Apologies Due

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Net spend is far more important.   Hughton was lucky none of his players were poached in the summer.  Swansea lost their best players and have grown since.  And lets be clear, Hughton has had a budget of at least 16 million this season as the RvW signing has proven.

As for his record compared to NW... Hughton could easily be sacked by Christmas.  He has not achieved anything like what Worthy did.  There is nothing he has achieved which compares to our promotion season and play-off season.  Worthington is a worthy legend at the club for good reason. Hughton could easily surpass this, but not on this season''s performance by any stretch,  He took a side finishing 12th and has taken them to 11th during a dismal season of negative football.
[/quote]

 

Net spend is only far more important in terms of trying to justify your assertion! The context of the spend related to the "tons of money spent" - therefore, the amount of money that CH and NW spent on getting new players. The inference being that CH spent tons of money whist NW didn''t - a bit disingenuous!

 

As for the relative record of the 2 managers - I gave my reason for my opinion, and you gave yours - both are equally valid (even if my one is the correct one [:P]) - so on this point I think we can agree to disagree.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]nutty nigel: Yeah but Hughton''s tactics got 44 points from 38 games. That''s 2 less than the master tactician Laudrup. -------------------------------------------- Laudrup won them a cup. And lets be fair to Swansea, they have been on the beach since making 40 points. But why would we want Laudrup anyway. Our manager is currently successful.[/quote]

 

Laudrup and Swanselona have been the stick CUSDP has used to beat Hughton with. In the end it was a fine margin. That is if you discount that "on the beach" bollox.

 [/quote]

The Swansea Cup run will also have meant that they took their eyes off of the Prem for a few games. They would have finished safe probably even earlier but for that. If you think that Cup runs don''t detract from Prem performance look at Wigan, Brum, Middlesbrough, Sunderland and us in recent years !!

[nutty nigel 7,536]

Soooooooo anyway.....

 

Was Holt an unfit fat and useless red card waiting to happen? Were those jibes really just "showing concern"? Or were they made up to try and discredit our talisman?

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,536]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]nutty nigel: Yeah but Hughton''s tactics got 44 points from 38 games. That''s 2 less than the master tactician Laudrup. -------------------------------------------- Laudrup won them a cup. And lets be fair to Swansea, they have been on the beach since making 40 points. But why would we want Laudrup anyway. Our manager is currently successful.[/quote]

 

Laudrup and Swanselona have been the stick CUSDP has used to beat Hughton with. In the end it was a fine margin. That is if you discount that "on the beach" bollox.

 [/quote]

The Swansea Cup run will also have meant that they took their eyes off of the Prem for a few games. They would have finished safe probably even earlier but for that. If you think that Cup runs don''t detract from Prem performance look at Wigan, Brum, Middlesbrough, Sunderland and us in recent years !!

[/quote]

 

Soooooo in your knowledge of factors to excuse points dropped which would be more damaging out of Swanselona''s cup run and Ruddy''s injury?

 

 

[Holtcantshoot 0]

It would be dependent on exactly how they were vilifying him clearly (saying they didn''t think he was good enough for the job is something all managers face from sections of fans when they lose consistently). I think most anger on message boards from myself included comes from disappointment when we lose which turns to annoyance and festers when we play poorly for a prolonged period of time. If I''d had a crystal ball and knew that Wigan would get 1 point from their last 2 games and we would go from 1 win in 2 months to beating the side 2nd in the table and getting our biggest home win of the season I certainly wouldn''t have criticised Hughton either.I didn''t hear a lot of direct criticism towards CH specifically in home matches though. Message boards are overall a more savory way of venting annoyance at poor performances.I don''t think he was too poor this year, he stabilised the club in a difficult season of transition and overall probably did a better job the Paul Lambert would have done. He''s got a long hard road to navigate before he becomes impervious to criticism for poor results however.Personally I think he''s already started the summer period well shipping out a lot of dead wood and bringing in a marquee signing to give fans a boost going into the new season. Interesting to see what happens.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]nutty nigel: Yeah but Hughton''s tactics got 44 points from 38 games. That''s 2 less than the master tactician Laudrup. -------------------------------------------- Laudrup won them a cup. And lets be fair to Swansea, they have been on the beach since making 40 points. But why would we want Laudrup anyway. Our manager is currently successful.[/quote]

 

Laudrup and Swanselona have been the stick CUSDP has used to beat Hughton with. In the end it was a fine margin. That is if you discount that "on the beach" bollox.

 [/quote]

The Swansea Cup run will also have meant that they took their eyes off of the Prem for a few games. They would have finished safe probably even earlier but for that. If you think that Cup runs don''t detract from Prem performance look at Wigan, Brum, Middlesbrough, Sunderland and us in recent years !!

