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Bill

Are we being 'over coached' ?

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From what I gather Snoddy was talking today about playing how the manager wants and the suggestion is this is not the normal run of the mill tactics stuff, but a more rigid formation approach.

 

Holt has been woeful at times and certainly a shadow (not literally, I''m afraid) of his previous form. The debate seems to be one of why not that he is or is not. Holt has always struck me as having the knack for getting in the right place at the right time - now it looks like he is saying to himself "should I be here, should I be doing this ?"

 

Too many times players seem to be out of sync with each other. Marking is often way off the mark, likewise passes that also go way off the mark when it looks like a complete misunderstanding between players.

 

Previously under Lambert it seemed all about motivating the players and let them work it out on the pitch, and not being afraid to change it round quite a bit when it was needed. The only change we have had recently was when Kamara came on and appeared to have a (more) free hand and the rest of the team seem to think "well fu ck this, if he can do it so can we ", all hell for leather followed and two goals also followed.

 

Yep, touch the forelock and wheeze over the line in 17th place ... then what ?

 

It all starts again in August, something needs to change or whatever players who come in will simply be obliged to play this rigid formation that grinds out 0-0 draws, which will give us 38 points, assuming we don''t get stuffed by Man Utd, Liverpool, Fulham etc

 

 

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The lack of movement, options when we have the ball is our biggest issue. This is a direct result of hughton''s influence, he is beginning to show more positive signs, in selection, as a manager, hopefully this will filter through to the players, though it may be a slow process.

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[quote user="First Wazzock"][quote user="City1st"]

which will give us 38 points,

[/quote]

We wont get that next season playing like we are right now.

[/quote]Ridiculous.Why would it get us that this year but not next?

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Ridiculous.

Why would it get us that this year but not next?



Because we had a 10 game unbeaten run. How we managed that, based on how we are playing right now I just don''t know.

If we play like we are now, next season we''ll go down.

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Has someone accessed your computer or have you had a road to Damascus, burning bush, epiphany realisation?

I have been trying to tell you, Hughton is a ''coach.''

Coaching and Managing are distinct and separate skills. Coaches have different relationships with the players to managers who need to be more remote as senior managers are in the ''outside world.''

Some coaches over coach. Hoddle did, Roeder certainly did and Hughton is the same. They can over-elaborate and coinfuse players and I believe this is what is happening at Norwich.

The players were arguing amongst themselves today.

When Pilkington was injured Hughton had no idea who to bring on. Pilks was struggling for some time and Wes was not ready and was still getting dressed after entering onto the pitch. In the end he just put Wes wide left having obviously learned nothing from his last outing in that position.

Today was awful but it has been utter rot for months. I love Norwich and want them to stay up passionately but I only go to games at present because I have paid for them. I am not renewing my ST which gives someone else a chance. That is my decision. I don''t like the way my club is being run, the relationship with supporters, the inflation proof attitude of the EPL and the people who comprise it and the entertainment is overblown and very limited.

It isn''t about money for me but so many people who would love to go are excluded from what used to be inexpensive public entertainment and I find that offensive.

Some of this would be negated by thrill and enjoyment but there is virtually none. The crowd are quiet because there is nothing to enthrall them.

I think there will be ample casual tickets available next season anyway because I don''t believe I am the only person who feels like this.

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oh dear

 

perhaps it is all the distress which has let you to make up things (as with your opening line)

 

or perhaps even better you could point us all to the exact remarks that I made elsewhere, with regard to Chris Hughton being a manager/coach etc

 

 

 

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Pains me to say that I largely agree with your post city first. However, am confident things won''t be the same next season the man has an eye for a good signing, defence won''t be his priority this summer. He is coaching the team so we stay in the league IMO

I am enjoying being a Norwich fan this season, I expect to cheer a lot more next!

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[quote user="xymox"]I am enjoying being a Norwich fan this season, I expect to cheer a lot more next![/quote]

Did you enjoy that today, because where I sat most people were booing at the final whistle?

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Only in England would fans complain about ''over coaching''. Spain, Germany, Italy etc. would put bad play and results down to a lack of coaching on the part of the staff. The English on the other hand...
Don''t think, don''t control. Kick the ball, chase the ball and get stuck in.
Christ.

