How far can NCFC go as a club?

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

City1st, you are correct......we have to be in The Premiership for at least three years first.

 

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

OK fair enough.3 years really isnt that far away, this is our first year.

[Buncey 1]

Considering we are essentially safe, almost all

of our external debt will be paid off within 2 years. If, and this is a big if,

we can stay up next season, then we may be one of the extraordinarily few premier

league clubs to be essentially debt free. Being optimistic and all, what can

this mean for our future?

Well, for those in favour of a stadium expansion, it certainly gives us a

better platform to fund the development. The question that is being asked in

the board room is not whether we can fill 35,000 (I personally feel that that

much is true) but how we can go about funding the construction of any building

work without crippling the club. Too many clubs have gone down the road of

building stadiums and/or expansions that have led their clubs to near financial

ruin; we were almost one of those. By ensuring we are a regular premiership

outfit, with low debt, high season ticket sales and a consistent cash-flow we

show to the lenders that we are a "safe-bet". In the short-run this

makes us more likely to command lower repayment rates and, perhaps more

importantly, favourable conditions on any funding we receive. A huge part in

the downfall of these projects is that the rates are just too high (like for us

in the past) or that the conditions of the funding are crippling (Arsenal tied

themselves into a long-term deal with Emirates that earns them pittance

relative to the other big clubs and Southampton mortgaged their future ticket

sales to get funding for St. Mary''s.)

Realistically, unless we get massive investment, we will never challenge the

''top 6''. Even massive investment however cannot guarantee entry into the Promised

Land. Randy Lerner has pumped a whopping quarter of a billion pounds into Aston

Villa, only to see them slide backwards as the fortune of Spurs and Man City rises.

As much as I love Norwich; few outside of Nelsons'' County share those

sentiments. Whether we like it or not, we are just not as fashionable as

established brands nee teams such as Aston Villa, Everton and Newcastle and

unfortunately we don''t reside in London like the tourist fly-trap of Fulham and

billionaires social club of QPR. If we are to do better than those teams then

it is going to take a combination of astute financial management, an

exceptional (yet low paid) back room staff, and an efficient and cost effective

playing squad. Luckily, we possess all this, however the real difficulty is

holding on to this set-up from the envious eyes of your rivals, and being able

to replace this set-up when it ultimately leaves Norfolk. We should be planning

for this eventuality now, and simply not waiting for it to happen.Below is a revenue table from the fantastic

Swiss Ramble. As you can see there the big-6 are miles ahead

of the rest of the pack, with no hope of catching them. Ultimately, the best we can hope for is to be the best

of the rest and maybe take advantage of any slip-ups from the traditional big

clubs (ala Liverpool). To do this we are going to have to be an incredibly

efficient and well organised outfit, and far from the ''little old Norwich'' club

of the past.

[Buncey 1]

Considering we are essentially safe, almost all

of our external debt will be paid off within 2 years. If, and this is a big if,

we can stay up next season, then we may be one of the extraordinarily few premier

league clubs to be essentially debt free. Being optimistic and all, what can

this mean for our future?

Well, for those in favour of a stadium expansion, it certainly gives us a

better platform to fund the development. The question that is being asked in

the board room is not whether we can fill 35,000 (I personally feel that that

much is true) but how we can go about funding the construction of any building

work without crippling the club. Too many clubs have gone down the road of

building stadiums and/or expansions that have led their clubs to near financial

ruin; we were almost one of those. By ensuring we are a regular premiership

outfit, with low debt, high season ticket sales and a consistent cash-flow we

show to the lenders that we are a "safe-bet". In the short-run this

makes us more likely to command lower repayment rates and, perhaps more

importantly, favourable conditions on any funding we receive. A huge part in

the downfall of these projects is that the rates are just too high (like for us

in the past) or that the conditions of the funding are crippling (Arsenal tied

themselves into a long-term deal with Emirates that earns them pittance

relative to the other big clubs and Southampton mortgaged their future ticket

sales to get funding for St. Mary''s.)

Realistically, unless we get massive investment, we will never challenge the

''top 6''. Even massive investment however cannot guarantee entry into the Promised

Land. Randy Lerner has pumped a whopping quarter of a billion pounds into Aston

Villa, only to see them slide backwards as the fortune of Spurs and Man City rises.

