Hillsborough Report - Norwich Memories

[kdncfc 27]

I was at Villa Park that day and just remember feeling totally numb walking back to the car as the true horror of what happened at the other semi began to unfold, barely a word was spoken all the way back to Norwich as everyone was emotionally drained at the days events.I was also at West Ham and to say I was relieved to get out of there alive was an understatement, absolute madness.

[dpit 1]

Yes, I was at Villa Park too. On getting into the car and turning on the radio at the end of the match, I was immediately ashamed of my disappointment and frustration at the City performance - raw shocking reality cutting through my petty emotions at a football result - fathers, sons, mothers and daughters who went to a football match and never returned - a terrible day and the report today has stunned me at the levels some people will stoop to to cover their backs.

[Hissing Sid 154]

There is accountability from all sides, the poor access to the Leppings Lane stand, the fences (from an age when all fans were seen as hooligans and treated like cattle), the poor command and control exercised by the police, and unfortunately the late arrival of hundreds/thousands of fans trying to get in at the same time.

All of these factors contributed to this tragedy, I don''t believe you can single out one organisation. It was a horrific tragedy and I hope the families can get some closure at last.

I too was at Villa Park and it was a squeeze at the top of the Holte End terrace, so much so that I moved down toward the front. Upton Park in the Quarter Final was even worse, although I don''t remember being particularly worried at the time. With hindsight though, I shudder to think what could have happened there had we scored that day.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

Well in a way you know, we are to blame. kdncfc, dpit, me, Tilly, Ricardo, Wiz, all of us who allowed the authorities to treat all English football fans as scum. We allowed them to pen us in and herd us like animals. On the back of that situation it was easy for authorities to blame football fans.

 

Those of us who were at Villa Park that day could just as easily been at Hillsborough. And we have all been in situations that have been close to being disastrous.

 

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

 

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

I just wonder if Lord Justice Taylor''s report would have been different had he been armed with this latest information.The one law that really gets my back up, that came in, was the alcohol ban.  I can sit and watch cricket and drink all day, or rugby and have a pint, but even during the Olympics if you stood where you could see a football match with a pint in your hand you''d be arrested ! An unjust law.

[ricardo 7,382]

I was at Villa Park that afternoon and remember the sombre mood that overshadowed our defeat.In all honesty the crowd troubles of the 70''s and 80''s were an accident waiting to happen. The ancient stadiums were built during an era when crowds were much more disciplined and rowdy behaviour was not the norm. The 70''s was often a time of open warfare between opposing fans and a lot of the people were there for the love of the agro and not the love of the game. There were a couple of occasions when I feared personal injury, one being the infamous Man Utd match when that guy fell through the roof of the Barclay and the fabric of the stand was torn to bits after the game. I was in the River End with my son and had to get to the other end to get home (I lived in Thorpe at the time). We had to brave missiles from the Barclay mound on the way. Wood and bits of Asbestos were flying everywhere.The other occasion was after an Ipswich match when we had to take cover under a car outside the then Water Board Offices on Thorpe Rd. A crowd of Ippy fans had just trashed the front of the Coach and Horse pub and then decided to do the same to the Water Board Office windows. The car we sheltered under got a right pasting as well. The barriers were erected as a safety measure to keep opposing fans from getting at each other and it is ironic to think that they were the very thing that condemned scores of people to a horrible death.The only time I ever felt in real fear of my life was at White Hart Lane in 1959. I was 13 yrs old and got crushed up against a barrier in a 65k crowd. It is terrifying to feel the air squeezed out of you and being unable to do anything to save yourself. Luckily when the crowd surge went back I managed to get to safety but the memory of it gave me nightmares for years after.

[Hooleyfan 0]

So many memories of that day...had put so much effort into getting ticket for the semi final..working in London ay the time, I had to travel up to Norwich for an early morning queue for tickets some days before the game...was at Carrow Rd at 6am ...then travelled from London to central Birmingham by National Express coach with quite a few Everton fans. Then a train from New St to Aston made it something of an ordeal before the game started.

Half way up the Holte End was packed and really was only aware of something going wrong at Hillsborough from the ground''s big notice board at half time, which I think said something about delayed start and a serious incident.

Obviously very disappointed to lose the game and I remember the crush as I moved towards the exit. I don''t think I have ever had such an uncomfortable experience at a football ground ever...and can only imagine how much worse it was for the thousands of Liverpool fans at the other semi final that afternoon.