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Dearie me. What corner of Suffolk did this poster crawl out of?

"From what I gather Snoddy was talking today about playing how the manager wants and the suggestion is this is not the normal run of the mill tactics stuff, but a more rigid formation approach."

Please state where it says he said this.

"Holt has been woeful at times and certainly a shadow (not literally, I''m afraid) of his previous form. The debate seems to be one of why not that he is or is not. Holt has always struck me as having the knack for getting in the right place at the right time - now it looks like he is saying to himself "should I be here, should I be doing this ?"

More anti-Norwich drivel. If you are going to call City players woeful and make allusions to them being fat, I suggest you just come clean and nail your blue colours to the flagpole.

"It all starts again in August, something needs to change or whatever players who come in will simply be obliged to play this rigid formation that grinds out 0-0 draws, which will give us 38 points, assuming we don''t get stuffed by Man Utd, Liverpool, Fulham etc"

What are you saying needs to change? This is the team that has beaten Man Utd, Arsenal, and Spurs this season and enjoyed a ten match unbeaten run. With 9 games left we should be looking at 10th place and next year pushing for a top 6 finish. Get off your knees.

By their words you shall know them.

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This is something I made that you may or may not want to check out, city1st. (and others)

http://hals.forumotion.co.uk/

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The reality of being in the Premier League is :-We are in a league full of quality teams. Many of these teams have far greater resources than NCFC.No match can be looked at as an easy 3 points.Every season is going to be a challenge to stay safe.Facing reality is often an uncomfortable experience and it seems to me that many posters on this forum would be much happier winning a few more games in a Championship promotion push than being small fish in a much bigger pond.

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Ricardo I have to disagree. We are not in a league full of quality teams, even if Hughton says so. As the "great" Roy Keane said on TV last week the standards in PL have dropped this year. I agree.

Basically the PL is there as a springboard for half a dozen teams to fight there way in to Europe. Presumably this brings in a lot more income for their image and branding rights. The remainder of the Clubs will for the forseeable future just make up the numbers and a fixture list. Fully accept there will still be many outstanding entertaining games in a season but many matches are incredibly boring partly because they think they have to play the Barcelona way i.e. keep possession at all costs but never look like scoring.

So your final sentence raises the issue on many Canary Fans lips. Is it better to play in the PL and be one of fifteen teams or so to continue to battle every season to stay in the promised land of hype, Sky and sackfuls of TV money which does not improve the game but simply end up in the hands of grossly overpaid footballers, agents and some spiv owners OR play in an more equal and even league whereby you start off with a chance of having a very exciting season and being ENTERTAINED. I realise that  any ex-footballers are not the brightest sparks but I could not believe my ears the other week when Paul McVeigh said on Canary Call, football is not about entertainment but is just  like any other business whose prime objective is to make money. Can you imagine Norfolk folk paying the Theatre Royal £80 million a year and not be entertained!!!.

Yes I am a bit grumpy after seeing yet another dreadful home performance yesterday.

 

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[quote user="vos"]

Ricardo I have to disagree. We are not in a league full of quality teams, even if Hughton says so. As the "great" Roy Keane said on TV last week the standards in PL have dropped this year. I agree.

Basically the PL is there as a springboard for half a dozen teams to fight there way in to Europe. Presumably this brings in a lot more income for their image and branding rights. The remainder of the Clubs will for the forseeable future just make up the numbers and a fixture list. Fully accept there will still be many outstanding entertaining games in a season but many matches are incredibly boring partly because they think they have to play the Barcelona way i.e. keep possession at all costs but never look like scoring.

So your final sentence raises the issue on many Canary Fans lips. Is it better to play in the PL and be one of fifteen teams or so to continue to battle every season to stay in the promised land of hype, Sky and sackfuls of TV money which does not improve the game but simply end up in the hands of grossly overpaid footballers, agents and some spiv owners OR play in an more equal and even league whereby you start off with a chance of having a very exciting season and being ENTERTAINED. I realise that  any ex-footballers are not the brightest sparks but I could not believe my ears the other week when Paul McVeigh said on Canary Call, football is not about entertainment but is just  like any other business whose prime objective is to make money. Can you imagine Norfolk folk paying the Theatre Royal £80 million a year and not be entertained!!!.

