Hillsborough Report - Norwich Memories

[Google Bot 3,274]

The blame, if necessary, falls on both parties.

Does anyone really believe the police would just open the gates if there was a few supporters milling around outside? Of course not... The supporters would''ve been like animals trying to get into the ground and they couldn''t be contained. I can''t think why else the gates were opened? ....For a laugh? I think not!

At that point, i can''t see how the fans are innocent.

After that, it''s just a horrific mess, the police/services were out of their depth and instead of coming clean, backtracked and lied in an attempt to clear their backs. Which is unforgivable, and charges should be made on those covering up.

Trouble is, it''s now blown up in the laps of a more modern society, who can''t really emphasise with how things were at that time.

As a result, the entire Liverpool supporters at the time have been painted whiter than white. And it''s really not a fair reflection. There were some proper hooligans there that day, just like there was at most matches each week.

I think as the government and services have now come clean it would be a good time for Liverpool supporters to come clean and explain what happened that day, which put the strain on security, causing their control to break, putting fellow supporters lives at risk.

The Justice campaign should now take that stance if you ask me, asking for a supporters amnesty. Otherwise they''re not being honest to themselves, and certainly aren''t serving up the full justice for their loved ones that passed away.

Otherwise, We now have a potentially serious situation where modern police will be hung out to dry for something that they had no involvement in.

I can see relationships between the police and Liverpudlians hitting an all time low.. Every club, pub & bar that has a police presence in the area will be very tense i imagine. They will be open to abuse and any kind of reaction will be put under unfair scrutiny.

[dpit 1]

I think Nutty is correct, it is difficult to pin the blame for the tragedy squarely on one group or individuals...no-one wanted 96 people to die on that day, a coming together of a myriad of factors (including incompetence in various forms) all within the context of where football was and was perceived to be at that time led to the terrible events. What upsets me most is the desperate struggle to deflect blame that ensued. Again, we must all take some responsibility in relation to this, for creating a society and a culture where cover ups and back covering are endemic..we need to have a long hard look at ourselves, I believe that this type of reaction to ''negative'' events in all sorts of areas, is more commonplace than many realise.

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

The large surge of fans to get in was in part due to delays caused by travelling fans caught up in an accident. The job of the police was to control the fans. A delay in the kick off time and the fans informed of this would have lessened the urge to get in and thus gate c would not have been opened.

H

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

If you want to change society then it has to start somewhere. We could do something different with the legacy of Hillsborough but i suspect it will go down the route of failed prosecution with yet no closure.

Surely it is better for those deemed to have made errors, some of them crass and cruel and even criminal o face up to what they have done in front of the victims families.

Then there would be real closure.

H

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

Was at Villa Park (Holte End) and Upton Park in the previous round. As already mentioned, the sheer volume of people crammed to the terrace at the latter was incredible. Feet didn''t touch the floor as you were carried by the swell up and down the steps. A significant contributory factor was the number of inflatable canaries present.

[Proper Charlie 0]

I too was at Upton park and Villa Park, I remember being right at the front at Villa park, so much so that I had my picture taken by a photographer as I had my face painted, donning a flag around the shoulders etc.

 

I have vague memories of it being murmured around the stands that there was a problem at Hillsborough but obvioulsy we didn''t know too what extent.

 

I always used to try and get near the front of all standing grounds, usually near a barrier aswell. You never think about potential consequences until something dreadful like this happens.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]After it was yesterday revealed that the Taylor report''s recommendations to change to all seater stadiums were based on lies and corruption, I wonder if this now further supports the argument to bring back terracing?[/quote]

Regardless of how they were arrived at, all-seater stadia have been the cause of a great reduction of hooliganism and have led to far more women and children attending matches in safer and modern surroundings. The Liverpool supporters still have to share some of the guilt of Hillsborough regardless of what the police did. Only the politically correct lefties will continue to spout that the authorities were soley to blame.  

 

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]After it was yesterday revealed that the Taylor report''s recommendations to change to all seater stadiums were based on lies and corruption, I wonder if this now further supports the argument to bring back terracing?[/quote]

Regardless of how they were arrived at, all-seater stadia have been the cause of a great reduction of hooliganism and have led to far more women and children attending matches in safer and modern surroundings.

 

The Liverpool supporters still have to share some of the guilt of Hillsborough regardless of what the police did.

 

Only the politically correct lefties will continue to spout that the authorities were soley to blame.  

 

[/quote]

 

Absolutely. Well, plus the spoutings of a Conservative prime minister and a nine-person independent panel, described by the Daily Telegraph as "distinguished" and chaired by that well-known Trotskyist, the Bishop of Liverpool.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]After it was yesterday revealed that the Taylor report''s recommendations to change to all seater stadiums were based on lies and corruption, I wonder if this now further supports the argument to bring back terracing?[/quote]

Regardless of how they were arrived at, all-seater stadia have been the cause of a great reduction of hooliganism and have led to far more women and children attending matches in safer and modern surroundings.