I don''t think I realised what had happened there until I got back into London although in the confusion of the afternoon my family had worried that I had been in Sheffield, not being big followers of football...and it being long before mobile phones were in widespread usage.

Visiting Hillsborough many years later, I found the Epping Lane end of the ground, under/behind the stand a horrible experience and can''t get over how small and claustrophobic the exits from the terrace are

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well in a way you know, we are to blame. kdncfc, dpit, me, Tilly, Ricardo, Wiz, all of us who allowed the authorities to treat all English football fans as scum. We allowed them to pen us in and herd us like animals. On the back of that situation it was easy for authorities to blame football fans.

 

Those of us who were at Villa Park that day could just as easily been at Hillsborough. And we have all been in situations that have been close to being disastrous.

 

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

 [/quote]

So very true NN. The treatment of all football fans was an utter scandal (and still is when you consider how we get ripped off at every turn).

I was at Villa Park too and found myself completely at the will of the crowd. I was wedged in by the shoulders and my feet had no contact with the concrete steps. When the crowd surged I genuinely thought I would drop and get trampled… it so easily could have been us.

The actions of so many post Hillsborough was a stain on this country… that the police force, ambulance service and other authorities could connive to p*ss on the corpses of the 96 still leaves me angered to this day and there should be some form of punishment for those that willingly carried out such a cover up. I don''t know what exactly, remove their titles, take back their pensions, I don''t really know, but just getting away with it is wrong.

The Thatcher government did not undertake any form of sufficient in-depth inquiries and merely added to the blackening of the names of the dead… I recall Bernard Ingham being a particularly virulent attacker in the immediate aftermath… and as for MacKenzie and the Sun… just close the bloody place and concrete over it and then bang MacKenzie up in Walton nick, just for being an ar sole! For 23 years that scumbag has known what he did and only now, like some sick joke, does he find it in himself to offer a meaningless apology.

My friend from Dereham, a lifelong Liverpool fan, was at Hillsborough. He was at that barricade that was in all the photographs, the one that was bent double. He managed to save an old man''s life and was awarded a civic bravery award but he came home from Hillsborough a very changed young man and has never truly recovered. I have spent many hours in the past talking it through with him and it is still, to this day, very raw. 

As I type this I am listening to the names of the dead being read out on the radio… so many young people, some not even teenagers. And their crime was going to support their team in an FA Cup final… just like me, you and many thousands of others. Imagine how we would feel if it had been us treated in such a shameful way.

I would very much appreciate it if we sang YNWA before the Hammers game. I''d like it too if we did the same when Liverpool come to Carrow Road.

Football rivalry is fine… it is very much part of the football life we all live, but I think there are times of far greater magnitude when we all become a football family and should show solidarity with others… especially those that have fought so long and so hard for justice.

My Liverpool supporting mate took my Norwich scarf with him to lay alongside the many thousands of others at Anfield, they showed the colours of every club in the land, even Man Utd. And that is how it should be, because for so many years it was us (the fans) against them (the authorities) and they tried their best to make our lives a bloody misery.

Justice for the 96. Peace for those that lost their loved ones. You''ll Never Walk Alone.

[Hooleyfan 0]

[quote user="Hooleyfan"]So many memories of that day...had put so much effort into getting ticket for the semi final..working in London ay the time, I had to travel up to Norwich for an early morning queue for tickets some days before the game...was at Carrow Rd at 6am ...then travelled from London to central Birmingham by National Express coach with quite a few Everton fans. Then a train from New St to Aston made it something of an ordeal before the game started.

That should have been Leppings Lane...not Epping (damn predictive text!)

Half way up the Holte End was packed and really was only aware of something going wrong at Hillsborough from the ground''s big notice board at half time, which I think said something about delayed start and a serious incident.

Obviously very disappointed to lose the game and I remember the crush as I moved towards the exit. I don''t think I have ever had such an uncomfortable experience at a football ground ever...and can only imagine how much worse it was for the thousands of Liverpool fans at the other semi final that afternoon.

I don''t think I realised what had happened there until I got back into London although in the confusion of the afternoon my family had worried that I had been in Sheffield, not being big followers of football...and it being long before mobile phones were in widespread usage.

