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Brighton Yellow

Everyone Should Sign This Petition

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Avoidable tragedy, which is always the worst kind and yes the families of those that lost loved ones have a right to know what happened, but my fear is that this issue decends even further into a political point scoring football which insults the 96 fans who died that day and their families. knowing what Thatcher''s views were days or weeks after the event is irrelvant to whether more deaths could of been avoided. Part of me also thinks that to spend any more money would be wrong, for example how many lives could of been saved buy putting the millions of pounds spent so far into the heath service, child protection services or forgien aid, no doubt more than the 96 who cannot be brought back.

 

I would also urge anyone to wants to attack Yorkshire police to watch on you tube the footage of the Bradford stadium fire. To see the real time footage of a staduim being full engulfed in fire in less than 2 mintues and the actions of the police who''s bravery saved so many, hero''s on this day. (and no, im not a copper).

 

 

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Whatever it costs mate its worthwhile for justice for the 96 and their families, whatever its costs heads should roll and people responsible should be brought in front of the courts and pay the price.

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Its clear what the Police tried to do with the evidence and it has back fired and come back to haunt them, The top rank police who autherised the cover up should face the courts, And nothing short of life in prison will be enought for them, This will cost the country Millions and rightly so, the families deserve Reccompence.   

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I hear what your saying Ricky but unlike a murder where a victim gets justice by the prosecution and incareration of an individual or individuals many of the contrubuting factors here are policies. Who would you haul in front of the courts, the ticketless fan who got through the turnstile or the turnstile ticket collector? (i know that the number of ticketless fans was overestimated in the 1st report but there were some). I have no idea about the cost of a further enquiry, but whatever it is, I bet there are more effective ways to spend it especially considering that lessons have already been learnt and a football stadium today is one of the safest places you can be in.

 

 

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the Liverpool fans have been cleared of any blame in the report all this pissed up louts with no tix was part of the police BS. So in you opinion 96 lives and a cover up for 23 years should be swept under the carpet, the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. Thats why we cant have the death penalty in this country too much police BS over the years. How many people have died in the police hands and how many convictions none is the answer, its too big and too many lives lost to let go.They say the police are different nowadays, well if they are let them sift out the bad uns and nick them, might restore abit of confidence. Whatever the costs.

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[quote user="ricky knight"]have you actually been watching the news, you sir are a prize xxxx.[/quote]

Ricky,

I can understand your annoyance at the previous post but I must admit to being a tad disturbed at now being told that Liverpool fans were ...''entirely without blame'' ''totally exonerated'' etc.  Now let me get this straight, the findings released yeterday were shocking and you''re spot on in saying that those responsible for the cover up must be pursued and criminal proceedings (if necessary) brought against them.

However, the pivotal moment of the whole day was the decision by Chief Supt. Dukinfield to open the gates. I have not yet read anything that (and to be fair it''s probably within the 400k pages somewhere!) specifically deals with that. Now notwithstanding the bungling, poor attitude and subsequent cover up by Mr. Plod, the fact  is that Dukinfield was placed in an invidious position. Open the gates and let everyone in with /without tickets or stand firm and quite possibly watch as fans got seriously injured  or died in the crush outside. What I really want to understand before I join this nationwide emotional bandwagon of unswerving support for the fans is:-

1. What exactly waas going on outside the ground at the Leppings Lane end in the minutes leading upto the gates being opened?  

2. What caused the crush - was it sheer weight of numbers spilling over from the turnstile queues or was it some fans trying to force their way inside ?

It has to be said that in the football world, the scousers have had a reputation (at big games) for some of their fans trying to............''bunk in''  (their expression). Even as recently as 2007, there was a serious (yet pretty much unreported) incident at Stamford Bridge in the Champions League semi final. Then in the final at Athens it went a stage further with reports of fans stealing tickets off others with others actually forcing their way past ticket entrances. Inside the ground there was some serious incidents of fans getting crushed in concourses trying to get on to the actual viewing areas. Now, because (thankfully) no one was seriously injured or killed the papers and mainstream media did''nt run the story. Talk Sport did though and they gave it saturation coverage the next morning.

Typically the main reaction from scousers was to blame - UEFA, the local police, the stadium, lack of tickets, in short everything and everyone apart from themselves. HOWEVER, there was one or two objective, sensible and realistic scousers who rang in with their side of the story. They confirmed the reports and one said pointedly.......''have our fans learned nothing since Hillsborough''   

Now just because ''bunking in'' happened in 2007 it sure as hell does not automatically mean that it was attempted in 1989.  Truth is we can''t be sure it didn''t happen. Camerons words have been twisted by scousers and others hell bent on blaming everyone other than the fans. What he actuallly said is very revealing:-  

''There was no evidence of EXCEPTIONAL levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness, arriving late'' etc. So some of this did hapen then.

