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pete_norw

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Mark Bunn sent off for accidental hand ball outside the box, Sunderland keeper yellow card for deliberate hand ball from pass back, Why should it be different    

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My understanding was that Bunn was sent off for preventing a clear goal scoring opportunity, rather than the handball specifically. I thought the ref clarified that after the game, didn''t he?

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Bunn''s "handball" was outside the penalty area, and was deemed to be denying a goal-scoring opportunity. The Sunderland keeper was inside his box and caught a back-pass, so I suppose the referee sees it as that. However, it definitely denied a goal scoring opportunity - would have been the own-goal of the season, so yes it does seem unjust

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Ref did the right thing, the infringement by the Sunderland ''keeper was a foul, for which he was booked and a free-kick was given.

Bunn was sent off as he was the last man, handled, and denied a clear goal scoring opportunity.

Harsh, but fair, sadly

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[quote user="AJ"]Ref did the right thing, the infringement by the Sunderland ''keeper was a foul, for which he was booked and a free-kick was given. Bunn was sent off as he was the last man, handled, and denied a clear goal scoring opportunity. Harsh, but fair, sadly[/quote]

Spot on.

OK I''m going to throw another one into the mix.

Hypothetical situation - Holt gets clattered by a defender resulting in a free kick just outside their penalty area. The injury requires the trainer/physio/medic coming on and Holt therefore has to leave the field of play.

Why?

We have just won a free kick and our potent threat has to leave the field while the kick is taken. Having won the free kick all of our advantage has been removed. So, why does this not apply to goalkeepers? It should be a blanket rule or not at all, preferably not at all!

Thoughts?

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totally agree Wazz. one of the most ludicrous rules in the game. i remember a match a few years ago when Malky and Flemm were both injured in the same incident and the ball went out for a corner. they both had to go off the field while the corner was taken. as i said, ludicrous.

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Yes, this is another one that annoys me. I believe it was introduced to speed up the game, so that players could have their treatment completed off the pitch, and the game could continue. However, it is unfair on the team offended against, so to even things up, the player who committed the foul should be made to leave the field as well, until the injured player is able to return.

Goalkeepers obviously have to be special case, and it makes sense to allow them to stay on (though it makes just as much sense to allow any player to stay on, as they always used to).

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No one has explained the difference - if the Sunderland keeper didn''t catch the ball it would have been a GOAL so how is that less bad than Bunn''s offence which merely denied an opportunity on goal? Ignoring whether Bunn''s handball was intentional

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[quote user="Foghorn"]Yes, this is another one that annoys me. I believe it was introduced to speed up the game, so that players could have their treatment completed off the pitch, and the game could continue. However, it is unfair on the team offended against, so to even things up, the player who committed the foul should be made to leave the field as well, until the injured player is able to return.

Goalkeepers obviously have to be special case, and it makes sense to allow them to stay on (though it makes just as much sense to allow any player to stay on, as they always used to).[/quote]
It was indeed introduced to speed the game up, the logic behind it was preventing players timewasting by feigning injuries, however the way it has ended up is not exactly ideal. 
The suggestion you make is also open to abuse if a 5''2 winger gets taken out by a 6''5 centre half in a decent position, the smaller player may just feel that an injury to get the centre half off the pitch for the set piece is a good idea. I offer no better solution though, and happen to agree that at the moment that is probably the best way forward. 

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[quote user="Pyro Pete"]My understanding was that Bunn was sent off for preventing a clear goal scoring opportunity, rather than the handball specifically. I thought the ref clarified that after the game, didn''t he?[/quote]Clear as mud. Accidental handball is not an offence, any denial of a clear goal scoring opportunity is not an offence per se, and would still require a primary offence to have been committed otherwise any save by a ''keeper or any outfield player constitutes such an offence. By claiming Bunn was sent off for denying the opportunity the ref impliedly admits that an offence has been committed which then made the secondary act of denying the goal scoring opportunity unlawful.Upon true construction of the appropriate FA law it is impossible for the ref to claim the sending off was for denial of a cgso without admitting that the handball was deemed deliberate ie a foul. To claim it was simply for denying a cgso is just a cop out which might fool some but is incompatible with the laws of the game.That the ball was travelling away from the Norwich goal when the handball (if indeed it was handball) occured further compounds the deliberate misinterpretation of their own laws by the FA since the ball must be travelling towards the goal.Deny it all he likes, by issuing a red card the ref has adjudged that the handball was deliberate and occurred at a time when the ball was travelling towards the Norwich goal, in any Court of Law such a decision would have been overturned according to the provable facts, in the FA''s very peculiar appeals process the appeal was rejected despite the facts proving if nothing else that the ball was not travelling towards the Norwich goal at the instance of the perceived foul.And the Op makes a very good point indeed, if the ball is travelling towards the goal and a foul is committed intentionally or accidentally then the clear goal scoring opportunity criteria is met , the sanction for which is a red card.For me the correct decision according to the laws of the game would have been indirect free kick for the offence of handling and a red card for denying a cgso.

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I don''t think the ref denied it was a deliberate handball did he Zak? It was deliberate, but had it been a deliberate handball by the corner flag he may have got a yellow or nothing. I''m not sure the ball was going overly away from the goal either; Bunn had come rushing out, had Bunn missed the ball (for instance), it would have landed straight at the striker''s feet just inside the box and almost central.

As long as the ref believed Bunn''s handball to be deliberate, it was a red card, undoubtedly.