Visiting Hillsborough many years later, I found the Epping Lane end of the ground, under/behind the stand a horrible experience and can''t get over how small and claustrophobic the exits from the terrace are[/quote]

[ricardo 7,382]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well in a way you know, we are to blame. kdncfc, dpit, me, Tilly, Ricardo, Wiz, all of us who allowed the authorities to treat all English football fans as scum. We allowed them to pen us in and herd us like animals. On the back of that situation it was easy for authorities to blame football fans.

 

Those of us who were at Villa Park that day could just as easily been at Hillsborough. And we have all been in situations that have been close to being disastrous.

 

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

 

 

[/quote]I agree with a lot of that Nigel but I don''t think we can blame poor old "Fatcha" for the crowd troubles of those years. It was the English disease reputation and the behaviour of Liverpool fans in Heysal that got us banned from Europe. I remember watching that game on TV and there was no sign of Maggie in a Red and White scarf singing "You''ll Never Walk Alone". And as for the behaviour of fans in those days you have to admit it wasn''t good and a lot of the opprobrium was sadly merited. You only have to go on Waccoe to see that there is still an undercurrent of viciousness just below the surface in English football. Thankfully Stadiums are safer now and lessons have been learned from those tragic events.

[Hooleyfan 0]

That should have been Leppings Lane...not Epping (damn predictive text!)

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well in a way you know, we are to blame. kdncfc, dpit, me, Tilly, Ricardo, Wiz, all of us who allowed the authorities to treat all English football fans as scum. We allowed them to pen us in and herd us like animals. On the back of that situation it was easy for authorities to blame football fans.

 

Those of us who were at Villa Park that day could just as easily been at Hillsborough. And we have all been in situations that have been close to being disastrous.

 

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

You''ll never get me to believe that football fans are always innocent and it''s always the authorities at fault. At the time, the Thatcher ban did seem unfair but something needed to be done after Heysel and so I accepted it. The scandal with Hillsborough is that the authorities tried to blame others instead of admitting their errors. All sides were culpable and should have admitted their failings and it has always been obvious that the gate opening was the catalyst for a dreadful disaster. also, if those mesh fences had not been there the disaster would not have happened as the fans could have escaped to safety on the pitch. No one party was totally responsible for all that happened that day as the fences existed because of the dreadful hooligan problems we had in those days.

 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,429]

Was at Upton Park and the Villa Park Semi.

Upton Park is the example I now use to describe to my children (and anyone else that cares to listen) of how awful terracing was and how, personally, I am always happy to sit at a football game. There was a huge fence between the two sets of fans and the City fans had climbed up on it, rendering any kind of view of a quarter of the pitch impossible. I couldn’t see the goal at our end. We were pelted with coins and “liquid” poured down the terracing steps. We surged back and forward (as was usual at this time) and mostly our feet were off the ground.

Looking back on it, such circumstances was a disaster waiting to happen.

Villa Park was altogether different. The Everton fans were late as a result, we heard later, of traffic problems. Similar problems beset the Liverpool fans going to Hillsborough. Rumours were spreading around Villa about crowd trouble at Hillsborough and I think some sort of announcement was made about a delayed kick off, and then abandonment.  As we travelled home, it was clear that something had happened but my recollection was it wasn’t at all clear of the extent of the disaster - but it gradually unfolded throughout the evening.

This is as close as I have ever been to a disaster where you empathise so closely with the victims. The football meant nothing and in fact, we were glad that Everton won as being at Wembley that year would have been meaningless.

It was a day I will never forget...

 

[stratton canary 134]

Me & my mates were in the Holte End at villa park, the score board flashed up that the other semi- final had been abandoned, no body at that time knew why, we also went to upton park, we all had to past though a wooden security stand type thing( metal detector), inside it was murder, you could not move, it was boiling hot & city fans were fighting amongst themselves as tempers flared. beat westham 3-1 in replay at carrow road i think

[Barclay hero 0]

I was living in Manchester at the time, and me and one other Norwich fan got a train back to Manchester with a load of Everton fans. The only talk was what had happened and the Everton fans were very quiet...not knowing if friends or neighbours had been affected

The next time Hillsborough held a Semi we were there for that too, and I remember feeling very subdued walking into the same Leppings Lane end....I think a lot of Norwich fans felt the same and it possibly transmitted to the team - certainly we didnt play well against what was the lowest ranked side in the competition....

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well in a way you know, we are to blame. kdncfc, dpit, me, Tilly, Ricardo, Wiz, all of us who allowed the authorities to treat all English football fans as scum. We allowed them to pen us in and herd us like animals. On the back of that situation it was easy for authorities to blame football fans.

