It defies belief...

[Nuff Said 5,141]

Shyster - you can clearly see into the future as you know Tudur Jones and Stefanovic will be out injured most of the season, and that we won''t be signing anyone else.Why not buy a few winning lottery tickets and then you can buy the club and all our troubles will be over?

[Show Me What You Gooot! 0]

I think most fans have some kind of "reset" button which is pressed just after the season has finished.

When pressed their memories of what happens when you employ cheap inexperienced managers and bring in cheap/free, injury-prone cast-offs seem to completely disappear. These memories are replaced inexplicably by over-optimism and excitement about the season ahead.

Its depressing watching the same routine repeated every pre-season with so many fans getting their hopes up, only for them to be dashed 10 games into the season (with the team sitting 18th in the table) when it dawns on them that the "great" players we''ve signed actually aren''t great at all.

Doesn''t anyone else notice the reoccuring pattern anymore?

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Shyster"]...that there are people here saying they''re happy with how the squad is shaping up!  [:O][/quote]I don''t really understand how they defy belief in that to have black you also have to have white. Whilst you seem to believe that we are doing badly and are more likely to be doomed this season that to be looking at bouncing back there will always be those with totally opposite views to you.[quote user="Shyster"]Where''s the pace in Uncle Fester''s squad? The strong runners and wingers that run like a f*cking dart with the ball at their feet and actually deliver decent crosses.[/quote]First of all - did we have any of those last season - or the season before? We had Croft who could run fast with the ball at his feat but he wasn''t a traditional winger - he was more direct and his crossing reflected that. Hoolahan looked lost out wide unless he was given the freedom to cut in and pretty much do as he liked. However if Lappin stays we have someone who can cross. Wingers are indeed our weekest point at the moment although we do have some youngsters coming through who can do a job there.[quote user="Shyster"]Who is the the potential captain/leader and sage figurehead? Please don''t tell me it''s Mr Liability, Doherty, or the prefered current option Stefanović, who''ll unfortunately be out the best part of the season through injury.[/quote] Hasn''t Gill been a captain? Drury has been our captain - Spillane has been a captain at other levels. If Russell stays you have another who is possibly capable of being a captain and then the two who you deem to be not worthy in Doherty and Stefanovic. There seem to be a lot of ''ifs'' in your argument but you could be right with Stefanovic but you can''t bank on it. I would also suggest that if his injury wasn''t healing as quickly or as well as the club would have liked he would be released - the noises we have heard from the club is that he is doing well, why say that if he isn''t? Que more conspiracy theories. [quote user="Shyster"]And what''s the score on the Target-man front?[/quote] Pretty sure that we have been working at getting them in but things move slowly at the moment. That and target men are pretty sort after these days - especially half decent ones. Whoever we end up landing I susspect will have interested several clubs. You look at the sort of candidates out there in Grant Holt, Andy Bishop and Alan Lee none of them will be particularily cheap and will probably have quite a few clubs at least sniffing around them. It could also be that we have been waiting on negotiations of some of our players leaving. Clingan to Coventry for example - if you believe that they are interested it would seem that it has possibly stalled at the moment over how much they are willing to pay us for him.[quote user="Shyster"]It also defies belief that a club with our reported lowly resources have forked out a quarter of a million for a player who''s suffered a career threatening injury on the back of his being capped for Wales a couple of times - one, if Welsh, could play six decent games for f*cking Hitchin and get in the Welsh squad ffs!! I personally rate the more versatile Asa Hall of Luton than Tudur Jones - we need utility players/midfielders that can run all day and Hall at a similar fee to Jones would''ve been a much better acquisition.[/quote] Again I would agree that there is an element of risk with signing Tudur Jones but again I would hope that the medical would asses how well the injury has healed. Its also worth noting that it isnt such a career threatening injury as it used to be, although they say players can loose pace because of it Bellamy is testement that it is not always the case. Shearer had the same injury and it didnt stop him from maintaining his position as one of the prems top goalscorers. In the past it may have been an almost certain career ender but these days its more of a career shortener threat than a career ending one.[quote user="Shyster"]Tudur Jones (the Clingan replacement) is going to be sidelined more often than not, and when he does show he''s going to be languid in a team that is so far lacking any kind of leadership and pace whatsoever - and on the subject of pace, surely Uncle Fester should be looking at players such as Albert Adomah of Barnet who has pace in abundance and can play equally well on either wing and is good with either foot?