My point to all this is that IF some fans were trying to force those gates down then they should take a share of the blame. Not ''all'' the blame,not ''most'' of the blame but ''part'' of the blame.  I retain an open mind on this until I can (if I ever do) research the whole report. Ijust have an uneasy feeling that as with other incidents it was all ....''their fault, nothing to do with the Liverpool fans or people''. Make no mistake this perception of the massive chip on the shoulder that scousers love to portray is widespread in the UK. If you were at the match at Carow Road late last season you will have heard what many City fans think about that.   

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so we have one enquiry which basically sets out to clear the emergency services, then another which arguably sets out to clear the Liverpool football fans (arguements set out very well by billabong on the other thread) and your solution is that we have another? At some point we will have to draw a line under what was a terrible tragedy. No, evidence of police malpractice should not go unpunished or swept under the carpet, but scotland yard have their own internal investigation team to deal with this and report their fundings publically. Hillsborough is becoming a scab that keeps getting picked at, unless we stop it will never heal and politicians need to stop using it to score points.

 

 

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I would have more sympathy for their obvious pain when, and they haven''t as yet I believe, forced their club to apologise to the families of the 33 dead Italians, caused mainly by Liverpool''s hooligan fans at the Heysel Stadium.

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[quote user="ricky knight"]two wrongs dont make a right Wiz, lacking sympathy for the 96 because of Heysel is a ridiculous statement.[/quote]

That we can agree on, most likely none of the 96 were at Heysel, its like asking for an appology from every German you meet.

 

 

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[quote user="ricky knight"]two wrongs dont make a right Wiz, lacking sympathy for the 96 because of Heysel is a ridiculous statement.[/quote]

 

Maybe so Ricky, but thats how I feel I''m afraid.

 

No fan should die at a footy match but as yet I hear little sympathy for brother Italian supporters from the Liverpool end.

 

They want justice for the 96, fair enough, but so do the Italians for their dead, caused directly by those demanding justice today.

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[quote user="Wiz"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]two wrongs dont make a right Wiz, lacking sympathy for the 96 because of Heysel is a ridiculous statement.[/quote]

 

Maybe so Ricky, but thats how I feel I''m afraid.

 

No fan should die at a footy match but as yet I hear little sympathy for brother Italian supporters from the Liverpool end.

 

They want justice for the 96, fair enough, but so do the Italians for their dead, caused directly by those demanding justice today.

[/quote]They did up to a point,  a number of Liverpool fans where sent down for it.

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[quote user="ricky knight"]the Liverpool fans have been cleared of any blame in the report all this pissed up louts with no tix was part of the police BS. So in you opinion 96 lives and a cover up for 23 years should be swept under the carpet, the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. Thats why we cant have the death penalty in this country too much police BS over the years. How many people have died in the police hands and how many convictions none is the answer, its too big and too many lives lost to let go.They say the police are different nowadays, well if they are let them sift out the bad uns and nick them, might restore abit of confidence. Whatever the costs.[/quote]

Let''s just abolish the police and let the perpetually innocent Liverpool fans handle law and order.

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[quote user="Son Ova Gunn"]

so we have one enquiry which basically sets out to clear the emergency services, then another which arguably sets out to clear the Liverpool football fans (arguements set out very well by billabong on the other thread) and your solution is that we have another? At some point we will have to draw a line under what was a terrible tragedy. No, evidence of police malpractice should not go unpunished or swept under the carpet, but scotland yard have their own internal investigation team to deal with this and report their fundings publically. Hillsborough is becoming a scab that keeps getting picked at, unless we stop it will never heal and politicians need to stop using it to score points.

 

 

[/quote]And it will continually be picked at as long as the ingrained slur against the Liverpool fans on this incident continues.  It''s everywhere still.  Even with the fallout of the police cover-up.  People will still say, ''well the scousers must''ve been guilty of something'' and such like.

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But it''s not just this incident in isolation is it. Heysel and a collective history of antisocial behaviour by Liverpool fans means many will always view claims of complete blamelessness with suspiscion

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[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]But it''s not just this incident in isolation is it. Heysel and a collective history of antisocial behaviour by Liverpool fans means many will always view claims of complete blamelessness with suspiscion[/quote]That''s just yours and others inability to segregate each alleged incident individually.