 

Those of us who were at Villa Park that day could just as easily been at Hillsborough. And we have all been in situations that have been close to being disastrous.

 

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

You''ll never get me to believe that football fans are always innocent and it''s always the authorities at fault. At the time, the Thatcher ban did seem unfair but something needed to be done after Heysel and so I accepted it. The scandal with Hillsborough is that the authorities tried to blame others instead of admitting their errors. All sides were culpable and should have admitted their failings and it has always been obvious that the gate opening was the catalyst for a dreadful disaster. also, if those mesh fences had not been there the disaster would not have happened as the fans could have escaped to safety on the pitch. No one party was totally responsible for all that happened that day as the fences existed because of the dreadful hooligan problems we had in those days.

 

[/quote]

All football fans were herded and caged like animals because the authorities, from Thatcher downwards, failed to deal with the problem. Herding and caging certainly wasn''t dealing with the problem. If you were around at that time I''m amazed you accept it so readily. I already said that I believe we were partly to blame for allowing it. Your attitude suggests you thought it was right!

 

There was a hooligan problem. But that was never going to be erased by treating everyone like a hooligan. All that achieved was to escalate the problem.

 

And Rickyyyyyyyyy... I reckon you had a bit of a thing for Maggie[W][U] She blamed all the problems on to English football fans. I''m sure I don''t remember her ever stating it was the minority of English football fans. Neither did she ever take measures to weed out the minority of hooligans. She blanket labeled all of us. And we let her. That was why she so easily went along with blaming fans and clearing the authorities and that''s why the wicked old trout should come out of her gaga home and apologise today.

 

 

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,413]

I was at Villa Park on that fateful day in the Trinity Road Stand. Rumours had come through on radio of "trouble" at Hillsborough and the game had been abandoned. We wrongly assumed that it was Liverpool fans playing up again. It wasn''t until we got home that evening that the true horrific story became clear.

I "enjoyed" the West Ham game from the safety of the rear of the tunnel entrance to the terraces, such was the crush.

As for blame at Hillsborough it was a perfect storm of fast-moving unfortunate events.

I hadn''t realised until recently the very inadequate signage which just said "standing"above the tunnel to the Leppings Lane End terrace which all the fans headed for once the gate had been opened, down into the two ill-fated pens, when pens to the left and right and available from the same concourse had plenty of space.

[Billabong 0]

So the police, ambulance service and the fire brigade take the lion''s share of the blame! - Somehow this doesn''t ring true. I had a very good friend who attended that game as a neutral supporter.

He tells me of hoards of ticketless Liverpool supporters, trying to force their way into the ground and from 1pm onwards, it was mayhem around that area. In his words "alcohol and aggression fuelled the whole thing"

Seems political correctness would rather slag off innocent fire fighters and ambulance crews, rather than accept, hoards of Liverpool fans, took advantage of the situation, forced their way into the ground and crushed fellow supporters at the front!

You only need to look at old video footage, to feel the aggressive atmosphere before that game.

The findings of this latest report are not only unfair to the emergency services but quite frankly a joke

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

[quote user="Billabong"]So the police, ambulance service and the fire brigade take the lion''s share of the blame! - Somehow this doesn''t ring true. I had a very good friend who attended that game as a neutral supporter.

He tells me of hoards of ticketless Liverpool supporters, trying to force their way into the ground and from 1pm onwards, it was mayhem around that area. In his words "alcohol and aggression fuelled the whole thing"

Seems political correctness would rather slag off innocent fire fighters and ambulance crews, rather than accept, hoards of Liverpool fans, took advantage of the situation, forced their way into the ground and crushed fellow supporters at the front!

You only need to look at old video footage, to feel the aggressive atmosphere before that game.

The findings of this latest report are not only unfair to the emergency services but quite frankly a joke[/quote]Do you genuinely believe that? If so I pity you.

[A Gay Schoolboy 0]

[quote user="Billabong"]So the police, ambulance service and the fire brigade take the lion''s share of the blame! - Somehow this doesn''t ring true. I had a very good friend who attended that game as a neutral supporter.

He tells me of hoards of ticketless Liverpool supporters, trying to force their way into the ground and from 1pm onwards, it was mayhem around that area. In his words "alcohol and aggression fuelled the whole thing"

Seems political correctness would rather slag off innocent fire fighters and ambulance crews, rather than accept, hoards of Liverpool fans, took advantage of the situation, forced their way into the ground and crushed fellow supporters at the front!