As much as I love Norwich; few outside of Nelsons'' County share those

sentiments. Whether we like it or not, we are just not as fashionable as

established brands nee teams such as Aston Villa, Everton and Newcastle and

unfortunately we don''t reside in London like the tourist fly-trap of Fulham and

billionaires social club of QPR. If we are to do better than those teams then

it is going to take a combination of astute financial management, an

exceptional (yet low paid) back room staff, and an efficient and cost effective

playing squad. Luckily, we possess all this, however the real difficulty is

holding on to this set-up from the envious eyes of your rivals, and being able

to replace this set-up when it ultimately leaves Norfolk. We should be planning

for this eventuality now, and simply not waiting for it to happen.Below is a revenue table from the fantastic

Swiss Ramble.[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/14newcastlerevenueleagu.jpg/][IMG]http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6936/14newcastlerevenueleagu.jpg[/IMG][/URL]As you can see there the big-6 are miles ahead

of the rest of the pack, with no hope of catching them. Ultimately, the best we can hope for is to be the best

of the rest and maybe take advantage of any slip-ups from the traditional big

clubs (ala Liverpool). To do this we are going to have to be an incredibly

efficient and well organised outfit, and far from the ''little old Norwich'' club

of the past.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Fellas"]Considering we are essentially safe, almost all

of our external debt will be paid off within 2 years. If, and this is a big if,

we can stay up next season, then we may be one of the extraordinarily few premier

league clubs to be essentially debt free. Being optimistic and all, what can

this mean for our future?

Well, for those in favour of a stadium expansion, it certainly gives us a

better platform to fund the development. The question that is being asked in

the board room is not whether we can fill 35,000 (I personally feel that that

much is true) but how we can go about funding the construction of any building

work without crippling the club. Too many clubs have gone down the road of

building stadiums and/or expansions that have led their clubs to near financial

ruin; we were almost one of those. By ensuring we are a regular premiership

outfit, with low debt, high season ticket sales and a consistent cash-flow we

show to the lenders that we are a "safe-bet". In the short-run this

makes us more likely to command lower repayment rates and, perhaps more

importantly, favourable conditions on any funding we receive. A huge part in

the downfall of these projects is that the rates are just too high (like for us

in the past) or that the conditions of the funding are crippling (Arsenal tied

themselves into a long-term deal with Emirates that earns them pittance

relative to the other big clubs and Southampton mortgaged their future ticket

sales to get funding for St. Mary''s.)

Realistically, unless we get massive investment, we will never challenge the

''top 6''. Even massive investment however cannot guarantee entry into the Promised

Land. Randy Lerner has pumped a whopping quarter of a billion pounds into Aston

Villa, only to see them slide backwards as the fortune of Spurs and Man City rises.

As much as I love Norwich; few outside of Nelsons'' County share those

sentiments. Whether we like it or not, we are just not as fashionable as

established brands nee teams such as Aston Villa, Everton and Newcastle and

unfortunately we don''t reside in London like the tourist fly-trap of Fulham and

billionaires social club of QPR. If we are to do better than those teams then

it is going to take a combination of astute financial management, an

exceptional (yet low paid) back room staff, and an efficient and cost effective

playing squad. Luckily, we possess all this, however the real difficulty is

holding on to this set-up from the envious eyes of your rivals, and being able

to replace this set-up when it ultimately leaves Norfolk. We should be planning

for this eventuality now, and simply not waiting for it to happen.Below is a revenue table from the fantastic

Swiss Ramble.[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/14newcastlerevenueleagu.jpg/][IMG]http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6936/14newcastlerevenueleagu.jpg[/IMG][/URL]As you can see there the big-6 are miles ahead

of the rest of the pack, with no hope of catching them. Ultimately, the best we can hope for is to be the best

of the rest and maybe take advantage of any slip-ups from the traditional big

clubs (ala Liverpool). To do this we are going to have to be an incredibly

efficient and well organised outfit, and far from the ''little old Norwich'' club

of the past.