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[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]the Liverpool fans have been cleared of any blame in the report all this pissed up louts with no tix was part of the police BS. So in you opinion 96 lives and a cover up for 23 years should be swept under the carpet, the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. Thats why we cant have the death penalty in this country too much police BS over the years. How many people have died in the police hands and how many convictions none is the answer, its too big and too many lives lost to let go.They say the police are different nowadays, well if they are let them sift out the bad uns and nick them, might restore abit of confidence. Whatever the costs.[/quote]

Let''s just abolish the police and let the perpetually innocent Liverpool fans handle law and order.

[/quote]

Another stupid statement by a poster i once deemed as sensible, So what are you saying our police should not been accountable, the police fxcked up that day get it in your head, 96 innocent people died because of bad decisions, 41 could have been saved then instead of holding their hands up tried to shift the blame even to the victims. The are good cops and bad cops and the bad cops should be whittled out.

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Having just read the 14 page summary of the report, and as others have pointed out this tells you all you really need to know, I''m struggling to see why further documents need to be released and what further insight or benefit they can provide.

The report is clear on the causes of the disaster (and they are a chain of many, not a single persons actions).

It is also clear that the actions of the management of South Yorkshire Police post the disaster, to apportion blame away from their force, was suspect at best, and most likely appears corrupt and worthy of prosecution of high level individuals within the organisation at the time.

You have to wonder whether people feel, and maybe the media is partly to blame, that because all information isn''t disclosed that something important is being hidden from them.

The report is comprehensive and appears to exonerate Liverpool supporters from any tangible blame in the events. It has already elicited and apology from both the current Government and current management of SYP. It seems almost inevitable that the actions of SYP''s management post the disaster will be further investigated and prosecutions may be made. I am at a loss what information people feel isn''t being disclosed which would have an outcome on the nearly 400 page reports findings.

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[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]But it''s not just this incident in isolation is it. Heysel and a collective history of antisocial behaviour by Liverpool fans means many will always view claims of complete blamelessness with suspiscion[/quote]

That''s just yours and others inability to segregate each alleged incident individually.
[/quote]

 

I doubt you really can segregate each alleged incident seperately. To do so would be unfair. The decisions were made at a time where authorities were instructed to treat football fans in a different way to the rest of society. To judge those actions against today''s values is wrong.

 

 

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[quote user="ricky knight"] How many people have died in the police hands and how many convictions none is the answer[/quote]1439 people have died as a direct result of police involvement since 1990, to date only the few listed below have resulted in an unlawful killing verdict, even fewer have resulted in a prosecution against the officers involved, the results well they defy the law of averages if nothing else.

2011
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Ian TomlinsonPolice custody or following contact with policeYes – officer was tried and acquitted of manslaughter in July 2012.YesUnlawful killingUK White
2006
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Mikey PowellPolice custody or following contact with policeYes – ten officers tried for various offences – charges dropped for

four officers at trial in June 2006, remainder acquitted August 2006
YesCritical narrativeUK Black
Robin GoodenoughPolice custody or following contact with policeYes – three officers tried for manslaughter in 2005 – jury failed to reach verdict; retried for assault in 2006- acquittedNoN/AUK White
2004
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Harry StanleyPolice ShootingNoYesUnlawful killing; overturned at Judicial Review, May 2005UK White
2003
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Roger SylvesterPolice custody or  following contact with policeNoYesUnlawful killing; quashed on a technicalityUK Black
2002
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Christopher AlderPolice custody or  following contact with police5 officers charged with manslaughter – trial collapsed 2002YesUnlawful killingBlack
2001
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
James AshleyPolice ShootingYes – trial halted 2001NoN/AUK White
1998
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Alton ManningPrisonNoyesUnlawful killingBlack
1997
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Ibrahima SeyPolice custody or  following contact with policeNoYesUnlawful killingBlack
David EwinPolice ShootingYes– acquitted at retrial 1997NoN/AUK White
1996
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Shiji LapitePolice custody or  following contact with policeNoYesUnlawful killingBlack
1995
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Richard O’BrienPolice custody or  following contact with policeYes – acquitted at trial 1999YesUnlawful killingIrish White
Joy GardnerPolice / ImmigrationYes – acquitted 1995NoN/ABlack
1993
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Leon PattersonPolice custody or  following contact with policeNoYesa) Unlawful killing quashed

b) new inquest 1996: “misadventure contributed to by neglect”
Black
Omasase LumumbaPrisonNoYesUnlawful killingBlack
1991
NameTypeProsecutionInquestVerdictEthnicity
Oliver PrycePolice custody or  following contact with policeNoYesUnlawful killingBlack