You only need to look at old video footage, to feel the aggressive atmosphere before that game.

The findings of this latest report are not only unfair to the emergency services but quite frankly a joke[/quote]As opposed to you, who''d rather slag off the dead, despite all evidence to the contrary.It never ceases to amaze me, how no matter what the police do, no matter how much evidence comes to light that shows them to be at best incompetents, and at worse, lying b*stards who will do anything to cover their arses - there will always be some authoritarian mentalists who will defend their actions.You''ve clearly not read any of the evidence that has come to light today, so perhaps you should keep your disgusting opinions to yourself.

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

[quote user="Billabong"]So the police, ambulance service and the fire brigade take the lion''s share of the blame! - Somehow this doesn''t ring true. I had a very good friend who attended that game as a neutral supporter.

He tells me of hoards of ticketless Liverpool supporters, trying to force their way into the ground and from 1pm onwards, it was mayhem around that area. In his words "alcohol and aggression fuelled the whole thing"

Seems political correctness would rather slag off innocent fire fighters and ambulance crews, rather than accept, hoards of Liverpool fans, took advantage of the situation, forced their way into the ground and crushed fellow supporters at the front!

You only need to look at old video footage, to feel the aggressive atmosphere before that game.

The findings of this latest report are not only unfair to the emergency services but quite frankly a joke[/quote]

The truth is Billabong that the Police used this notoriety of a minority section of Liverpool fans and jumped to a conclusion as the tragedy unfolded.

They then set about concocting a smear campaign and sanitising Police statements and responses to put the blame elsewhere.

Shameful

H

[ricardo 7,382]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well in a way you know, we are to blame. kdncfc, dpit, me, Tilly, Ricardo, Wiz, all of us who allowed the authorities to treat all English football fans as scum. We allowed them to pen us in and herd us like animals. On the back of that situation it was easy for authorities to blame football fans.

 

Those of us who were at Villa Park that day could just as easily been at Hillsborough. And we have all been in situations that have been close to being disastrous.

 

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

You''ll never get me to believe that football fans are always innocent and it''s always the authorities at fault. At the time, the Thatcher ban did seem unfair but something needed to be done after Heysel and so I accepted it. The scandal with Hillsborough is that the authorities tried to blame others instead of admitting their errors. All sides were culpable and should have admitted their failings and it has always been obvious that the gate opening was the catalyst for a dreadful disaster. also, if those mesh fences had not been there the disaster would not have happened as the fans could have escaped to safety on the pitch. No one party was totally responsible for all that happened that day as the fences existed because of the dreadful hooligan problems we had in those days.

 

[/quote]

All football fans were herded and caged like animals because the authorities, from Thatcher downwards, failed to deal with the problem. Herding and caging certainly wasn''t dealing with the problem. If you were around at that time I''m amazed you accept it so readily. I already said that I believe we were partly to blame for allowing it. Your attitude suggests you thought it was right!

 

There was a hooligan problem. But that was never going to be erased by treating everyone like a hooligan. All that achieved was to escalate the problem.

 

And Rickyyyyyyyyy... I reckon you had a bit of a thing for Maggie[W][U] She blamed all the problems on to English football fans. I''m sure I don''t remember her ever stating it was the minority of English football fans. Neither did she ever take measures to weed out the minority of hooligans. She blanket labeled all of us. And we let her. That was why she so easily went along with blaming fans and clearing the authorities and that''s why the wicked old trout should come out of her gaga home and apologise today.

 

 

[/quote]It''s about time all of us who lived through that time admitted that we allowed hooliganism to take such a hold. Blaming "Fatcha" for everything that was wrong about that period is naive and disingenuous. I doubt she had much to do with all those slogans scrawled on walls in Liverpool proclaiming Liverpool 39 Juventus 0 after the Heysel tragedy. Those 96 poor sods who died at Hillsborough were in no way to blame but there were plenty of others who were and they weren''t all Policemen or MP''s. This tradgedy was a long time in the making Nigel, and was brewing up long before "Fatcha".This is what Nick Hornby wrote in Fever Pitch about a game in 1972, 17 years before Hillsborough: "

I loved being able to frighten shoppers in Derby or Norwich or

Southampton (and they were frightened - you could see it). My

opportunities for intimidating people had been limited hitherto, though I

knew it wasn''t me that made people hurry to the other side of the road,

hauling their children after them; it was us, and I was part of us, an

organ in the hooligan body. The fact that I was the appendix - small,

useless, hidden out of the way somwhere in the middle - didn''t matter in

the slightest. " I know exactly where Hornby was coming from and we were all there Nigel, you and me both. 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="paul moy"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well in a way you know, we are to blame. kdncfc, dpit, me, Tilly, Ricardo, Wiz, all of us who allowed the authorities to treat all English football fans as scum. We allowed them to pen us in and herd us like animals. On the back of that situation it was easy for authorities to blame football fans.