Yes I am a bit grumpy after seeing yet another dreadful home performance yesterday.

 

[/quote]Fair enough, if it''s entertainment you go for then perhaps you would be better off supporting a team in a more even league.Personally I support NCFC and if it was just entertainment I was after I would probably have given up sometime in the 1960''s. I detect quite a few disgruntled posts lately with this entertainment theme running through them so it seems a certain amount of disillusionment is beginning to set in. It doesn''t surprise me because I''ve seen it many times in the past.Those who are expecting a lifetimes entertainment from following NCFC need to get in touch with reality because for every glory day there are countless days of dross and disappointment further on down the road. If you can''t live with that then CR is the wrong place for you on a Saturday afternoon.

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A always Rudolph. Spot on.

How he has managed to make some of our players go backwards amazes me.

With te exception of johnson & ruddy all he inherited ,have declined.

The likes of Howson, Martin, Bennett x2 fox Pilks holt....were good enough last year.

Totally over coached and restricted.

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[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="vos"]

Ricardo I have to disagree. We are not in a league full of quality teams, even if Hughton says so. As the "great" Roy Keane said on TV last week the standards in PL have dropped this year. I agree.

Basically the PL is there as a springboard for half a dozen teams to fight there way in to Europe. Presumably this brings in a lot more income for their image and branding rights. The remainder of the Clubs will for the forseeable future just make up the numbers and a fixture list. Fully accept there will still be many outstanding entertaining games in a season but many matches are incredibly boring partly because they think they have to play the Barcelona way i.e. keep possession at all costs but never look like scoring.

So your final sentence raises the issue on many Canary Fans lips. Is it better to play in the PL and be one of fifteen teams or so to continue to battle every season to stay in the promised land of hype, Sky and sackfuls of TV money which does not improve the game but simply end up in the hands of grossly overpaid footballers, agents and some spiv owners OR play in an more equal and even league whereby you start off with a chance of having a very exciting season and being ENTERTAINED. I realise that  any ex-footballers are not the brightest sparks but I could not believe my ears the other week when Paul McVeigh said on Canary Call, football is not about entertainment but is just  like any other business whose prime objective is to make money. Can you imagine Norfolk folk paying the Theatre Royal £80 million a year and not be entertained!!!.

Yes I am a bit grumpy after seeing yet another dreadful home performance yesterday.

 

[/quote]Fair enough, if it''s entertainment you go for then perhaps you would be better off supporting a team in a more even league.Personally I support NCFC and if it was just entertainment I was after I would probably have given up sometime in the 1960''s. I detect quite a few disgruntled posts lately with this entertainment theme running through them so it seems a certain amount of disillusionment is beginning to set in. It doesn''t surprise me because I''ve seen it many times in the past.Those who are expecting a lifetimes entertainment from following NCFC need to get in touch with reality because for every glory day there are countless days of dross and disappointment further on down the road. If you can''t live with that then CR is the wrong place for you on a Saturday afternoon.

[/quote]

If we were grinding out 1-0 wins with no entertainment fair enough.

But our passing and attacking play have declined ridiculously.

He inherited an exciting, energetic , capable squad. How a team can go from

Being voted one of the most exciting teams in the league to the most boring in a matter of months is unreal.

And no. I don''t want to support another team. It''s just that I have expectations to be beating teams like soton.

Oh and to add. This is the worst prem in yrs.

We ate extremely lucky that there are so many worse teams! Our reliance on results going our way is beyond ridiculous. All you hear when leaving CR Is "well at least results went for us!"

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Paul Lambert was from the school of thought that keeps football simple.     Get the players in the right frame of mind, man manage them to fight for each other on the pitch and get them to rely on their own ability to play football.   In other words,  put them on the pitch and let get on with it.     If  they believe in themselves enough they will do well.  And up to a point that works.

