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Hillsborough Report - Norwich Memories

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]The historical patterns of behaviour of Liverpool''s travelling support in the period in question would be a good place to start...[/quote]

A better place to start would be historical patterns of the authorities attempts to deal with those hooligans who were part of every clubs support.

 

 

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just heard graham beecrofts commentary of the day again on talksport he called it spot on, he said it was not a hooligan thing, something is seriously wrong, nobody is fighting anybody, Liverpool fans are laying on the pitch, sounds right to me.

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]The historical patterns of behaviour of Liverpool''s travelling support in the period in question would be a good place to start...[/quote]What makes you think that is a better place to start than the massive collection of evidence in the report?

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[quote user="Infidel Castro"][quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]1. What exactly waas going on outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end in the minutes leading upto the gates being opened?
2. What caused the crush - was it sheer weight of numbers spilling over from the turnstile queues or was it some fans trying to force their way inside ?
 [/quote]

This is covered in the report, p94-98. I''m not going to quote it all but its there if you want to read it.

[quote]It has to be said that in the football world, the scousers have had a reputation (at big games) for some of their fans trying to............''bunk in''  (their expression). Even as recently as 2007, there was a serious (yet pretty much unreported) incident at Stamford Bridge in the Champions League semi final. Then in the final at Athens it went a stage further with reports of fans stealing tickets off others with others actually forcing their way past ticket entrances. Inside the ground there was some serious incidents of fans getting crushed in concourses trying to get on to the actual viewing areas. Now, because (thankfully) no one was seriously injured or killed the papers and mainstream media did''nt run the story. Talk Sport did though and they gave it saturation coverage the next morning.[/quote]

Regardless of these other events (that you provide no evidence for), two inquiries have found no evidence of significant numbers of ticketless Liverpool fans being a contributing factor to the disasters.

[quote]Now just because ''bunking in'' happened in 2007 it sure as hell does not automatically mean that it was attempted in 1989.  Truth is we can''t be sure it didn''t happen. [/quote]


Two inquiries have found no evidence that it happened, what more do you want?


[quote]Camerons words have been twisted by scousers and others hell bent on blaming everyone other than the fans. What he actuallly said is very revealing:-  

''There was no evidence of EXCEPTIONAL levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness, arriving late'' etc. So some of this did hapen then.[/quote]


Exceptional may be the word Cameron used, but in the report it is discussed in terms of significance. That is, whether or not drunkeness, ticketlessness, and lateness were contributing factors to the disaster, no evidence was found that suggested they were. Again, what more do you want? 


[quote]My point to all this is that IF some fans were trying to force those gates down then they should take a share of the blame. Not ''all'' the blame,not ''most'' of the blame but ''part'' of the blame.  I retain an open mind on this until I can (if I ever do) research the whole report. Ijust have an uneasy feeling that as with other incidents it was all ....''their fault, nothing to do with the Liverpool fans or people''. Make no mistake this perception of the massive chip on the shoulder that scousers love to portray is widespread in the UK. If you were at the match at Carow Road late last season you will have heard what many City fans think about that"[/quote]


If your aunt had balls she''d be your uncle, I don''t see how baseless conjecture trumps a 389 page comprehensive report with quotes and sources.


[/quote]

I will ignore that last comment Infidel but, seriously, you have clearly spent a lot of time on your research which I had not (at time of writing the post). You make (and quote) very good points. I will read those pages. Thank you for directing me to them.

All I would say about 2007 is just because there was no ''enquiry'' does not automativcally mean those events were pure ''conjecture'' as you put it. Ask Talk Sport for a copy of their programmes that morning. It was rivetting lisening.  

Anyway, I''m now off to find those pages, cheers.

 

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[quote user="Yellow Rider"]

I will ignore that last comment Infidel but, seriously, you have clearly spent a lot of time on your research which I had not (at time of writing the post). You make (and quote) very good points. I will read those pages. Thank you for directing me to them.

All I would say about 2007 is just because there was no ''enquiry'' does not automativcally mean those events were pure ''conjecture'' as you put it. Ask Talk Sport for a copy of their programmes that morning. It was rivetting lisening.  

Anyway, I''m now off to find those pages, cheers[/quote]

Apologies for any offence, you are clearly not of the same ilk as Mungo and co.

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makes you wonder why so many people want standing terraces brought back. A surge forward would not result in a crush now because of the lack of fences but falling people, children and elderly could still be killed in a trample onto the pitch.

Nobody is ever going to agree on how much blame to attach to each person or organisation that contributed to that day. As someone else said it was a perfect storm with so many things going wrong at the same time but isn''t it obvious now looking back that craming 2000 people into a cage was kinda stupid, an accident just waiting to happen and in many ways the wake up call could of been so much worse, just imagine Bradford Stadium with fences and how many would of escaped in the 2 minutes it took to burn down the stand. Im very thankful that today when I go to watch football I dont have to worry about my saftey and thats party down to those 96 Liverpool supporters.