[/quote]

 

Soooooo in your knowledge of factors to excuse points dropped which would be more damaging out of Swanselona''s cup run and Ruddy''s injury?

 [/quote]

Sooooooooo you think that Ruddy would never have made a mistake if he had been available all season ?  No goalkeeper is infallible and I do remember some howlers by him last season, especially against Man City.  Bunn did ok IMO and the ''mistake'' against Reading cost us nothing anyway.  

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

So... Not content with saying that QD was a better option than the likes of Holt, Mr Moy is NOW trying to say that Ruddy coming back hasnt made any difference...

Give me strength...

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="paul moy"]

Sooooooooo you think that Ruddy would never have made a mistake if he had been available all season ?  No goalkeeper is infallible and I do remember some howlers by him last season, especially against Man City.  Bunn did ok IMO and the ''mistake'' against Reading cost us nothing anyway.

[/quote]

 

Sooooooooooo, don''t you think that Ruddy would have saved Agbonlahor''s shot against AV?

 

The point about JR is his presence in the area and the confidence he gives to the rest of the team - as good as Bunn was, he wasn''t as good as JR and didn''t give the same feel of assurance. Who knows how many points that presence at the back could have given us - through extrapolation, I have estimated elsewhere that had he been available for the whole season, we could have finished in 8th on 53 points

[Holtcantshoot 0]

Pilkington made a massive difference as well. Him and "Snodders" are a class above what Elliott Bennett and Kei Kamara were offering as Wing forwards. He had a period where both his left side options in Pilks and Surman were out which coincided with games where we failed to register a shot on target. Just look at the first goal against Man City, no other Norwich player could finish with that level of composure.

[nutty nigel 7,536]

Going right back to Man City at home Ruddy''s absence has been a huge factor. Hughton was rightly praised for having Bunn there for that purpose and Bunn may well have been the difference between staying up and being relegated. But Ruddy is an exceptional talent. And England goalkeeper who''s value to us is only really recognised when he''s missing. We could never expect to have anyone anywhere near that level on the bench or available to loan. It just wouldn''t happen. Suggesting that this mythical "on the beach" syndrome is more costly than losing an England goalkeeper is ridiculous. But it seems some posters on here will do anything to put down the achievements of the club they supposedly support. Unbelievable Jeff!

 

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="ABC"][quote user="paul moy"]

Sooooooooo you think that Ruddy would never have made a mistake if he had been available all season ?  No goalkeeper is infallible and I do remember some howlers by him last season, especially against Man City.  Bunn did ok IMO and the ''mistake'' against Reading cost us nothing anyway.

[/quote]

 

Sooooooooooo, don''t you think that Ruddy would have saved Agbonlahor''s shot against AV?

 

The point about JR is his presence in the area and the confidence he gives to the rest of the team - as good as Bunn was, he wasn''t as good as JR and didn''t give the same feel of assurance. Who knows how many points that presence at the back could have given us - through extrapolation, I have estimated elsewhere that had he been available for the whole season, we could have finished in 8th on 53 points

[/quote]Playing for draws, we would never had made 53 points, but playing for wins we had the quality to finish up to 7th, as I said earlier in the season and as shown in the last two games. Look how a couple of wins got us up the table !!!  We were hamstrung by the manager''s caution and inability to recognise that we had untapped quality in the squad (Howson, E Bennett and Holt in particular) , not by the loss of Ruddy.

[nutty nigel 7,536]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="ABC"][quote user="paul moy"]

Sooooooooo you think that Ruddy would never have made a mistake if he had been available all season ?  No goalkeeper is infallible and I do remember some howlers by him last season, especially against Man City.  Bunn did ok IMO and the ''mistake'' against Reading cost us nothing anyway.

[/quote]

 

Sooooooooooo, don''t you think that Ruddy would have saved Agbonlahor''s shot against AV?

 

The point about JR is his presence in the area and the confidence he gives to the rest of the team - as good as Bunn was, he wasn''t as good as JR and didn''t give the same feel of assurance. Who knows how many points that presence at the back could have given us - through extrapolation, I have estimated elsewhere that had he been available for the whole season, we could have finished in 8th on 53 points

[/quote]

Playing for draws, we would never had made 53 points, but playing for wins we had the quality to finish up to 7th, as I said earlier in the season and as shown in the last two games. Look how a couple of wins got us up the table !!! 
We were hamstrung by the manager''s caution and inability to recognise that we had untapped quality in the squad (Howson, E Bennett and Holt in particular) , not by the loss of Ruddy.
[/quote]

 

So what were Swanselona and Villa hamstrung by?