Chris Hughton is more pragmatic and structured in his approach.   It makes players think more about what they are doing - the results being a more consistent and balanced approach.   At the moment it is working as far as the defence is concerned, although Southampton should have scored at least two yesterday.   The coaching is working to the point where the team starts to move forward.    It does beg the question are the players good enough to take on what Hughton is trying to do.    He must be pleased and frustrated at the same time because on one hand we are doing good things defensively, and on the other hand we are failing miserably to take on his methods further up the pitch.   The balanced approach that he is known for has not been much in evidence in recent games.   But we can''t forget the succsessful run we had and have to presume that the standards then are more what we should expect from a Hughton team. 

Its not gone badly wrong, we''re still hard to beat and picking up points, and we have seen the coaching methods work, we just have to be patient.  Southampton were good in their closing down and crowding key players yesterday and no-one is going to make it easy for us.   I hope yesterday was the worst we are going to see, it was awful conditions and Southampton were well up for it.  And lets not forget, that 0-0 would be very handy next week too.

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can u sit down please:

"If we were grinding out 1-0 wins with no entertainment fair enough.

But our passing and attacking play have declined ridiculously.

He inherited an exciting, energetic , capable squad. How a team can go from

Being voted one of the most exciting teams in the league to the most boring in a matter of months is unreal.

And no. I don''t want to support another team. It''s just that I have expectations to be beating teams like soton.

Oh and to add. This is the worst prem in yrs.

We ate extremely lucky that there are so many worse teams! Our reliance on results going our way is beyond ridiculous. All you hear when leaving CR Is "well at least results went for us!" "

Well, that''s the biggest pile of rubbish I''ve read on here today (albeit by a small margin).

Last season we had ZERO CHOICE. We went at it hammer & tongs since the only remote chance of survival we had was to catch the opposition unawares. We had a squad which was unexceptional even by Champs standard, but had enormous team spirit & self belief. No matter what they said they thought, no other Prem side took us to be a serious threat. We surprised the crap out of them, & beat a fair few as a result.

The novelty effect was starting to wear off even before the season''s end however. Morison''s form epitomised the team.

Do you really, honestly, seriously believe that our " "exciting, energetic, capable squad" could have repeated the trick, even under Lambert?? How many would get into other squads, let alone first teams???

He could see the writing on the wall. It was one of the primary reasons for his departure.

This year''s Prem is no worse than any others.

Last year we witnessed an extraordinary bravura display of courage & determination. It was not repeatable. This is reality. Progress will be slow & difficult.

Deal with it.

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[quote user="dpit"]Dearie me. What corner of Suffolk did this poster crawl out of? "From what I gather Snoddy was talking today about playing how the manager wants and the suggestion is this is not the normal run of the mill tactics stuff, but a more rigid formation approach." Please state where it says he said this. "Holt has been woeful at times and certainly a shadow (not literally, I''m afraid) of his previous form. The debate seems to be one of why not that he is or is not. Holt has always struck me as having the knack for getting in the right place at the right time - now it looks like he is saying to himself "should I be here, should I be doing this ?" More anti-Norwich drivel. If you are going to call City players woeful and make allusions to them being fat, I suggest you just come clean and nail your blue colours to the flagpole. "It all starts again in August, something needs to change or whatever players who come in will simply be obliged to play this rigid formation that grinds out 0-0 draws, which will give us 38 points, assuming we don''t get stuffed by Man Utd, Liverpool, Fulham etc" What are you saying needs to change? This is the team that has beaten Man Utd, Arsenal, and Spurs this season and enjoyed a ten match unbeaten run. With 9 games left we should be looking at 10th place and next year pushing for a top 6 finish. Get off your knees. By their words you shall know them.[/quote]

 

Dearie, dear me someone is wetting his/her pants again,

 

this time I am from suffolk and I support the binners !

 

dearie me 

 

ps for the rest on here, Snodgrass''s remarks were on Radio Norfolk shortly before the game

 

 

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[quote user="ron obvious"]can u sit down please:

"If we were grinding out 1-0 wins with no entertainment fair enough.

But our passing and attacking play have declined ridiculously.

He inherited an exciting, energetic , capable squad. How a team can go from

Being voted one of the most exciting teams in the league to the most boring in a matter of months is unreal.

And no. I don''t want to support another team. It''s just that I have expectations to be beating teams like soton.