As for the Mignolet back pass, the ref yesterday didn''t even have to show a yellow; it''s not mandatory in those circumstances according to FIFA''s rules.

But therefore if there''s a short back pass being chased down by a forward and the keeper dives on it inside his box, it''s an indirect freekick with no necessary sanction. If he does the same thing two yards further forward and is just outside the box, it is a red card and a direct freekick. Doesn''t seem particularly fair but there you go.

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I agree, the Sunderland keeper yesterday should have been red carded. He denied a clear goalscoring opportunity, one that was going in, by foul means. He was also the last man so I agree it is strange how he was not sent off.

Bunn was last man and so was Mignolet yesterday. Odd how the decision of yellow came about.

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[quote user="flecky76"]I agree, the Sunderland keeper yesterday should have been red carded. He denied a clear goalscoring opportunity, one that was going in, by foul means. He was also the last man so I agree it is strange how he was not sent off. Bunn was last man and so was Mignolet yesterday. Odd how the decision of yellow came about.[/quote]

The problem here is the fact that the ''deliberate backpass'' only carries a yellow card as a punishment.

I''m sure PDC would have been furious had he let it in to avoid a card!

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[quote user="First Wazzock"]

[quote user="flecky76"]I agree, the Sunderland keeper yesterday should have been red carded. He denied a clear goalscoring opportunity, one that was going in, by foul means. He was also the last man so I agree it is strange how he was not sent off. Bunn was last man and so was Mignolet yesterday. Odd how the decision of yellow came about.[/quote]

The problem here is the fact that the ''deliberate backpass'' only carries a yellow card as a punishment.

I''m sure PDC would have been furious had he let it in to avoid a card!

[/quote]Not true. A deliberate backpass is not a bookable offence in the laws of the game. He should have not even been booked. The ref got it wrong.

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On reviewing this you are actually right, it should not have been a card, just an indirect free-kick. But I guess the punishment is to stop people doing it all the time.

Another question to add to Wazzy''s though. What happens if two of our players are injured and we win a freekick. Must both leave the field?

Because I''ve never seen this happen, the ref always allows them to receive treatment before continuing - so why is it different with one? Yes, I know it''s supposed to help the flow of the game, but it''s also a disadvantage!

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According to the rules AJ, no player is allowed to receive treatment on the field of play (and is not allowed to re-enter the field of play without the ref''s permission) except for in these circumstances:

*a goalkeeper is injured

*a goalkeeper and outfield player have collided and needed immediate attention

*players from the same team have collided and need immediate attention

*a severe injury has occurred

That''s from FIFA''s laws of the game, p.72

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/81/42/36/lawsofthegame%5f2012%5fe.pdf

And the Mignolet yellow; I suppose that because a yellow can be given for unsporting behaviour the ref may have felt it appropriate. If the keeper "accidentally" picked up a back pass without realising, or from a mad blip, then it wouldn''t need to have any sanction. But if it''s deliberately trying to gain an advantage in an unsporting manner, t could be a yellow. A goalkeeper can''t be sent off for handling in his own box, even from a passback, and you can only be sent off for ''denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity'' if the foul would be punishable by a direct freekick or penalty. So you can''t be red carded for giving away an indirect freekick or if you''re a keeper handling in the box. So either no yellow, or a yellow for unsporting behaviour I suppose. (The info on yellow and red cards is on p.39 of the rules of the game.)

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[quote user="AJ"]On reviewing this you are actually right, it should not have been a card, just an indirect free-kick. But I guess the punishment is to stop people doing it all the time.

Another question to add to Wazzy''s though. What happens if two of our players are injured and we win a freekick. Must both leave the field?

Because I''ve never seen this happen, the ref always allows them to receive treatment before continuing - so why is it different with one? Yes, I know it''s supposed to help the flow of the game, but it''s also a disadvantage![/quote]i have already posted of an incident of this involving Malky and Flem both having to go off while we defended a corner in an earlier post. you must have skimmed past it.

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[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="First Wazzock"]

[quote user="flecky76"]I agree, the Sunderland keeper yesterday should have been red carded. He denied a clear goalscoring opportunity, one that was going in, by foul means. He was also the last man so I agree it is strange how he was not sent off. Bunn was last man and so was Mignolet yesterday. Odd how the decision of yellow came about.[/quote]

The problem here is the fact that the ''deliberate backpass'' only carries a yellow card as a punishment.

I''m sure PDC would have been furious had he let it in to avoid a card!

[/quote]

Not true. A deliberate backpass is not a bookable offence in the laws of the game. He should have not even been booked. The ref got it wrong.
[/quote]

Sorry, you are correct - I was doing 8 things when I posted and making a right mess of all of them!

The pass back itself doen''t warrant a yellow card, but picking the ball up could be described as unsporting behaviour and therefore get a yellow. I didn''t explain what I meant very well!

 

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[quote user="Branston Pickle"]We shouldn''t complain too much, can''t remember who it was against but didnt Bunn do similar (tipped one over) earlier in the season?[/quote]

Garrido''s wayward backpass v. ?????

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Sorry starmanic, I must have missed your post.

It is an odd one though, I think there''s so many things some ref''s do, and others don''t. It would be interesting for regular viewers of other countries football leagues (such as Spain or Germany) to compare their standard of officiating to ours. For the "best league in the world", sometimes the standard in this league leaves a lot to be desired!

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