[/quote]With the risk of being accused of being pedantic but, you cannot say ''no hope'' simply because Man City were not in the ''big six club'' a season or three back.  Now I''m not trying to spark another sugar daddy argument, but any EPL club could have in theory a Man City type take over.  Admittedly you can''t catch them on day to day turn over as it were, but I did say risk of being pedantic.

[Buncey 1]

[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]With the risk of being accused of being pedantic but, you cannot say ''no hope'' simply because Man City were not in the ''big six club'' a season or three back.  Now I''m not trying to spark another sugar daddy argument, but any EPL club could have in theory a Man City type take over.  Admittedly you can''t catch them on day to day turn over as it were, but I did say risk of being pedantic.[/quote]That is fair enough.It is of my opinion, that we are not fashionable enough to be subject to such an extrodinary take-over. However, it is not my opinion that matters, only that of the billionaires looking to invest (for some mad reason) in a ftooball club. I''m not really sure what kind of investor that we are targeting, and at the risk of inflaming another storm in a teacup, even owners as wealthy as Fernandes, Lerner and Ashley are not going to be able to bankroll their respective clubs enough to join the upper echelon.I would love for somebody as wealthy as the owners of Man City to buy Norwich, but I can never see it happening.

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="Fellas"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]
With the risk of being accused of being pedantic but, you cannot say ''no hope'' simply because Man City were not in the ''big six club'' a season or three back.  Now I''m not trying to spark another sugar daddy argument, but any EPL club could have in theory a Man City type take over.  Admittedly you can''t catch them on day to day turn over as it were, but I did say risk of being pedantic.
[/quote]

That is fair enough.

It is of my opinion, that we are not fashionable enough to be subject to such an extrodinary take-over. However, it is not my opinion that matters, only that of the billionaires looking to invest (for some mad reason) in a ftooball club.

I''m not really sure what kind of investor that we are targeting, and at the risk of inflaming another storm in a teacup, even owners as wealthy as Fernandes, Lerner and Ashley are not going to be able to bankroll their respective clubs enough to join the upper echelon.

I would love for somebody as wealthy as the owners of Man City to buy Norwich, but I can never see it happening.
[/quote]..........but only one who is a 100% committed canary supporter, no flakey sheikh please.

[lake district canary 0]

Some of us are in cloud cuckoo land.  Wealthy investor?   No thanks.   Not in the terms and directions that it has sent alot of clubs.   It encourages greed, increases expectations, encourages poor business practice and inflates wages.  In short it does more harm than good.    We are lucky we''ve had Delia on board to help keep us afloat in recent years - but once the club is on the right footing - as it is now - the financing should take care of itself.  If the club lives within its means it can still do well and progress but I for one don''t want to go down the dodgy investor route. 

 

 

We are what we are and will never be a Man Utd or a Chelski.   We can progress, grow and improve the status of the club but for goodness sake, take a look round at the clubs that have some kind of benefactor.   They are nearly all of them in some kind of bother  or have created an unpleasant atomosphere in their clubs.  

 

Keep it real. Norwich is a great club in its own right - and we are on the right track.     Enjoy the fact that we are doing well on and off the pitch and watch how the cub grows in this era of being a well run club.  I said in earlier posts on this thread that there are no limits to what we can achieve in the long term - and I stand by that - but only if we stick to a grounded common sense approach.  Once you bring in ''wealth'' you bring alot of baggage in that would spoil the club for many years.      

 

In short be happy with what you''ve got and support that.  We''re not "little ol'' Norwich" and we''re not super "big" Norwich. We are what we are - a great club in its own right.      And we''re on the up and  improving.  Isn''t that enough?

 

 

 

 

[R Mellie 0]

[quote user="Fellas"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]
With the risk of being accused of being pedantic but, you cannot say ''no hope'' simply because Man City were not in the ''big six club'' a season or three back.  Now I''m not trying to spark another sugar daddy argument, but any EPL club could have in theory a Man City type take over.  Admittedly you can''t catch them on day to day turn over as it were, but I did say risk of being pedantic.
[/quote]

That is fair enough.

