then probably play less effectively. Whilst the manager cannot control every touch of the ball, he is in control of a number of deciding factors about the positions of the players.[/quote]Jesus wepth, we''ve got a whole generation who grew up with Andy Gray moving arrows on a screen and talking way too much about tactics that so many think the manager is some grand conductor who micro manages every players movement over the 90 mins. How long do you think the team talk is 3 hrs?He generally plays simple tactics with very few players out of position. Fer was on the left once, that was a bad idea, Elmander out right was another one but what about all the others? We credit way too much play to "tactics" rather than a players natural game. Someone mentioned Redmonds final ball hasn''t got any better in the last 3 months and thats down to Hughtons coaching!!!! Really? Seriously?

[hertfordyellow 462]

[quote user="Howson is now"]Posted in another thread:

You''re a manager, you are paid to put a team together to deliver a project, you are responsible for bringing them in, on paper they''re the best team you could have at your disposal, they''re not doing their jobs, targets are missed, deadlines go by, and all the while you floundering to try and get your team to do what they should be doing... Who gets the blame for that monumental c0ck up?

It''s what the manager is paid for and it is his sole responsibility to put the best team together and get the outcomes expected of him and his team.

Hughton is not doing that. Hasn''t been doing it for a long time. A lot of fans have been unbelievably patient, and for such a ruthless businessman, I really don''t see how McNally can continue to justify this man''s employment while his company''s stock continues to plummet![/quote]This has cheered me up, i''m going to go to work tomorrow with a big bag of crisps and some beers, crack one open and relax in my chair instead of doing the job that others are relying on me to do and if anyone says anything about it i''ll quote that it''s my manager''s sole responsibility to get the best out of his team and it''s his failing not my laziness. Woo looking forward to work tomorrow now :)

[Indy_Bones 444]

[quote user="hertfordyellow"]Jesus wept, we''ve got a whole generation who grew up with Andy Gray moving arrows on a screen and talking way too much about tactics that so many think the manager is some grand conductor who micro manages every players movement over the 90 mins. How long do you think the team talk is 3 hrs?[/quote]Sorry, but that''s just utter carp.Even with very basic instructions you can completely change the way a player impacts the game.Tell Redmond to run at the defender every chance he gets, that''s what he''ll doTell him not to run at the defender and instead play more cautiously by passing balls towards the centre and that''s what he''ll doTell him to make crosses as early as possible and that''s what he''ll doTell him instead to try to get to the byline and cross and that''s what he''ll doFour different (and very simple) instructions that will totally change what the player does on the pitch and how this interacts with the other 10 men on the pitch alongside him.Now imagine you get these simple instructions ''wrong'' across a large percentage of the team, and not only do you have players not playing in a manner that suits their natural abilities and style of play, but you also have other players that can''t perform because of it. If you have a striker who relies on his height and strength to get to crosses but then tell the wingers to cut inside and play it on the floor, you''ve completely nullified the main asset of that striker through that very basic decision.[quote]Someone mentioned Redmonds final ball hasn''t got any better in the last 3 months and thats down to Hughtons coaching!!!! Really? Seriously?[/quote]Hang on, are you seriously suggesting that it''s NOT the responsibility of the manager and his coaching staff to improve the weak points in a player''s game???If the player''s final ball is poor, then you either have to work on improving that final ball, or using the player in a different way which mitigates the need for them to do this as much.Regardless of which, it''s the job of the coaching staff to try to make this happen, and a player who shows ZERO change in an area like this despite it hindering the play at times is either being let down by those staff (in which case it''s clearly their fault), or he''s doing exactly what they say and the manager isn''t making the neccessary changes to deal with this (either by changing his instructions/style of play, or dropping the player until it improves to some degree), ergo it''s the manager''s fault.The only time you could argue that it''s not their fault is if they''re working with the player constantly to improve this and they are deliberately resisting this coaching because they don''t agree with it, in that case the player is the problem, but that probably happens about 1 time in a 100 rather than being anything close to the norm.