Oh and to add. This is the worst prem in yrs.

We ate extremely lucky that there are so many worse teams! Our reliance on results going our way is beyond ridiculous. All you hear when leaving CR Is "well at least results went for us!" "

Well, that''s the biggest pile of rubbish I''ve read on here today (albeit by a small margin).

Last season we had ZERO CHOICE. We went at it hammer & tongs since the only remote chance of survival we had was to catch the opposition unawares. We had a squad which was unexceptional even by Champs standard, but had enormous team spirit & self belief. No matter what they said they thought, no other Prem side took us to be a serious threat. We surprised the crap out of them, & beat a fair few as a result.

The novelty effect was starting to wear off even before the season''s end however. Morison''s form epitomised the team.

Do you really, honestly, seriously believe that our " "exciting, energetic, capable squad" could have repeated the trick, even under Lambert?? How many would get into other squads, let alone first teams???

He could see the writing on the wall. It was one of the primary reasons for his departure.

This year''s Prem is no worse than any others.

Last year we witnessed an extraordinary bravura display of courage & determination. It was not repeatable. This is reality. Progress will be slow & difficult.

Deal with it.[/quote]Yes, i think Lambert would have made the right additions and we would have moved on. Just like Swansea (Who lost Caulker, Sinclair and Allen. 3 of there best players.) I know for a fact that Benteke was on his list when here and funds were available. Just like they were for Hooper. The same goes for Lowton, the Villa RB. A brilliant young player.As our circumstances changed i think people want to believe that it wouldnt have worked. Imagne Turner & Bassong in our team last year? We would have been even better.People laugh at the Villa situation. We are not much better off and i wouldnt be surprised by the close of play next weekend, if the gap was down to 2 points.Villa under Lambert will finish above us next year. In the cup game, PL completely outsmarted a tactically naive Hughton and hammered us.

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Just to add, next year is Hughton''s 2nd season. If people think that he will improve us and that Lambert wouldnt have in his 2nd season they are deluded.He is a manager for steadying the ship. Not one to take a club forward. I know i''ll get flak for this but i can see why Mike Ashley took the decision to get rid of him.

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[quote user="can u sit down please"] It''s just that I have expectations to be beating teams like soton.

Oh and to add. This is the worst prem in yrs.

We ate extremely lucky that there are so many worse teams!
Our reliance on results going our way is beyond ridiculous. All you hear when leaving CR Is "well at least results went for us!"[/quote]I wish I had a quid for the number of seasons that this old chestnut is trotted out. Can you explain to us in what way the Prem is inferior to last season, or any other season come to that?As for reliance on other teams results, well that''s the nature of a league system where everybody play everybody else. No team is any more reliant on another teams results than any other. At the end of the season we''ve all played each other twice and assuming an even amount of luck with decisions and injury problems you will finish up where you deserve to be.You may well have had expectations of beating Southampton and no doubt Man City had even greater expectations of beating them when they lost 1-3 a couple of weeks back. It would be a very predictable game if every match met peoples expectations. Southampton are roughly on a par with us historically and when you look at the respective head to head there''s not a lot in it though they have the edge, P 112, 34 City wins, 42 Soton wins and 36 draws. So what''s so unusual about a 1-1 draw away and a 0-0 draw at home?I think you are just disappointed that results haven''t been that brilliant of late CUSDP. Facing the reality of your situation is often a long and painful process learnt through many years of not having your expectations met. In time you too will be able to go home after a bad result and not kick a hole in the garage door.[;)]

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cusdp:

And who exactly could we have sold to finance our new acquisitions? Swansea''s Joe Allen went for £15m, Sinclair for £6.2m, Graham £5m. And we could have got ...They made a fantastic buy in Michu.

They built up their squad over time in the Champs. You cannot compare it to ours.

Even so, we are only 7 points behind them. And we beat them away.

And Lambert at Villa? Has he improved things for them since last season? I don''t think so. So why would he have improved things here? Out of a host of signings only Benteke & Vlaar (£10m between them) could be counted successes.

This season the ship needed steadying. I think you are completely deluded if you think Lambert was more likely to do so.

We''ll find out who''s right next season.

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