It is of my opinion, that we are not fashionable enough to be subject to such an extrodinary take-over. However, it is not my opinion that matters, only that of the billionaires looking to invest (for some mad reason) in a ftooball club.

I''m not really sure what kind of investor that we are targeting, and at the risk of inflaming another storm in a teacup, even owners as wealthy as Fernandes, Lerner and Ashley are not going to be able to bankroll their respective clubs enough to join the upper echelon.

I would love for somebody as wealthy as the owners of Man City to buy Norwich, but I can never see it happening.
[/quote]

I''m not sure I''d be comfortable with a wealthy owner a la M City or Chelsea amongst many others.  Fair enough, some have stuck around, but it still feels to me that the ''quick fix'' short-termism actions are often just around the corner for some of these clubs.  The QPR warts n all documentary was revealing inasmuch as showing how some successful business people cannot always transfer their obvious business skills & nous into a football club (accepting that there are undoubtedly exceptions, and excellent ones at that) - Flavio B ordering the next substitute during a game was a classic (and if I recall correctly, I think that sub either scored or set one up), but I still wouldn''t want a character like that at my club i.e. someone who feels as if they constantly know better than the manager.

 

Of course, it''s a results driven business, and the perception of the consequenses of failure cannot be discounted, if for nothing else than the gulf in subsequent yearly income, albeit one cushioned with parachute payments when dropping from the EPL.  

 

A number of factors all have to come together in synchronisation, generally speaking, for a period of sustained success (and success is difficult to quantify given that it is so subjective, and a quite moveable feast).  For example, my definition of ''success'' at the start of the season for us was 17th at the end (forgive me, I am a bit of a worryer!!)...but now, top half somewhere would be a terrific success.

 

To put that into context, I guess Liverpool for example may end up in the top half, but outside the top 6 - I''m sure many Liverpool fans would perceive this as failure. 

 

So, how far could we go.  I don''t know, but I do know that momentum and stability (both on and off the pitch) can make ideal bed partners for the type of work and playing ethic team that PL has put together...I think we currently have both (and long may it continue).

 

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

While I think it''s important to be careful and to keep realistic expectations, it is just as important to dream.Why be a football fan if you cant dream the unexpected?We''ll look back at this thread in 3 years and smile at all of the ''silly dreams'' coming true [;)]Bookmark this thread and when Real Madrid rock up for a champions league tie, read it and laugh ;)[:D]

[Buncey 1]

[quote user="goa lamb vindaloo"]

[quote user="Fellas"][quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"]With the risk of being accused of being pedantic but, you cannot say ''no hope'' simply because Man City were not in the ''big six club'' a season or three back.  Now I''m not trying to spark another sugar daddy argument, but any EPL club could have in theory a Man City type take over.  Admittedly you can''t catch them on day to day turn over as it were, but I did say risk of being pedantic.[/quote]That is fair enough.It is of my opinion, that we are not fashionable enough to be subject to such an extrodinary take-over. However, it is not my opinion that matters, only that of the billionaires looking to invest (for some mad reason) in a ftooball club. I''m not really sure what kind of investor that we are targeting, and at the risk of inflaming another storm in a teacup, even owners as wealthy as Fernandes, Lerner and Ashley are not going to be able to bankroll their respective clubs enough to join the upper echelon.I would love for somebody as wealthy as the owners of Man City to buy Norwich, but I can never see it happening.[/quote]

I''m not sure I''d be comfortable with a wealthy owner a la M City or Chelsea amongst many others.  Fair enough, some have stuck around, but it still feels to me that the ''quick fix'' short-termism actions are often just around the corner for some of these clubs.  The QPR warts n all documentary was revealing inasmuch as showing how some successful business people cannot always transfer their obvious business skills & nous into a football club (accepting that there are undoubtedly exceptions, and excellent ones at that) - Flavio B ordering the next substitute during a game was a classic (and if I recall correctly, I think that sub either scored or set one up), but I still wouldn''t want a character like that at my club i.e. someone who feels as if they constantly know better than the manager.

 

Of course, it''s a results driven business, and the perception of the consequenses of failure cannot be discounted, if for nothing else than the gulf in subsequent yearly income, albeit one cushioned with parachute payments when dropping from the EPL.  