[/quote] The Tudur Jones bit in this paragraph is based upon assumption and therefore is nothing short of fantasising. I could say that he will be our topscorer, will win player of the season and be voted league one player of the season and I would be no closer to the truth now, than you are. Its an assumption to attempt to back up your fear of what could happen so why not state it as a fear rather than what IS going to happen. As for the Adomah bit - he may well be a player we are looking at, if we don''t sign him then you have every right to come on here and say why didn''t we.I think it is a sound recomendation although there are smacks of hypocracy about it. You say that you are not at all buzzing with the new signings because of their lack of experience playing at a higher level or that people are getting carried away with what you would class as poor signings and you suggest Hall who is now a conference player and by some peoples opinions was outplayed by Spillane in some games. Adomah who has the attributes you suggest but who is hardly more proven, if at all, than Gill or Tudur Jones. Every single signing is a risk - some are bigger risks than others but there is always that element of possible failure, the player may simply not thrive in their surroundings at one club and then excel at another.[quote user="Shyster"]Are we to go through yet another season with these vital positions vacant?[/quote] I think it depends on what you call ''vital positions''. To me every position is vital but if I had to value any positions above any other I would have to go with CM, CB and CF. You need to have a strong spine/back for a team to be based around. You need reliable and consistant players that will give you a platform to build on week in week out. Your Gary Holts, Fleming, Iwan Roberts, Mackay''s of this world. The ones that are no fuss and do the hard work and win the ball and keep the opposition at bay. Battlers and winners.Although this is only my opinion ofcourse. If, or should I say when, Clingan goes we would need a replacement, if Russell is due to leave as well then we could be looking at loosing two players in highly influential position. Its logical therefore that they look into some new midfield players which they have done.[quote user="Shyster"]By all means bolster the numbers of the depleted squad with signings/freebies such as Gill, but the core of the team must be addressed in the first instance and squandering monies on high risk players the ilk of Tudur Jones is not the way to go.It''s all shaping up to being yet another season of the proverbial ''one step forward, two steps back'', because that is exactly the way Norwich City teams have been playing for the last five years.[/quote]Again you are assuming that Tudur Jones is high risk and his value. Again I would argue that any medical he has had will determine how bad his injury remains to be although he has played since and was offered a new contract and had other clubs interested in him. I doubt very much that he is ''crocked'' for good. At 24 I would also hope he has age on his side. You make it sound as if we pin all of our hopes on this one player who the majority of us have yet to see play. As for Gill - I doubt very much that he is here just to make up numbers - that is not Crook, Butterworth or Gunn''s style. We could have kept Killen here just to make up numbers but we didn''t - that says enough about it to me. I also find that it is more than slightly disrespectful to another player who many have not seen play and who has been labelled by many people from different clubs as a hard worker and a good pro and not to mention a good player of the ball.Perhaps where we have gone wrong in the last few years is giving up on our roots. By that I mean the things that Norwich always seem to do when we do well and that is invest in our youth and in up and coming players from the lower leagues. It could also be said that we have taken calculated gambles on player''s who''se careers look to be on the decline and a couple of veteran players but the core has always been the same.You look at the play off final season and the promotion season - how many players did we have with genuine premiership experience? I''m not talking about a couple of games here and there I am talking about players that have nailed down a position and played it for a number of consecutive games?People seem to think the answer is always in these big name players with the premierhip experience when the truth is they know that they are on the down and that Championship clubs will probably pay as much if not more for them to play than some prem teams.Huckerby is the only exception in recent years that I can think of although it is fair to say he was fed up with football and wanted somewhere that would take him in and give him regular football he had been paid the big bucks and he had come from humble roots - he never lost that and so it seems never got the arrogance of some of the prem players.

[. 0]

[quote user="Paint Me Yellow"]

I think most fans have some kind of "reset" button which is pressed just after the season has finished.