 

The Liverpool supporters still have to share some of the guilt of Hillsborough regardless of what the police did.

 

Only the politically correct lefties will continue to spout that the authorities were soley to blame.  

 

[/quote]

 

Absolutely. Well, plus the spoutings of a Conservative prime minister and a nine-person independent panel, described by the Daily Telegraph as "distinguished" and chaired by that well-known Trotskyist, the Bishop of Liverpool.

[/quote]

Indeed.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]After it was yesterday revealed that the Taylor report''s recommendations to change to all seater stadiums were based on lies and corruption, I wonder if this now further supports the argument to bring back terracing?[/quote]

Regardless of how they were arrived at, all-seater stadia have been the cause of a great reduction of hooliganism and have led to far more women and children attending matches in safer and modern surroundings.

 

The Liverpool supporters still have to share some of the guilt of Hillsborough regardless of what the police did.

 

Only the politically correct lefties will continue to spout that the authorities were soley to blame.  

 

[/quote]

 

Absolutely. Well, plus the spoutings of a Conservative prime minister and a nine-person independent panel, described by the Daily Telegraph as "distinguished" and chaired by that well-known Trotskyist, the Bishop of Liverpool.

[/quote]

Indeed.

[/quote]

 

Ah. I see. In that case, Paul, pretty nothing about modern Britain is going to please you. Now or in the future. But she is still alive, you know. Perhaps the Tory party should copy the legend of El Cid, who supposedly led his troops into battle and to victory while already dead or dying.

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

Perhaps we should bring Heysel into the debate? Blameless Liverpool fans there?

Mungo

[CambridgeCanary 0]

The revelations prove the universal truth that runs through Watergate, Bloody Sunday,Phone Hacking and so many other scandals.

 

The coverup is always worse than the original crime.  In every caase had there not been a coverup, things could have been managed better.

 

Hillsborough was nothing to do with Thatcher.  When she was told of police deceit she did nothing and became part of the coverup.  She demeaned herself and became as shabby and corrupt as everyone else involved.

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]

Perhaps we should bring Heysel into the debate? Blameless Liverpool fans there?

Mungo

[/quote]Seriously, is that your thinking on the subject?Why can you not accept that 96 innocent people died as a result of many failings on that day in 1989 that had feck all to do with Heysel and feck all to do with hooliganism?Why don''t you get your own banner made up to parade in front of them when they play at Carrow Road, I''m sure they would like to discuss it with you.Honestly, the stupidity of some people still amazes me.

[dpit 1]

This is not a left vs right issue. The culture of back covering cuts across not only political boundaries but also many areas of society.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]After it was yesterday revealed that the Taylor report''s recommendations to change to all seater stadiums were based on lies and corruption, I wonder if this now further supports the argument to bring back terracing?[/quote]

Regardless of how they were arrived at, all-seater stadia have been the cause of a great reduction of hooliganism and have led to far more women and children attending matches in safer and modern surroundings.

 

The Liverpool supporters still have to share some of the guilt of Hillsborough regardless of what the police did.

 

Only the politically correct lefties will continue to spout that the authorities were soley to blame.  

 

[/quote]

 

Absolutely. Well, plus the spoutings of a Conservative prime minister and a nine-person independent panel, described by the Daily Telegraph as "distinguished" and chaired by that well-known Trotskyist, the Bishop of Liverpool.

[/quote]

Indeed.

[/quote]

 

Ah. I see. In that case, Paul, pretty nothing about modern Britain is going to please you. Now or in the future. But she is still alive, you know. Perhaps the Tory party should copy the legend of El Cid, who supposedly led his troops into battle and to victory while already dead or dying.

[/quote]

I don''t see why I should be pleased. Just by stating that Cameron is a Conservative does not make him anything other than a left-wing politically- correct Tory to me. The sooner he goes the better IMO.

[norfolkchance1 0]

Hillsborough and that Leppings Lane end in particular has always had an eerie feeling about it since the tragedy. If I was Sheffield W or Sheffield City council I''d want to rebuild that end of the ground (if not the whole ground) and make it look less similar to how it did then in aesthetics from the outside. It shouldn''t and never will be forgotten what happened there and the memorial should always be there (if not made bigger and conveying a permanent apology - after yesterday)

Hillsborough has looked tired for too long and needed a day like yesterday where the truth really came out.

When we played Liverpool at Anfield last season I couldn''t get near the memorial as it was around the time when the JFT96 was getting the wish of all the papers being released. So when we played Everton I made the short journey to Anfield and stood and read the names next to the flame that burns continually when it was quieter - it was a very humbling experience.