 

 

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[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]Mr Larkin, were you going to matches in the 70s/80s?[/quote]!970 onwards… you missed the part where I referred to my own experience of Villa Park on that day I can only assume. Try reading the whole thread.

And stop being such a prick![/quote]I''m just back from a nice day out and see that this thread has taken the Left v Right direction that I thought it would from the start. It''s a shame that people can''t respect the unfortunate death of 96 people in tragic circumstances without trying to make some personal political point. It is obvious that those who died were guilty of nothing more than attending a football match. The reasons why they died are extremely complex and can''t be neatly compartmentalised into 1. It was drunken Liverpool Hooligans or 2. It was "Fatcha" and the corrupt Police.Nutty''s point that she was in government at the time doesn''t wash either. Football hooliganism started in earnest in the early 70''s and smiling Big Jim and Labour were in power then and did bugger all about it. People are searching for a easy answer to what was a complex problem and inevitably they want someone to blame because it makes them feel better.Lots of small decisions that in themselves were harmless led up to this disaster. Many people did the wrong things for what they thought were the right reasons at the time. Laws were passed that treated football fans all alike because the general public were terrorised in their own town centre''s on Saturday afternoons. It made people feel safer although it tarred the innocent with the same brush as the guilty. Fans were locked in segregated pens because of the violence that occurred. Nobody expected those pens to become death traps. The police herded us like animals because sadly many of us behaved like animals. Police, Governmet, The Media, the Fans should all own up to a share of the guilt in my opinion and a witch-hunt looking for a single scapegoat is going to satisfy nobody. The best we can hope for is that enough lessons have been learned that so that no parent should ever again fear the loss of a son or daughter for merely attending a football match.

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It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="ricky knight"]just heard graham beecrofts commentary of the day again on talksport he called it spot on, he said it was not a hooligan thing, something is seriously wrong, nobody is fighting anybody, Liverpool fans are laying on the pitch, sounds right to me.[/quote]

He was reporting from inside the stadium and nobody has said there was any hooliganism inside the stadium as far as I''m aware. The pushing on the gates was outside the stadium and this was the catalyst for a naive senior officer to decide to open the gates for health and safety reasons.  

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

[/quote]

No, football fans were responsible for the prevailing attitudes against football fans.

 

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

[/quote]

No, football fans were responsible for the prevailing attitudes against football fans.

 

[/quote]

 

Pathetic response Paul Moy

You''re wrong. Football fans weren''t responsible for the prevailing attitudes against football fans. Football hooligans were. You''re as bad as Thatcher. I guess you believe that all Muslims are bombers too.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

[/quote]

No, football fans were responsible for the prevailing attitudes against football fans.

 

[/quote]

 

Pathetic response Paul Moy

You''re wrong. Football fans weren''t responsible for the prevailing attitudes against football fans. Football hooligans were. You''re as bad as Thatcher. I guess you believe that all Muslims are bombers too.

 

[/quote]

Football hooligans were football fans presumably and whether you like it not because of that we were all tarred with the same brush. You cannot blame somebody for trying to rectify the problem as you do with Thatcher. No other politician had the courage to do anything just as nobody has the real courage nowadays to truly tackle a corrupt benefits system that is bringing the economy down.

Unfortunately, the reality is that muslims have been tarred by the actions of some of their own. That is the reality and why I would not visit countries such as Pakistan or Kenya at the moment and why I refused to go anywhere near the London Olympics. Having narrowly missed two deadly bombs I do not wish to encounter the third. 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s not left v right Rickyyyy. It''s not party political. And nutty''s point has been quite clear from my first post that the blame lies with many different people including nutty and Rickyyyyyy. But the treating of all football fans as scum can be traced directly to Thatcher and her comments after past events. She cannot be directly blamed for that day''s mistakes but she is responsible for the prevailing attitudes towards football fans at that time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]Get over it. Perhaps she didn''t think you''d get so upset by her calling you names, Nutty.Seriously though Nutty, most non football people were happy to tar all football fans with the same brush in those days. In a way its hard to blame them when you remember some of the pre and post match entertainment that went on in city centres on Saturdays. After the Heysal disaster it became impossible to argue that it was just isolated incidents with small numbers involved. I didn''t much like being herded along by Police horses and dogs when we went to the 6th round  FA cup match at Brighton in 1983 but I can understand that the local people expected the Police to put their safety before our comfort.Politicians of both sides simply reacted to public''s appeals for something to be done so nothing new there. You can argue that their reaction was slow and could have taken different paths but you can''t argue that most people wanted something done quickly and that in the public''s view anything was better than nothing.

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Nigel, I''ve got a couple of tickets going spare for the local Conservative Club dinner. It''s an "Evening with Sir Norman Tebbitt".  Should I put your name down for these?