[hertfordyellow 462]

Indy_bones do you play championship manager by any chance? You really have a unrealistic view of football in my opinion. Does Hughton press a "tell Redmond to not run at player" button and suddenly he is a stifled player who plays like a fullback. He is a winger, he is in the team to be a winger, he will run at players if it is his natural game. Do you think Hughton sits down with every player for an hour before kickoff going through everything they need to do? A coaching staff can encourage players to get better at crossing but they can''t make players physically get better. On your championship manager screen you press a little dial and he suddenly gets better at crossing in a few months, don''t have such a thing in real life. And whats stopping a player, I don''t know trying to better himself rather than to wait for the coaching staff to tell him to do it? Scholes use to spend hours passing at trees to improve, Gerrard use to spend hours kicking a ball hard at a wall to improve control. You can''t honestly believe that a player will get better or not purely because of the manager mate surely you can''t be that blinded by Hughton hate to think that?

[MancCanary 0]

Great thread. Some really well written and thoughtful comments and interesting opinions. Makes a nice change from the majority of this board.

The discussion is a bit like the nature vs nurture debate about why a person ends up the way they are as an adult - is it predetermined or purely governed by their experiences.

With our problems, I''d say its mainly managerial. But the players are also part of the problem. Premiership players live in a bubble, like child film stars. All they know is football, and they have nothing else to compare to really, which is why they are often mentally fragile. I think that''s why players from the lower leagues who''ve had a taste of real life tend to be tougher and put more effort and passion into their games.

[Indy_Bones 444]

Oh joy, another fanboy who''s trolling out the Championship Manager lines whilst clearly showing they have no clue what they''re talking about.Players do NOT go out on the pitch and do whatever they feel like UNLESS THE MANAGER TELLS THEM TO, if they did this the manager would soon drop them or give them the hairdryer treatment after the game along with a warning about their behaviour for refusing to play within the system and style of play he''s looking to acheive.Are you really that naive to think that the manager cannot (and does not) give some basic instructions about what he wants from the player on matchday, throughout an entire week of training and working on how they''re going to play against their next opponents???Players perform the roles that the manager asks them to, so if he says he wants Tettey to play infront of the backline and simply break up play then make a simple ball to a more technically gifted player, then that''s what he''ll do, what he won''t do is think "F**k this, I''m going to play how I like" and then spend the next 90 minutes playing off the front man and attempting outrageous overhead kicks at every opportunity.If you cannot understand even this simple concept, then there''s no point even trying to come back with a rejoinder, because it''ll simply be poorly informed nonsense, that wastes both your time typing it and my time reading it...

[Guest]

So, I''m not sure if I get this management lark, but it seems that Houghton is forgetting to tell the boys not to make ridiculous individual defensive errors?

I reckon I could do that, where do I sign up?

[LostTheFaith 0]

Great thread.

Yes, the players should take just as much blame when we are bad as the manager and the manager should take just as much of the pundits when we are good

Very easy to blame one person though.

Our players do not consistently don''t he basic properly. Poor touches, poor passing and poor decisions. That is not the managers fault.

To blame the collective inability of our hero''s is not the done thing so lets put it all on the manager. His tactics are very simple to follow. Our squad of championship players are simply not good enough.

[LostTheFaith 0]

Plaudits !!

[hertfordyellow 462]

Indy_bones "Are you really that naive to think that the manager cannot (and does not) give some basic instructions about what he wants from the player on matchday"

You said it yourself "basic instructions". Of course Hughton shoulders large parts of the blame but I am disagreeing with the over the top drivel of people picking on a piece of play and then blaming hughton for telling/ not telling a player to do something. He sets up the team and gives basic instructions but after that you are relying on the individual to play with talent within the relm of the job given to them.

Hughton isn''t telling them not to mark a player or to muck up a simple pass is he surely?

You seem rather rattled, need to calm down mate. I can understand simple footballing concepts they just happen to differ to yours,I understand what you are saying I just reject it as sky sports over egged bollox.

But then I probably don''t have your experience in such matters, what are you on season 2017/2018 with Norwich in the Champions league? couldn''t resist :)

OH I CAN SHOUT TOO, IT''S REALLY FUN ISN''T IT?