 

Those of us who were at Villa Park that day could just as easily been at Hillsborough. And we have all been in situations that have been close to being disastrous.

 

And what of Thatcher? She''s most to blame but has she come out and apologised? We let her ban us from Europe and treat us like the scum of Britain. She was happy as a pig in sh1t to blame football fans for everything.

[/quote]

You''ll never get me to believe that football fans are always innocent and it''s always the authorities at fault. At the time, the Thatcher ban did seem unfair but something needed to be done after Heysel and so I accepted it. The scandal with Hillsborough is that the authorities tried to blame others instead of admitting their errors. All sides were culpable and should have admitted their failings and it has always been obvious that the gate opening was the catalyst for a dreadful disaster. also, if those mesh fences had not been there the disaster would not have happened as the fans could have escaped to safety on the pitch. No one party was totally responsible for all that happened that day as the fences existed because of the dreadful hooligan problems we had in those days.

 

[/quote]

All football fans were herded and caged like animals because the authorities, from Thatcher downwards, failed to deal with the problem. Herding and caging certainly wasn''t dealing with the problem. If you were around at that time I''m amazed you accept it so readily. I already said that I believe we were partly to blame for allowing it. Your attitude suggests you thought it was right!

 

There was a hooligan problem. But that was never going to be erased by treating everyone like a hooligan. All that achieved was to escalate the problem.

 

And Rickyyyyyyyyy... I reckon you had a bit of a thing for Maggie[W][U] She blamed all the problems on to English football fans. I''m sure I don''t remember her ever stating it was the minority of English football fans. Neither did she ever take measures to weed out the minority of hooligans. She blanket labeled all of us. And we let her. That was why she so easily went along with blaming fans and clearing the authorities and that''s why the wicked old trout should come out of her gaga home and apologise today.

 

 

[/quote]

It''s about time all of us who lived through that time admitted that we allowed hooliganism to take such a hold. Blaming "Fatcha" for everything that was wrong about that period is naive and disingenuous. I doubt she had much to do with all those slogans scrawled on walls in Liverpool proclaiming Liverpool 39 Juventus 0 after the Heysel tragedy. Those 96 poor sods who died at Hillsborough were in no way to blame but there were plenty of others who were and they weren''t all Policemen or MP''s. This tradgedy was a long time in the making Nigel, and was brewing up long before "Fatcha".

This is what Nick Hornby wrote in Fever Pitch about a game in 1972, 17 years before Hillsborough:
 
" I loved being able to frighten shoppers in Derby or Norwich or Southampton (and they were frightened - you could see it). My opportunities for intimidating people had been limited hitherto, though I knew it wasn''t me that made people hurry to the other side of the road, hauling their children after them; it was us, and I was part of us, an organ in the hooligan body. The fact that I was the appendix - small, useless, hidden out of the way somwhere in the middle - didn''t matter in the slightest. "
 
I know exactly where Hornby was coming from and we were all there Nigel, you and me both.
 
[/quote]

 

Good debate Rickyyyyyy[Y]

 

Your opening sentence is the first point I made. And yes we should have done more. Sometimes I think back to what we allowed to happen "in the interests of safety" as being unreal. The more years that pass the more ridiculous it appears. Grown men, fathers, holding down a decent job, no police record and yet we allowed ourselves to be treated like the scum Thatcher thought we all were. You say it''s not Thatcher but she was the leader. And a strong leader I''m given to believe. On too many occasions she made snap judgements that the weak beneath her didn''t challenge. History has shown she was wrong.  History has shown that I''m still holding down a job still a father and now a grandfather, and still no police record. But I''m the scum of Britain and the ladie''s not for turning.

 

 

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

If Thatcher was so bad then why didn''t Mr Blair right so many wrongs?

H

[stoke canary 0]

I was at Villa and i was gutted with the result but by the time we had made the short journey back to Stoke losing didnt matter

[Badger 2,405]

Like others who have posted previously I was at Villa park and West Ham before it.