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I remember watching the news that night, strangely I seem to recall, some groups of very angry Liverpool supporters interviewed on the pitch.

The disaster was still in progress but they were waving their tickets at the camera. If I remember correctly they were blaming fellow [ticketless] Liverpool supporters for the disaster.

Emotions were obviously running high that day, so I guess they were just delirious and making false accusations to pervert the course of justice.

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[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]just heard graham beecrofts commentary of the day again on talksport he called it spot on, he said it was not a hooligan thing, something is seriously wrong, nobody is fighting anybody, Liverpool fans are laying on the pitch, sounds right to me.[/quote]

He was reporting from inside the stadium and nobody has said there was any hooliganism inside the stadium as far as I''m aware. The pushing on the gates was outside the stadium and this was the catalyst for a naive senior officer to decide to open the gates for health and safety reasons.  

[/quote]

you miss my point paul the police said there was fighting on the pitch and advised ambulance men to stay out the ground this was said by only ambulance man who took no notice and the first one on the scene

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[quote user="ricky knight"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]just heard graham beecrofts commentary of the day again on talksport he called it spot on, he said it was not a hooligan thing, something is seriously wrong, nobody is fighting anybody, Liverpool fans are laying on the pitch, sounds right to me.[/quote]

He was reporting from inside the stadium and nobody has said there was any hooliganism inside the stadium as far as I''m aware. The pushing on the gates was outside the stadium and this was the catalyst for a naive senior officer to decide to open the gates for health and safety reasons.  

[/quote] you miss my point paul the police said there was fighting on the pitch and advised ambulance men to stay out the ground this was said by only ambulance man who took no notice and the first one on the scene[/quote]

Well, that sounds like poor communication to me, which perhaps is understandable in all the ensuing chaos. That poor ambulanceman though who ignored the advice of a policeman is now being blamed alongside his other colleagues of responsibility for ''killing'' Liverpool supporters. That has to be wrong, surely. It was a tragic accident, not murder or manslaughter that the Liverpool fans and their families are apparently clamouring for.

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And the chairman of the Hillsborough "Independent" Panel was... The Right Reverend James Jones. The Bishop of Liverpool.  So that would guarantee an objective view wouldn''t it!

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Ricardo - just on a point of accuracy: you said,

"Football hooliganism started in earnest in the early 70''s and smiling Big Jim and Labour were in power then and did bugger all about it."

Edward Heath and the Conservative Party were in power in the early 1970s. Jim Callaghan did not become PM until 1976, although the Labour party regained office (if not power) in the two elections of 1974.

Obviously I agree passionately with your final point, as I am sure that we all do.

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"And the chairman of the Hillsborough "Independent" Panel was... The Right Reverend James Jones. The Bishop of Liverpool. So that would guarantee an objective view wouldn''t it!"

Please tell me you just made that bit up Mungo.

It wouldn''t have been more one sided if they''d had Kenny Dalglish as Chairman!

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Sadly not, Billabong. Check out the BBC news site under "reactions to Hillsborough files". You couldn''t make it up, could you!

Panel chairman, the Bishop of Liverpool, the Right Reverend James Jones: "The documents disclosed to and analysed by the panel show that the tragedy should never have happened. There were clear operational failures in response to the disaster and in its aftermath their were strenuous attempts to deflect the blame on to the fans. The panel''s detailed report shows how vulnerable victims, survivors and their families are when transparency and accountability are compromised. My colleagues and I were from the start of our work impressed by the dignified determination of the families."

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[quote user=" Badger"]Ricardo - just on a point of accuracy: you said, "Football hooliganism started in earnest in the early 70''s and smiling Big Jim and Labour were in power then and did bugger all about it." Edward Heath and the Conservative Party were in power in the early 1970s. Jim Callaghan did not become PM until 1976, although the Labour party regained office (if not power) in the two elections of 1974. Obviously I agree passionately with your final point, as I am sure that we all do.[/quote]

The point he was making though is that if you want a party to make tough decisions that may upset many people don''t expect Labour to do it because they never have. Thatcher tackled the unions, miners, hooligans, the Argies etc and did inevitably upset a lot of people, even those in her own party but with good reason. We could do with her ilk now instead of the ''wet'' Cameron.

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[quote user="Billabong"]"And the chairman of the Hillsborough "Independent" Panel was... The Right Reverend James Jones. The Bishop of Liverpool. So that would guarantee an objective view wouldn''t it!"

Please tell me you just made that bit up Mungo.