 

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="ABC"][quote user="paul moy"]

Sooooooooo you think that Ruddy would never have made a mistake if he had been available all season ?  No goalkeeper is infallible and I do remember some howlers by him last season, especially against Man City.  Bunn did ok IMO and the ''mistake'' against Reading cost us nothing anyway.

[/quote]

 

Sooooooooooo, don''t you think that Ruddy would have saved Agbonlahor''s shot against AV?

 

The point about JR is his presence in the area and the confidence he gives to the rest of the team - as good as Bunn was, he wasn''t as good as JR and didn''t give the same feel of assurance. Who knows how many points that presence at the back could have given us - through extrapolation, I have estimated elsewhere that had he been available for the whole season, we could have finished in 8th on 53 points

[/quote]Playing for draws, we would never had made 53 points, but playing for wins we had the quality to finish up to 7th, as I said earlier in the season and as shown in the last two games. Look how a couple of wins got us up the table !!!  We were hamstrung by the manager''s caution and inability to recognise that we had untapped quality in the squad (Howson, E Bennett and Holt in particular) , not by the loss of Ruddy. [/quote]

 

So what were Swanselona and Villa hamstrung by?

[/quote]I''ve already answered on Swansea, and Villa were going through a highly transitional season, bringing in many raw, naive, untried youngsters. In those circumstances, Lambert did a good job.  If he had gone for draws Villa would have been relegated IMO as their defending was so poor, but Lambert''s attacking philosophy of scoring more than conceding saw them through.

[Holtcantshoot 0]

Norwich were also going through a massive transitional season (more so after 2 back to back promotions and one season in the Premier league) Villa have been in the Premier league since it began (where''s the transition?). We still had League One players in our squad such as Korey Smith, Holt et al.Generally most managers have the philosophy of "scoring more than conceding". You may even say that''s the overall point of football.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Holtcantshoot"]Norwich were also going through a massive transitional season (more so after 2 back to back promotions and one season in the Premier league) Villa have been in the Premier league since it began (where''s the transition?). We still had League One players in our squad such as Korey Smith, Holt et al.Generally most managers have the philosophy of "scoring more than conceding". You may even say that''s the overall point of football.[/quote]Yes, we had a massive transition from attacking potence to defensive impotence,  but with basically the same squad.  Lambert made many more changes to his squad so he had the more difficult job. Hughton created a more difficult job than he needed to. On your last observation, you clearly miss the point regarding Hughton. [:D]

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

Guys, this is becoming silly!

 

Let''s just accept that some people are going to slate the team and / or the manager no matter what! Certainly no self respecting supporter would constantly belittle their club / team (unless of course, it was "them down the road")

 

It seems that some of us have made the fundamental flaw of not bowing at the temple of gung-ho! The strange thing is, I used to have so much time for Mr Lambert, but these incessant twitterings of the HOBNOBs have actually had a negative impact on my views on him.

 

Anyhow, onwards and upwards chaps - I''m going to continue to support the board, management and players of NCFC and look forward to another year in the PL

[Holtcantshoot 0]

True, I was generally just being obstinate about the footballing philosophy point.Interestingly however both us and Villa won 10 games each, the only difference was Villa lost more often.On the other hand though the 3 extra draws were bloody boring to watch.

[nutty nigel 7,536]

[quote user="Holtcantshoot"]True, I was generally just being obstinate about the footballing philosophy point.

Interestingly however both us and Villa won 10 games each, the only difference was Villa lost more often.

On the other hand though the 3 extra draws were bloody boring to watch.
[/quote]

 

Or they might have been Swansea and the two against Spurs?

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="morty"]The point being Mr Foghorn, as much as you may not like it, Mr Hughton knows 42 million* times more about football than you do.

*Figure is based on the entire season.[/quote]

 

The trouble with that kind of argument is that Keanu Reeves knows more about acting than I do but...[;)]

[Holtcantshoot 0]

Overall I think we just need to be more confident in taking on the poorer teams in the league, as we can clearly beat the best we aren''t quite as poor as Hughton seemed to think at times this year. I''m sure this was partly brought on by the infamous 5-0 away defeat first game of the season and the loss of our first choice keeper in December. Once he''s got more of his own men in place I''m sure we''ll push on next year and start taking opponents like Wigan, Stoke and Southampton to task.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) wrote: As for the relative record of the 2 managers - I gave my reason for my opinion, and you gave yours - both are equally valid (even if my one is the correct one ) - so on this point I think we can agree to disagree.