The West Ham game was shambolic getting out, and particularly, in. Someone else has referred to the little corridor about 1 person wide that we all has to walk through which was really frightening - as a twenty something male, I was relieved to get out onto the terraces, for younger and older people, it must have been far worse.

It was symptomatic of the time - there was no consideration given to our safety - we were merely working class scum who were a problem had to be "managed." Every effort was made to contain fans but no thought given to the conditions that we were having to bear. If you liked football, the normal assumption was that you weren''t a sports fan but a hooligan .

It was a very sombre journey on the way back, but summed up for me when the four of us stopped for a quiet drink in an empty pub: no colours; no noise just quiet conversation in our, frankly, middle class accents. The owner overheard us talking about football and worked out that we were football fans and asked us to leave. It was the attitude of "middle Britain" at the time: the public mood.

Lesson - have a healthy scepticism of the public mood - it is rarely informed and manipulated by politicians wanting to provide a nice simple solution that people can understand. I could talk about similarities with the way that our public debt "crisis" is discussed: when it actually at very low levels historically but perhaps now is not the time.

For younger fans, it is perhaps a bit of context about some of the seemingly pointless regulations we have now - no standing etc

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="haisbrohacker"]If Thatcher was so bad then why didn''t Mr Blair right so many wrongs?

H[/quote]You are spectacularly missing the point!

[Drazen Muzinic 1,445]

I was at both Upton Park and Villa Park as a 16 year old and memories of both of those days have stayed with me ever since.

Getting into Upton Park was as bad as described by previous posters.

I can remember really enjoying my day out and full of youthful exuberance with a handful of mates. We were having a good laugh, singing and bouncing the inflatables (the first and only time I''ve handled an inflatable woman!) around. I can recall how tight the crowd was getting and how unbelievably more and more fans were being let into our pens. We were repeatedly told to move along the terraces and I kept saying ''they surely can''t be letting any more in?''. I daren''t put my arms by my side in case I couldn''t get them raised again if I needed to.

That was the most scared I have ever been at a football match.

I wondered if the ticketing was wrong that day or the ''security system'' they used to get us into the ground was abandoned as kick off got closer. In those days kick-offs were never put back because of fear of trouble from supporters - the clubs and police wanted away fans for as short a time as possible.

As for Villa park, sadly the Scousers reputations preceded them and, where I stood - near the back of the Holte end - it was general consensous that they had been fighting and caused the abandonment. Our only source of information was the scoreboard in the far corner of Villa Park that flashed up a really basic message about the game being stopped after so many minutes.

It seems so archaic now in those pre-mobile days that we really did not have a clue what had happened until we got back onto Big Duncan''s coach. At this point I remember the confirmed death toll was around the 50-60 mark. The journey was sombre and nobody was in the mood for the usual high jinks at the many stops on the way back. We just wanted to know the latest news. In the loft somewhere I still have a copy of a late sports paper I bought on the way home confirming the final number of dead as something like 75.

The scale of the tragedy didn''t sink in until I got home and watched the pictures on Match Of The Day, remembered Upton Park and thought ''There but for the grace of God...''

My lasting memory was back at work on Monday. Such was the antipathy towards football fans/hooliganism at the time, there were some colleagues who clearly bought the theory that fans were responsible and it was just another ''bad'' football story to top off all the others the 70s/80''s had to offer.

Although it was only just over 20 years we can now say we live in far more enlightened times.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,748]

After it was yesterday revealed that the Taylor report''s recommendations to change to all seater stadiums were based on lies and corruption, I wonder if this now further supports the argument to bring back terracing?

[Tumbleweed 106]

My memory is getting back to the car after the game. I had gone to VP with a couple of friends, but when we walked back to the area where a lot of City fans had parked we knew something was badly wrong. Car doors were open, folk were standing around listening to the radio. It was a strange scene like no other. We just stopped and looked. Nobody was talking to each other, no one was leaping in and driving off like they normally do after a game. There was just this eerie mood with the sound of many radios and groups of people just looking at the ground. As we picked our way through the car park we got snippets here and there as people looked up when we passed and you could see the shock on their faces. 

 

At that stage we had no idea. Like all others, info in the stadium had been minimal. An announcement about crowd disturbance, rumours of rioting, a match abandoned. It was just horrible. In an instant the City defeat was forgotten. Our disappointment at missing out on Wembley was immediately put into the meaningless context it deserved.