 

A number of factors all have to come together in synchronisation, generally speaking, for a period of sustained success (and success is difficult to quantify given that it is so subjective, and a quite moveable feast).  For example, my definition of ''success'' at the start of the season for us was 17th at the end (forgive me, I am a bit of a worryer!!)...but now, top half somewhere would be a terrific success.

 

To put that into context, I guess Liverpool for example may end up in the top half, but outside the top 6 - I''m sure many Liverpool fans would perceive this as failure. 

 

So, how far could we go.  I don''t know, but I do know that momentum and stability (both on and off the pitch) can make ideal bed partners for the type of work and playing ethic team that PL has put together...I think we currently have both (and long may it continue).

 

[/quote]With the riches come the risks. Unfortunately, even for a club of the stature of Man City, without that investment there is no possibility of them ever winning the league.I completely agree that the outlandish expectations have started to sour the game. However, as a Norwich fan I will always be happy if we are competing in the premier league. I sincerely hope that we as a club have learnt from the management mistakes and financial mismanagement we have undertaken in the past. Our current set-up is fantastic but unfortunately sustained success and a continual punching above our weight will bring vultures looking to take the parts they fancy. The most important thing will be how we go about repeating that success in the future despite being forced into changes.

[Clever Farke 64]

To hit the mark it is necessary to aim above the mark (as some wise ol'' buggah once said). I have no doubt that lambert will be aiming for Champions league qualification next year! We might just scrape a Eurovision place instead.

[Bill 1,788]

"a continual punching above our weight"Can''t see that at all. We are where we are through winning games - that''s how things are measured. That''s why Forest, Sheff Weds, West Ham are where they are. "will bring vultures looking to take the parts they fancy"That''s pretty much how we got what we have now, in the way of squad and management team. What I would suggest is that you don''t under estimate the present board. Lambert has said on numerous occasions that he is ''under pressure'', in as much as he has to deliver. The expextactations have been set far higher than before - backed with a ruthless determination to achieve those ambitions.One of the failings elsewhere has been the belief you can simply buy success, often without the understanding of what makes it work, Hire the best FI driver but without the car or the back up he will not achieve as much as expected. Likewise gatting any ome of the other two parts one their own and you don#t succeed.I think most of the players and mangement team know that as well, so they may well not jump ship as quickly as some folk think. It should also be worth bearing in mind that after three very successful seasons we have not had one player ''grabbed by vultures''. No player has left for'' better things''.Curious fact that. Possibly the longest run with that not happening for many a long decade.Maybe some of the whingers and whiners (not Fellas) might care to dwell on that fact for a bit and perhaps just ask themselves, why is that ?

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Shaker Maker"]While I think it''s important to be careful and to keep realistic expectations, it is just as important to dream.Why be a football fan if you cant dream the unexpected?We''ll look back at this thread in 3 years and smile at all of the ''silly dreams'' coming true [;)]Bookmark this thread and when Real Madrid rock up for a champions league tie, read it and laugh ;)[:D][/quote]you''re right imo.  There''s too much pessimism from our fans at times.  At the time when we dropped to the third division it would''ve been a ''silly dream'' to think that we''d be in the EPL in a couple of seasons.

[south of the border 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

Some of us are in cloud cuckoo land.  Wealthy investor?   No thanks.   Not in the terms and directions that it has sent alot of clubs.   It encourages greed, increases expectations, encourages poor business practice and inflates wages.  In short it does more harm than good.    We are lucky we''ve had Delia on board to help keep us afloat in recent years - but once the club is on the right footing - as it is now - the financing should take care of itself.  If the club lives within its means it can still do well and progress but I for one don''t want to go down the dodgy investor route. 

 

 

We are what we are and will never be a Man Utd or a Chelski.   We can progress, grow and improve the status of the club but for goodness sake, take a look round at the clubs that have some kind of benefactor.   They are nearly all of them in some kind of bother  or have created an unpleasant atomosphere in their clubs.  