When pressed their memories of what happens when you employ cheap inexperienced managers and bring in cheap/free, injury-prone cast-offs seem to completely disappear. These memories are replaced inexplicably by over-optimism and excitement about the season ahead.

Its depressing watching the same routine repeated every pre-season with so many fans getting their hopes up, only for them to be dashed 10 games into the season (with the team sitting 18th in the table) when it dawns on them that the "great" players we''ve signed actually aren''t great at all.

Doesn''t anyone else notice the reoccuring pattern anymore?

[/quote]

Nice one.... and very succinct...

It really does explain why the "con" has carried on for so long and why the season ticket scam worked so well for Smith and her fellow bandits..

Sad.... but there ya go.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]Shyster,

What''s your opinion of the imminent signing of Nelson, who we''ve apparently beaten Championship team Scunthorpe Utd to sign ?
[/quote]

If thats true, it may be due to the fact that even as  a Division 3 (old money) club we can still offer more money than Scunthorpe

[Smudger 0]

As we have left it too late again it seems we are likely to be screwed for any decent target men Shyster.

If it is pace and goals that you are looking for though, then how about Gillingham''s Simeon Jackson???

I think we shoould scour the reserves of the two leagues above us for a target man, somebody young and fit with a view to a permanent move at a later date though.

As we have wasted money continually though the type of players we should of been in for we are now not likely to be able to afford, or somebody else will outbid us, or they are now playing in the Championship next season while we are not.

You realise how bad they have made things for us when we can''t even hoover up some of the best talent in this league upon relegation.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Smudger"]

As we have left it too late again it seems we are likely to be screwed for any decent target men Shyster.

If it is pace and goals that you are looking for though, then how about Gillingham''s Simeon Jackson???

I think we shoould scour the reserves of the two leagues above us for a target man, somebody young and fit with a view to a permanent move at a later date though.

As we have wasted money continually though the type of players we should of been in for we are now not likely to be able to afford, or somebody else will outbid us, or they are now playing in the Championship next season while we are not.

You realise how bad they have made things for us when we can''t even hoover up some of the best talent in this league upon relegation.

[/quote]I have to say Smudge that you are starting to make less and less sense.You criticise the club for getting loan players in that are no good from reserve teams and that have little or no experience instead of giving our own youngsters a go and then you suggest we find a young target man to loan from the reserves of a club in the two leagues above us.As if that was not enough you openly stated that you wanted the club to be relegated from the Championship as you believed it would be the end to all the wrong doing.What is no surprise to me is that instead of backing you claim and trying to use our predicament as a springboard for a successful campaign for change you spend all your time on here belittling the club.As for them spending money elsewhere badly - they havn''t so far this summer unless you know something we don''t? As for saying we are too late - which target man do you refer to? It is still very early days yet. I think more will happen next week when players return from holidays and when clubs assess who wants to stay who wants to go and what offers they have on the table for different players.Whilst I would agree that sigings in August often come too late to get a chance to bed down before the season starts we do still have more than a month before we should start to worry too much about it.

[Shyster 0]

Almost as immediately as I''d posted this thread earlier today I had to leave the house, so thanks for the many replies and comments - especially the ones that agree with mine. [:D]Seriously though, I will address & reply to peoples posts when I have a little less time on my hands. [;)]In the meanwhile, please feel free to discuss this topic among yourselves as I''m now off to the [url=http://new.pinkun.com/cs/forums/1726185/ShowPost.aspx]Delia Worshipping Religion[/url] thread to add my contribution there.

Thanks again.

[Yellow Submarine 0]

Idiot

[Rich T (no not the biscuit!!) 0]

What have we left too late, how many target men have been sold so far???

If we were a week away from the season starting I could understand where you''re coming from, but we haven''t even got to pre-season training!

[. 0]

[quote user="Shyster"]Almost as immediately as I''d posted this thread earlier today I had to leave the house, so thanks for the many replies and comments - especially the ones that agree with mine. [:D]

Seriously though, I will address & reply to peoples posts when I have a little less time on my hands. [;)]

In the meanwhile, please feel free to discuss this topic among yourselves as I''m now off to the [url=http://new.pinkun.com/cs/forums/1726185/ShowPost.aspx]Delia Worshipping Religion[/url] thread to add my contribution there.