[ron obvious 1,711]

This is quite an interesting thread, & opens up the door to another possible explanation (if only partial) of our woes:

The squad aren''t good enough. They consist of decent, consistent players who play at a similar level & are always committed (Martin), or gifted quality players (Fer) who, for whatever reason, tend to go missing in games/ only one good game every so often.

Some people bang on about our spending this summer, but if you compare it to other Prem clubs over, say, 5 seasons - or compare the total values of squads - plus the wages we pay - I reckon we''re well down the list.

I''m not saying this is the only explanation, or that a different manager might squeeze more out of the squad, but ultimately money talks. Unfortunately.

[Guest]

Ron, I fully agree but that, but would add we''ve had consistent injuries throughout the season so I can''t really think of too many times we would have had our "best 11" available to the manager. We do not yet have the depth to our squad to comfortably cope with players like Pilks, Tettey and Howson being out.

It''s all excuses, but certainly, not being able to field a consistent and settled side has not helped squad confidence.

[hertfordyellow 462]

[quote user="ron obvious"]This is quite an interesting thread, & opens up the door to another possible explanation (if only partial) of our woes:

The squad aren''t good enough. They consist of decent, consistent players who play at a similar level & are always committed (Martin), or gifted quality players (Fer) who, for whatever reason, tend to go missing in games/ only one good game every so often.

Some people bang on about our spending this summer, but if you compare it to other Prem clubs over, say, 5 seasons - or compare the total values of squads - plus the wages we pay - I reckon we''re well down the list.

I''m not saying this is the only explanation, or that a different manager might squeeze more out of the squad, but ultimately money talks. Unfortunately.[/quote]This is also a good point about quality. As I point out in the OP, this isn''t a pro-Hughton thread but people are making themselves look silly by focusing everything that is wrong on his shoulders. If/when the manager is sacked this will still be a struggling squad with players who for a majority of the season have not done the basics right. I just think it''s strange how many on the board have attacked Hughton with such vigor yet almost feel sorry for the players because they have to play under the man even though for vast majorities of the season they have not played well individually. It''s funny because at Aston Villa you have a lot of fans calling Lambert a clown and a poor manager, we know he isn''t it just isn''t working for him for various reasons as well as his own performance, the same can be said for Hughton. He isn''t a clown, he isn''t worse than Roeder (some idiot said this), his effort has been massive but things haven''t worked out. I think he has been found below Premiership standard, like Holloway and doesn''t have the nature or instinct to move a club like this on in the most difficult league but he''s not rubbish. I know 3 Birmingham fans who are very grateful for the job he did in stabilising that sinking ship.We brought in new players but as you point out it kind of masked the thread bare nature of the squad before the summer. It still isn''t good enough to cope well with the injury list we have / had. The back four has been without the main 2 centre backs at various times which can''t help for example.

[Syteanric 1]

I have often wondered this.. whenever a club does badly its always the manager who gets the boot... in any other form of work if you don''t perform to the standard you get the sack... your manager doesn''t.

in the days we have now of bonkers foreign owners at clubs I wonder one day if we might see the first players "sacked" for lack of ability/suitability to the role etc?

[Yellow Wal 315]

hertford - Following the first Fulham cup match Josh Murphy was interviewed on Radio Norfolk. During the interview he said of his game that "he was encouraged to come inside and shoot".

The fact that we scored that day by him getting to the byline and crossing for Snodgrass to score seems that he went against what he was told.

Nevertheless the wing play that we see from both flanks, inverted wingers, does stem from the management and dictates the style of play. To blame the players for doing what they are instructed is lunacy. We fail to entertain and score because of this, because of managerial instruction.

So why do the players get off so lightly? Because they are doing what they are told .............. and it isn''t working!

[Guest]

Yellow Wall, I think that''s nonsense. Just because the boy is encouraged to cut inside and have a shot you think that equals Houghton telling him never to get to the byline to cross? You are just trying to read too much into things to support the point you are trying to make.

In addition, we have seen the wingers frequently interchanging sides in a fluid formation in the majority of recent games, so clearly they are not just playing as inverted wingers.

The simple fact is that we are lacking confidence in the final third which is leading to lack of good decision making and quality in the final ball. We have got in great crossing positions numerous times this season, only for the players to execute the vital pass poorly.

Still don''t let me get in the way of your ranting.