[pete 318]

My memory of Villa Park that day was getting in around 2.30 with Holte End rammed with City supporters moved to the back to find some space I could only get on the edge of the narrow terracing.  I was scared that if there was a surge because of the narrow terracing and the size of the Holye End there would be a disaster, can''t help but wonder what would have happened if City had scored.

 

As it happened they didn''t but the disaster still happened.  The terracing in the Leppings Lane End were not as frightening as those at Villa if they were would probably been even worse. 

[CambridgeCanary 0]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]After it was yesterday revealed that the Taylor report''s recommendations to change to all seater stadiums were based on lies and corruption, I wonder if this now further supports the argument to bring back terracing?[/quote]

Regardless of how they were arrived at, all-seater stadia have been the cause of a great reduction of hooliganism and have led to far more women and children attending matches in safer and modern surroundings.

 

The Liverpool supporters still have to share some of the guilt of Hillsborough regardless of what the police did.

 

Only the politically correct lefties will continue to spout that the authorities were soley to blame.  

 

[/quote]

 

Absolutely. Well, plus the spoutings of a Conservative prime minister and a nine-person independent panel, described by the Daily Telegraph as "distinguished" and chaired by that well-known Trotskyist, the Bishop of Liverpool.

[/quote]

Indeed.

[/quote]

 

Ah. I see. In that case, Paul, pretty nothing about modern Britain is going to please you. Now or in the future. But she is still alive, you know. Perhaps the Tory party should copy the legend of El Cid, who supposedly led his troops into battle and to victory while already dead or dying.

[/quote]

I don''t see why I should be pleased. Just by stating that Cameron is a Conservative does not make him anything other than a left-wing politically- correct Tory to me. The sooner he goes the better IMO.

[/quote]

So it''s not just in the world of football that you hold extraordinary and odious opinions then.  Thanks for clearing that up.   I shudder to think what kind of an education systm or life experience can produce attitudes like this but frankly I don''t want to know.   Rest assured though that I will not be crossing your path again on here or any where else.  I''ll leave you to grieve the sad failure of Oswald Mosely on your own.

[Koreacanary 0]

Whats the name of that law that says all internet arguments will arrive at Hitler and the Nazis.. We''re getting very close!

[GenerationA47 751]

Hogesar''s (or Whittle''s) Law, I believe

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

Anyone who went to Anfield or Goodison in the 80s ("Mind yer car, mister") or met charming, loveable scouse fans on their visits to the Fine City may not buy a complete lack of culpability. Those who''ve only experienced happy-clappy all seater footy are, perhaps, lacking insight.

Mungo

[hogesar 9,657]

[quote user="GenerationA47"]Hogesar''s (or Whittle''s) Law, I believe[/quote]

 

Errm, excuse me? Am i missing something?!

I wasn''t born till ''92 so obviously wasn''t around to experience the reality of this dreadful occasion. However, the concensus from most people that i''ve discussed it with has always been pointing the blame, at least partly, at the Liverpool fans. As has been said, they already had a bad reputation previous to this, throw enough mud and it will stick, especially in this case.

To see this come to light, and people still defending the police that day, the management and god knows what else is beyond believable. Hopefully the families of the 96 can at least take something from these reports.

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

GenerationA47

Have a little read up on what happened at the Heysel Stadium. Whatever the actions of the police, government, anyone else who is part of the great conspiracy, you can''t get away from the fact that a very large number of well-oiled ticketless Liverpool "fans" turned up to an all ticket football match. That could have in no way whatsoever have contributed to the days terrible events?

Mungo

[Indy 3,297]

It was one of those days that stick in your mind forever and given the friendship between Norwich and Liverpool fans through the 80''s it was a hard day for all!

I was at the Everton game at Villa (It was a real hole), a day before my birthday and in a celebration mood. I remember getting in fairly early and even then it was getting quiet full.

Our game had kicked off when small murmerings were coming through the crowds about trouble at the other game, slowly the severity of that day was unfolding. In my mind I remember  the ball bouncing off the bar and Nevin tapping it in!

The second half was just being played out as I recall, I think the players must have been told at half time.

I recall the long car journey home not caring about losing, for the first time since supporting the club did really not care we had lost! the radio on listening and trying to picture the events at Hillsborough, not until the next day and the tele / papers did we really understand the horror!

The thing is, this really was down to a set of circumstances aligning themselves to cause a terible event! I have to say I was pleased that it was a merseyside final and I also thought the FA Cup final did all Liverpudlians justice too!

I glad to see sense has finally been seen and now the families can start the process towards closure.