Thanks again.[/quote]

Well....when you''re there you can post something really nice about my brilliant "Shamin-ism" gag......

I''m still laughing and I''ve heard it before.......

[lappinitup 629]

You probably didn''t get it the first time! [;)]

[Shyster 0]

JuanVelasco - [quote]The fastest player in our squad is the a Bryan Gunn signing. Why cant you just wait for Lee Croft and Wes Hoolohans replacements before slapping the keyboard like a spastic.[/quote]

Because the realists among us can see that the quality of players we require and can feasibly obtain will grow faster out of reach the longer we leave negotiations.The departures of Croft, Clingan, Marshall & possibly Hoolahan were foregone conclusions the day we were finally relegated, so why the delay in getting the pick of the bunch when Uncle Fester already had/has prior knowledge of future finances and what he can spend?As stressed in my initial post, I''m happy with freebies such as Gill and Nelson as squad fillers, but the essential acquisitions should be a priority and the longer we leave it the poorer in quality those essential signings will be - as witnessed in the last five seasons.With a totally depleted squad, it was always obvious that we were going to make freebie signings earlier than usual, so two before the transfer window opens is no great shakes - my argument/concern is that the absolute neccessities should be fulfilled first & foremost rather than squander monies we apparently have very little of on an injury prone central midfielder.Hopefully now you can see why I don''t want to wait to get two pacey wide men, two target-men and a sage midfielder with leadership skills ASAP rather than from the July scrapheap.

[Paul Lamberts Disciple 0]

[quote user="Paint Me Yellow"]

Doesn''t anyone else notice the recurring pattern anymore?

[/quote]No - part of being a "good fan" is to notice as little as possible.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]Shyster,What''s your opinion of the imminent signing of Nelson, who we''ve apparently beaten Championship team Scunthorpe Utd to sign ?[/quote]

If thats true, it may be due to the fact that even as  a Division 3 (old money) club we can still offer more money than Scunthorpe

[/quote]Following your point to its logical conclusion, we should be able to pay well for this division, and stand a good chance of putting together a good squad ?  Is this a note of positivity Tangy ?

[Barclay_Boy 0]

it does defy belief that some of our fans can be so stupid, to be such mugs that they are so easily taken in. it would be hilarious if it wasn''t so tragic.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Barclay_Boy"]it does defy belief that some of our fans can be so stupid, to be such mugs that they are so easily taken in. it would be hilarious if it wasn''t so tragic.[/quote]At least with the pre-season there is hope.  Even if it''s misguided, without hope you''d just end up being a miserable bugger all the time, eh Barclay_Boy...

[Mello Yello 2,294]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Barclay_Boy"]it does defy belief that some of our fans can be so stupid, to be such mugs that they are so easily taken in. it would be hilarious if it wasn''t so tragic.[/quote]

At least with the pre-season there is hope.  Even if it''s misguided, without hope you''d just end up being a miserable bugger all the time, eh Barclay_Boy...
[/quote]

Yeah....as long as MPs make silly mistakes, but then apologise for getting found out....We should just button our lips, accept what they''ve done and agree that they''ve been a bit silly. But then still allow those ''Honourables'' to carry on with their sterling work....

But if ''we the joe public'' were responsible for similar silly mistakes? Taxman, Justiceman and Vatman - cometh to the door.....

Hey, prison food ain''t all that bad....is it? 

 

[Barclay_Boy 0]

sorry Blah as long as we have Delia then there is no hope.... that''s not being miserable, it''s called being awake

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Barclay_Boy"]it does defy belief that some of our fans can be so stupid, to be such mugs that they are so easily taken in. it would be hilarious if it wasn''t so tragic.[/quote]At least with the pre-season there is hope.  Even if it''s misguided, without hope you''d just end up being a miserable bugger all the time, eh Barclay_Boy...[/quote]

Yeah....as long as MPs make silly mistakes, but then apologise for getting found out....We should just button our lips, accept what they''ve done and agree that they''ve been a bit silly. But then still allow those ''Honourables'' to carry on with their sterling work....