It wouldn''t have been more one sided if they''d had Kenny Dalglish as Chairman![/quote]

The remit of the independent panel will be to:

  • oversee full public disclosure of relevant government

    and local information within the limited constraints set out in the

    accompanying protocol;
  • consult with the Hillsborough families to ensure that the views of those most affected by the tragedy are taken into account;
  • manage the process of public disclosure, ensuring that

    it takes place initially to the Hillsborough families and other involved

    parties, in an agreed manner and within a reasonable timescale, before

    information is made more widely available;
  • in line with established practice, work with the Keeper

    of Public Records in preparing options for establishing an archive of

    Hillsborough documentation, including a catalogue of all central

    Governmental and local public agency information and a commentary on any

    information withheld for the benefit of the families or on legal or

    other grounds;
  • produce a report explaining the work of the panel. The

    panel''s report will also illustrate how the information disclosed adds

    to public understanding of the tragedy and its aftermath.

Please explain how things would''ve been different if Kenny Dalglish or even Bobo the Clown been on the committee?

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]

Sadly not, Billabong. Check out the BBC news site under "reactions to Hillsborough files". You couldn''t make it up, could you!

Panel chairman, the Bishop of Liverpool, the Right Reverend James Jones: "The documents disclosed to and analysed by the panel show that the tragedy should never have happened. There were clear operational failures in response to the disaster and in its aftermath their were strenuous attempts to deflect the blame on to the fans. The panel''s detailed report shows how vulnerable victims, survivors and their families are when transparency and accountability are compromised. My colleagues and I were from the start of our work impressed by the dignified determination of the families."

[/quote]

In fact there were at least three Merseysiders on the panel. How can that be independent !!!!!! 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/09/12/who-are-the-members-of-the-hillsborough-independent-panel-100252-31815017/

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Please explain how things would''ve been different if Kenny Dalglish or even Bobo the Clown been on the committee?

No, thinking about it, you are right, If Bobo the Clown had been Chairman, I''m sure they would have come to a similar conclusion

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]

Sadly not, Billabong. Check out the BBC news site under "reactions to Hillsborough files". You couldn''t make it up, could you!

Panel chairman, the Bishop of Liverpool, the Right Reverend James Jones: "The documents disclosed to and analysed by the panel show that the tragedy should never have happened. There were clear operational failures in response to the disaster and in its aftermath their were strenuous attempts to deflect the blame on to the fans. The panel''s detailed report shows how vulnerable victims, survivors and their families are when transparency and accountability are compromised. My colleagues and I were from the start of our work impressed by the dignified determination of the families."

[/quote]

In fact there were at least three Merseysiders on the panel. How can that be independent !!!!!! 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/09/12/who-are-the-members-of-the-hillsborough-independent-panel-100252-31815017/

[/quote]

The other two are:

Professor Phil Scraton, from Merseyside, a former lecturer at Edge Hill University, near Ormskirk, is Professor of Criminology in the School of Law, Queen’s University, Belfast and Director of the Childhood, Transition and Social Justice Initiative. He has held recent scholarships at Monash University, Melbourne and Sydney University’s Law School. His primary research includes controversial deaths and institutional responsibility, and the rights of the bereaved and survivors in the aftermath of disasters.

Peter Sissons is a born and bred Liverpudlian who retired in the summer of 2009 after nearly 45 years with ITN and the BBC. He attended the Liverpool Institute before going to University College Oxford where he studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics. He was the first presenter of Channel Four News in 1982.

He left the station to join the BBC in 1989, succeeding Sir Robin Day as chairman of Question Time.

He is a holder of one of the highest awards of the Royal Television Society, the Judges’ Award, an Honorary Fellow of Liverpool John Moores University and an Honorary Doctor of Laws of the University of Liverpool.



 

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[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="ricky knight"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]just heard graham beecrofts commentary of the day again on talksport he called it spot on, he said it was not a hooligan thing, something is seriously wrong, nobody is fighting anybody, Liverpool fans are laying on the pitch, sounds right to me.[/quote]

He was reporting from inside the stadium and nobody has said there was any hooliganism inside the stadium as far as I''m aware. The pushing on the gates was outside the stadium and this was the catalyst for a naive senior officer to decide to open the gates for health and safety reasons.  

[/quote] you miss my point paul the police said there was fighting on the pitch and advised ambulance men to stay out the ground this was said by only ambulance man who took no notice and the first one on the scene[/quote]

Well, that sounds like poor communication to me, which perhaps is understandable in all the ensuing chaos. That poor ambulanceman though who ignored the advice of a policeman is now being blamed alongside his other colleagues of responsibility for ''killing'' Liverpool supporters. That has to be wrong, surely. It was a tragic accident, not murder or manslaughter that the Liverpool fans and their families are apparently clamouring for.

[/quote]

give up mate lost all respect for you so cant be bothered.

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It makes a mockery of the whole purpose of an independent report - [3 Liverpudlians on the committee]

Especially as the Chairman would have been in close contact with the bereaved and the Merseyside community.

Imagine if they had 3 Police officers from Sheffield on the committee!

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