Sad, sad day and still feels like yesterday.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Of course the authorities are responsible. The FA are probably just as responsible as the police. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Nobody denies that at at time there was a hooligan problem. But the way that problem had been dealt with, or failed to be dealt with, had a great bearing on the tragedy.

 

To suggest Thatcher does not take the ultimate responsibility would be to suggest Churchill wasn''t a war hero. As Duncan said to me last night, all football fans being treated like hooligans is the same as saying every German is a Nazi or every Muslim is a bomber. But there was no outcry and we all have to bear some responsibility for allowing it to happen. But Thatcher is ultimately responsible for failing the people who voted for her.

 

 

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]you can''t get away from the fact that a very large number of well-oiled ticketless Liverpool "fans" turned up to an all ticket football match. That could have in no way whatsoever have contributed to the days terrible events?

Mungo

[/quote]You can get away from that fact, because it didn''t happen. [url]www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf[/url] Here is a link to the report from the Hillsborough Indepedent Panel. I don''t expect you, or Moy, or any of the other nobheads perpetuating these lies to actually read it, because for people like you, no amount of evidence will ever change your mind, but maybe some lurkers who might believe your bollocks will.Its a long report so if anyone doesn''t have time to read it all, here are some quotes from relevant parts:[quote]Lord Justice Taylor noted that some officers had ‘described a high proportion’ of Liverpool fans ‘as drunk, as “lager-louts” or even as “animals”’ while others noted an ‘unco-operative minority who had drunk too much’.He ‘was satisfied on the evidence, however, that the great majority were not drunk or even the worse for drink’. It was his view that ‘some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, over-estimated the drunken element in the crowd’.Further, Lord Justice Taylor found no evidence to demonstrate that there was a ‘very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up’. He also dismissed the ‘slender evidence’ on which the ‘suggestion that fans without tickets conspired to arrive late and create such trouble as would force the police to admit them to the match’ was based.[/quote][quote]Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor’s findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.[/quote][quote]Documentary evidence considered in Chapter 2 does not confirm a significant number of ticketless fans, and CI Bettison responded to the meetings that ‘Inspector King of Scotland Yard was asked to find out whether there was a conspiratorial effort – he could not find any direct evidence that Liverpool supporters held this conspiratorial view, apart from three isolated statements … in the pub’. Nor is there any evidence in the disclosed documents to confirm that there was a surge of badly behaved late arrivals, with or without tickets.[/quote]

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Of course the authorities are responsible. The FA are probably just as responsible as the police. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Nobody denies that at at time there was a hooligan problem. But the way that problem had been dealt with, or failed to be dealt with, had a great bearing on the tragedy.

 

To suggest Thatcher does not take the ultimate responsibility would be to suggest Churchill wasn''t a war hero. As Duncan said to me last night, all football fans being treated like hooligans is the same as saying every German is a Nazi or every Muslim is a bomber. But there was no outcry and we all have to bear some responsibility for allowing it to happen. But Thatcher is ultimately responsible for failing the people who voted for her.

 

 

[/quote]

If only Dennis had explained the offside rule to her things would have been so different.

H

[Indy 3,297]

Nutty it''s not only the aurorities, as you focus on Thatcher, it was the policing of the time! always aggrssive towrads the fans heading them into the entrance, the venue, poor design of that ground and barriers, poor stuarding just allowing anyone in, open the gates and let them in, (poor response by the venue & medical response which again should have been arranged faster), the amount of fans and the time to kick off, the match officials should have put the game back, backed by the FA to allow time for the fans to get in.

 

You cannot lay the blame at the door of one thing but all the things, which has had a huge impact on football for the better in my opinion.

 

Tragic and sad day, no need to blame, more the need for accountability for those who tried so hard to hide things for so long!

 

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

Sanctamonious tosh!  "we all have to bear some responsibility"! I was behaving myself, like other Norwich fans, in the Holte End at Villa Park. How was I/we responsible in any way, shape or form. This is all begining to sounds strangely like the German character in the Harry Enfield show who constantly wants to apologise for his countries action during zee vor! People are falling over themselves to prove their PC, right on credentials. There were lots and lots of contributary factors to the disaster, lots if people didn''t act in the way tey should, the bioggest single group of which were icketless fans turning up to an all ticket game.

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]Sanctamonious tosh!  "we all have to bear some responsibility"! I was behaving myself, like other Norwich fans, in the Holte End at Villa Park. How was I/we responsible in any way, shape or form. This is all begining to sounds strangely like the German character in the Harry Enfield show who constantly wants to apologise for his countries action during zee vor! People are falling over themselves to prove their PC, right on credentials. There were lots and lots of contributary factors to the disaster, lots if people didn''t act in the way tey should, the bioggest single group of which were icketless fans turning up to an all ticket game.[/quote]Not going to respond to my post then?