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[quote user="ricky knight"]the Liverpool fans have been cleared of any blame in the report all this pissed up louts with no tix was part of the police BS. So in you opinion 96 lives and a cover up for 23 years should be swept under the carpet, the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. Thats why we cant have the death penalty in this country too much police BS over the years. How many people have died in the police hands and how many convictions none is the answer, its too big and too many lives lost to let go.They say the police are different nowadays, well if they are let them sift out the bad uns and nick them, might restore abit of confidence. Whatever the costs.[/quote]

 

Indeed, and by an independent inquiry team that involved three Liverpudlians ...... LOL

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[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]the Liverpool fans have been cleared of any blame in the report all this pissed up louts with no tix was part of the police BS. So in you opinion 96 lives and a cover up for 23 years should be swept under the carpet, the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. Thats why we cant have the death penalty in this country too much police BS over the years. How many people have died in the police hands and how many convictions none is the answer, its too big and too many lives lost to let go.They say the police are different nowadays, well if they are let them sift out the bad uns and nick them, might restore abit of confidence. Whatever the costs.[/quote]

 

Indeed, and by an independent inquiry team that involved three Liverpudlians ...... LOL

[/quote]You shame yourself with such an ignorant statement and us too if anyone else reads your posts re Hillsborough.Just leave it now… you are way past becoming an embarrassment!

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[quote user="paul moy"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]the Liverpool fans have been cleared of any blame in the report all this pissed up louts with no tix was part of the police BS. So in you opinion 96 lives and a cover up for 23 years should be swept under the carpet, the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. Thats why we cant have the death penalty in this country too much police BS over the years. How many people have died in the police hands and how many convictions none is the answer, its too big and too many lives lost to let go.They say the police are different nowadays, well if they are let them sift out the bad uns and nick them, might restore abit of confidence. Whatever the costs.[/quote]

 

Indeed, and by an independent inquiry team that involved three Liverpudlians ...... LOL

[/quote]Instead of LOLing on a message why not get a bullhorn and stand outside Anfield?

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]But it''s not just this incident in isolation is it. Heysel and a collective history of antisocial behaviour by Liverpool fans means many will always view claims of complete blamelessness with suspiscion[/quote]That''s just yours and others inability to segregate each alleged incident individually. [/quote]

 

I doubt you really can segregate each alleged incident seperately. To do so would be unfair. The decisions were made at a time where authorities were instructed to treat football fans in a different way to the rest of society. To judge those actions against today''s values is wrong.

 

 

[/quote]You can and should, otherwise you get the ''ignorants'' on here coming out with b0llocks like Liverpool''s fans are guilty of something because they always are.

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[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="The Pinkun Role Model"][quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]But it''s not just this incident in isolation is it. Heysel and a collective history of antisocial behaviour by Liverpool fans means many will always view claims of complete blamelessness with suspiscion[/quote]

That''s just yours and others inability to segregate each alleged incident individually.
[/quote]

 

I doubt you really can segregate each alleged incident seperately. To do so would be unfair. The decisions were made at a time where authorities were instructed to treat football fans in a different way to the rest of society. To judge those actions against today''s values is wrong.

 

 

[/quote]

You can and should, otherwise you get the ''ignorants'' on here coming out with b0llocks like Liverpool''s fans are guilty of something because they always are.
[/quote]

You''ll never change that. I''m not a great lover of the loveable rogue scousers. Their record concerning football related violence over the years is well documented and can''t be denied. But it was still a minority of Liverpool supporters. And that doesn''t make the 96 guilty of anything. It''s because the 96 were deemed unworthy of their liberty to travel the country and support their team. The decisions on that day were based on the belief that those 96 were, like everybody else at Hillsborough, football hooligans. 

 

 

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[quote user="ricky knight"]........., the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. [/quote]

I stand to be corrected if I am wrong but in the Tomlinson case am i right in thinking that the other officers didn''t report the Policeman using his baton against Tomlinson? 

Good job there was a member of the public taking pictures but isn''t there a law against the public filming police officers?  

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]........., the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. [/quote]

I stand to be corrected if I am wrong but in the Tomlinson case am i right in thinking that the other officers didn''t report the Policeman using his baton against Tomlinson? 

Good job there was a member of the public taking pictures but isn''t there a law against the public filming police officers?[/quote]

Hmm! Sounds like a question for PC Unpromotable to me Tangy!

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]........., the police must be seen to be accountable if we live in a democracy. [/quote]

I stand to be corrected if I am wrong but in the Tomlinson case am i right in thinking that the other officers didn''t report the Policeman using his baton against Tomlinson? 

Good job there was a member of the public taking pictures but isn''t there a law against the public filming police officers?[/quote]

Hmm! Sounds like a question for PC Unpromotable to me Tangy!

[/quote]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19620627

 

 

 

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