But if ''we the joe public'' were responsible for similar silly mistakes? Taxman, Justiceman and Vatman - cometh to the door.....

Hey, prison food ain''t all that bad....is it? 

[/quote]I agree with your analysis of MPs, but what has this got to do with hopes or despair for the pre-season ?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Barclay_Boy"]sorry Blah as long as we have Delia then there is no hope.... that''s not being miserable, it''s called being awake[/quote]Then what to do ?  Protest ?  Stay away ?  Beg other millionaires to become involved ?There is always hope.

[Mello Yello 2,294]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Barclay_Boy"]it does defy belief that some of our fans can be so stupid, to be such mugs that they are so easily taken in. it would be hilarious if it wasn''t so tragic.[/quote]

At least with the pre-season there is hope.  Even if it''s misguided, without hope you''d just end up being a miserable bugger all the time, eh Barclay_Boy...
[/quote]

Yeah....as long as MPs make silly mistakes, but then apologise for getting found out....We should just button our lips, accept what they''ve done and agree that they''ve been a bit silly. But then still allow those ''Honourables'' to carry on with their sterling work....

But if ''we the joe public'' were responsible for similar silly mistakes? Taxman, Justiceman and Vatman - cometh to the door.....

Hey, prison food ain''t all that bad....is it? 

[/quote]

I agree with your analysis of MPs, but what has this got to do with hopes or despair for the pre-season ?
[/quote]

Because we just accept everything - with a squeak and a whimper....I don''t wish to see another abject failure of a season with the two major-shareholders still in control....They just haven''t a bloody clue.

Amateurish door slammin'' press conferences sort of give it away...(unless it''s the norm and standard for the 3rd Division press conferences?)... 

[ur just a man in a jacket 0]

shyster -  i made this point yesterday and got shot down!!

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Barclay_Boy"]it does defy belief that some of our fans can be so stupid, to be such mugs that they are so easily taken in. it would be hilarious if it wasn''t so tragic.[/quote]At least with the pre-season there is hope.  Even if it''s misguided, without hope you''d just end up being a miserable bugger all the time, eh Barclay_Boy...[/quote]

Yeah....as long as MPs make silly mistakes, but then apologise for getting found out....We should just button our lips, accept what they''ve done and agree that they''ve been a bit silly. But then still allow those ''Honourables'' to carry on with their sterling work....

But if ''we the joe public'' were responsible for similar silly mistakes? Taxman, Justiceman and Vatman - cometh to the door.....

Hey, prison food ain''t all that bad....is it? 

[/quote]I agree with your analysis of MPs, but what has this got to do with hopes or despair for the pre-season ?[/quote]

Because we just accept everything - with a squeak and a whimper....I don''t wish to see another abject failure of a season with the two major-shareholders still in control....They just haven''t a bloody clue.

Amateurish door slammin'' press conferences sort of give it away...(unless it''s the norm and standard for the 3rd Division press conferences?)... 

[/quote]What''s the alternative ?  When are you manning the barricades ?  As long as Gunn and Butterworth can assemble the best league 1 players Deals and Mickeys'' (and the other Mickeys'') money can give us, then we might be able to get promoted anyway ?Oh, and another thing - How much do you think Mo Fayed knows about running a football club ?  Not very fuggin'' much is my guess.  Bet he used to wave his scarf around and let McNally get on with it.

[Mello Yello 2,294]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Barclay_Boy"]it does defy belief that some of our fans can be so stupid, to be such mugs that they are so easily taken in. it would be hilarious if it wasn''t so tragic.[/quote]

At least with the pre-season there is hope.  Even if it''s misguided, without hope you''d just end up being a miserable bugger all the time, eh Barclay_Boy...
[/quote]

Yeah....as long as MPs make silly mistakes, but then apologise for getting found out....We should just button our lips, accept what they''ve done and agree that they''ve been a bit silly. But then still allow those ''Honourables'' to carry on with their sterling work....