 

Keep it real. Norwich is a great club in its own right - and we are on the right track.     Enjoy the fact that we are doing well on and off the pitch and watch how the cub grows in this era of being a well run club.  I said in earlier posts on this thread that there are no limits to what we can achieve in the long term - and I stand by that - but only if we stick to a grounded common sense approach.  Once you bring in ''wealth'' you bring alot of baggage in that would spoil the club for many years.      

 

In short be happy with what you''ve got and support that.  We''re not "little ol'' Norwich" and we''re not super "big" Norwich. We are what we are - a great club in its own right.      And we''re on the up and  improving.  Isn''t that enough?

 

 

 

 

[/quote]Well said Lake District Canary, I agree with all of that.  Our previous CEO once said ''...Prudence with Ambition''!!  I think its probably the only thing he said that I agree with.  Hopefully our present CEO & board are following the sentiment in those words.

[RvWs 4 year contract 0]

This thread was started last year (couple of days before we played Fulham away judging by some of the comments) and it is very interesting reading- especially now that our second season in the Premier League is going to finish in less than 24 hours with a third year already confirmed.

With the arrival of Ricky vW on the horizon our future is looking brighter than it was last year if you ask me!

[morty 0]

I''m loving how everything I said a year ago still makes perfect sense.

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="morty"]I''m loving how everything I said a year ago still makes perfect sense.[/quote]Yes, the dreamers are still dreaming and the realists still have both feet firmly on the floor.Such is football and long may it continue and on Aug 17th a new dream begins.[:D]

[birchfest 397]

Im not sure if I posted in this, not going to trawl through it, but I remember writing a post in this or something similar and my opinion hasnt changed; I hope in the next 5 years we can maintain our top flight status and as a result;On the pitch we grow into a team that the newly promoted dont view as a good chance to get 3 points and a tough away day. Football to be exciting and us to have players that other teams really envy (RVW is a step towards this hopefully) we start pushing into the top 10 and are an outside bet for Europe on league position. Also hopefully a good cup run or two which again might give us a shot at Europe and some silverwear. Re-develop the city stand into something similar to the Jarrold, pushing our capacity up to something just above 30,000As a club I hope we start to get better recognition from not only our own national critics and tabliods but also start getting viewed internationally as a top flight regular... which in turn will help us in the transfer market. In the transfer market we will have really developed depth and quality, with players seeing us as a realistic option when compared to the likes of West Brom, Villa, Everton, Fulham etcOur academy at level 1 will be attracting and producing some of the countries top and most exciting new young talent.And all of this with Ipswich having done nothing.

[TIL 1010 4,746]

Good post birchfest. [Y]

[Bill 1,788]

"but also start getting viewed internationally as a top flight regular... which in turn will help us in the transfer market"

I think our transfer market may well work slightly different whereby it is the intent and potential of the players that counts rather than their current ability and status. Which would mean that it is more a matter of whether the players fist us, not the other way round.As to how far we can go then that will depend upom how football itself goes. At the moment the best we can expect is to be as close to the top seven or so as we can. However I am not too sure whether the current level of TV money will continue. That may well be the reason the club is talking about us being self sustainable - and consequently there has been a cooling off of the idea of diverting money away from the football side of things to subsidise extra seating.At the moment that sustainability is looking good. The U21;s and Undr 18''s are certainly developing along the right lines and the fruits of this will be seen in a few seasons time. That should also be a continous process.So how far we can go is up to football, but we are certainly becoming more and more able to meet those changes and be a very stable, secure and debt free club.

[Monty13 2,234]

"Which would mean that it is more a matter of whether the players fist us, not the other way round"

Jesus wept! when did this become the norm? We''ve been fisting our players??? And worse, they are going to start fisting us! :(

[Bill 1,788]

a typo dear lad, a typo

however it does appear to have excited you 

whatever floats your boat, I suppose

[Devils Advocate. 0]

[quote user="Monty13"]"Which would mean that it is more a matter of whether the players fist us, not the other way round"

Jesus wept! when did this become the norm? We''ve been fisting our players??? And worse, they are going to start fisting us! :([/quote]

I believe that this practice has been going on longer than we think. 70''s idol , Rodney Marsh was told by Sir Alf Ramsey that if he wasn''t playing well by half time in an England game , he would pull him off !