----------------------------------

Hoot has so far taken a mid table team, and in one season kept them in almost exactly the same place. Nothing exceptional so far, good players have been signed but there has been no improvement in results as yet.

Worthy took over a team flirting with relegation, kept them up, turned them into contenders, and subsequently champions.

[Thisisbabyish 0]

CJF what do you class as improvement!?

Europe!? Champions league!? Messi and Ronaldo to sign!?

Get real!!

[Holtcantshoot 0]

[quote user="Thisisbabyish"]CJF what do you class as improvement!?

Europe!? Champions league!? Messi and Ronaldo to sign!?

Get real!![/quote]Wigan and Swansea are in Europe. To achieve that this year I think we would have had to have beaten Aston Villa, Bradford and Swansea in the Carling Cup. Was that really beyond our capabilities?

[Thisisbabyish 0]

Wigan got relegated!

You''d swap Prem for Europa League and Championship!?

Swansea will either go out early or struggle in the league their squad, wigans squad and ours are not designed or capable of European football!

maybe in 2 or 3 more seasons yes! with more players like RVW and Bassong yes!

anyone wishing it on our club now doesn''t know football!

[Yellow Wal 314]

Citizen Journalist Foghorn wrote the following post at 22/05/2013 9:50 AM:

......... Net spend is far more important. Hughton was lucky none of his players were poached in the summer. Swansea lost their best players and have grown since. And lets be clear, Hughton has had a budget of at least 16 million this season as the RvW signing has proven.

Back to the thread ......... why do you think none of our players were poached? .................

Yes, Swansea had two of their best players ''poached'' but that gave them around £20M to play with.

paul moy wrote the following post at 22/05/2013 11:09 AM:

.......... We were hamstrung by the manager''s caution and inability to recognise that we had untapped quality in the squad (Howson, E Bennett and Holt in particular) , not by the loss of Ruddy.

I would have thought after your assessment of player''s quality in the past you would stay clear of such statements. Holt and Howson are OK but, sorry, E Bennett is not up to the quality we now need. Still a good player, but not a Premiership player. Were you calling for Simeon Jackson to be playing a while back?

Citizen Journalist Foghorn wrote the following post at 22/05/2013 12:30 PM:

........... Hoot has so far taken a mid table team, and in one season kept them in almost exactly the same place. Nothing exceptional so far, good players have been signed but there has been no improvement in results as yet.

Hoot has also changed the abysmal end to last season when we lost 8 and drew 3 of our last 14 matches. The writing was on the wall then and that is why such drastic changes to style were needed.

Strange that we hear of Hoots bad run this season but never of the last 14 games of last season.

[Holtcantshoot 0]

[quote user="Thisisbabyish"]Wigan got relegated!

You''d swap Prem for Europa League and Championship!?

Swansea will either go out early or struggle in the league their squad, wigans squad and ours are not designed or capable of European football!

maybe in 2 or 3 more seasons yes! with more players like RVW and Bassong yes!

anyone wishing it on our club now doesn''t know football![/quote]I certainly wouldn''t swap Premier league football for the Europa League, it''s an irrelevant tin-pot trophy won by Champions League rejects.

[Thisisbabyish 0]

Glad to hear it!

Would you rather us or Swansea given the size of our squads travelling to FC Afganistan or wherever their qualifying game will be on a tues or wednesday only to face a league game the same weekend!?

Rather them than us!

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"] Strange that we hear of Hoots bad run this season but never of the last 14 games of last season.[/quote]

 

Yellow Wall, that''s because it flies in the face of "his lordship" being infallible! Now you''ll cop it from "that lot" [li]

[morty 0]

Europe league would be a poison chalice for a club with our size / quality of squad. It very nearly ruined Newcastle''s season.

So right now? No thanks.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]

paul moy wrote the following post at 22/05/2013 11:09 AM:

.......... We were hamstrung by the manager''s caution and inability to recognise that we had untapped quality in the squad (Howson, E Bennett and Holt in particular) , not by the loss of Ruddy.

I would have thought after your assessment of player''s quality in the past you would stay clear of such statements. Holt and Howson are OK but, sorry, E Bennett is not up to the quality we now need. Still a good player, but not a Premiership player. Were you calling for Simeon Jackson to be playing a while back? [/quote]

Gross misrepresentation as usual. I never rated Jackson or Chris Martin.  My only argument over Cody was that he had better bravery, pace, heading ability and attitude and would score more goals in his career than those two, nobody else. The jury is still out and Cody has been injured far more than those two which probably endorses my view on his bravery. Were my views on Martin and Jackson wrong ? I think not.