But if ''we the joe public'' were responsible for similar silly mistakes? Taxman, Justiceman and Vatman - cometh to the door.....

Hey, prison food ain''t all that bad....is it? 

[/quote]

I agree with your analysis of MPs, but what has this got to do with hopes or despair for the pre-season ?
[/quote]

Because we just accept everything - with a squeak and a whimper....I don''t wish to see another abject failure of a season with the two major-shareholders still in control....They just haven''t a bloody clue.

Amateurish door slammin'' press conferences sort of give it away...(unless it''s the norm and standard for the 3rd Division press conferences?)... 

[/quote]

What''s the alternative ?  When are you manning the barricades ?  As long as Gunn and Butterworth can assemble the best league 1 players Deals and Mickeys'' (and the other Mickeys'') money can give us, then we might be able to get promoted anyway ?

Oh, and another thing - How much do you think Mo Fayed knows about running a football club ?  Not very fuggin'' much is my guess.  Bet he used to wave his scarf around and let McNally get on with it.
[/quote]

Why''s Super Mac really ''downsized'' to Cafe Carra?.....I thought he''d ''go large'' at the ''Ar$e''?....

Has he also been recruited to maybe revitalise and rejuvinate the major-shareholding duo''s business interests?.....

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]

Why''s Super Mac really ''downsized'' to Cafe Carra?.....I thought he''d ''go large'' at the ''Ar$e''?....

Has he also been recruited to maybe revitalise and rejuvinate the major-shareholding duo''s business interests?.....[/quote]

On another thread, which wasn''t about Smudger, LQ mentioned that one of Arsenals'' big new shareholder fellas wanted to bring his own man in for the job, so McNally didn''t get it.

As for point 2, of course he has been brought in to make the off-pitch stuff make more money, which ends up going into the playing budget - he has said as much in the interviews he has given, and the doubling of off-field income in 4 seasons at Celtic suggests that he is capable of doing this for us.

[|BA 0]

[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]So disastrous we won promotion.[/quote]

Must admit I thought Flemming was captain that year - beside the point, whats promotion got to do with being a good captain - we played rubbish football.

[Mello Yello 2,294]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]

Why''s Super Mac really ''downsized'' to Cafe Carra?.....I thought he''d ''go large'' at the ''Ar$e''?....

Has he also been recruited to maybe revitalise and rejuvinate the major-shareholding duo''s business interests?.....[/quote]

On another thread, which wasn''t about Smudger, LQ mentioned that one of Arsenals'' big new shareholder fellas wanted to bring his own man in for the job, so McNally didn''t get it.

As for point 2, of course he has been brought in to make the off-pitch stuff make more money, which ends up going into the playing budget - he has said as much in the interviews he has given, and the doubling of off-field income in 4 seasons at Celtic suggests that he is capable of doing this for us.

[/quote]

Which ends up going into the playing budget?......Like ''Road Tax'' really goes into paying for the roads?

[Graham Humphrey 13]

[quote user="IBA"][quote user="Graham Humphrey"]So disastrous we won promotion.[/quote] Must admit I thought Flemming was captain that year - beside the point, whats promotion got to do with being a good captain - we played rubbish football.[/quote]

Well he wasn''t a disaster was he, that''s what you said. Granted he is not exactly a natural captain.

And you must be on a wind-up, surely - how many times have you come out with this "we played rubbish football", er, rubbish? And, come to that, how''s that relevant to being a good captain or not?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]

Why''s Super Mac really ''downsized'' to Cafe Carra?.....I thought he''d ''go large'' at the ''Ar$e''?....

Has he also been recruited to maybe revitalise and rejuvinate the major-shareholding duo''s business interests?.....[/quote]

On another thread, which wasn''t about Smudger, LQ mentioned that one of Arsenals'' big new shareholder fellas wanted to bring his own man in for the job, so McNally didn''t get it.

As for point 2, of course he has been brought in to make the off-pitch stuff make more money, which ends up going into the playing budget - he has said as much in the interviews he has given, and the doubling of off-field income in 4 seasons at Celtic suggests that he is capable of doing this for us.

[/quote]

Which ends up going into the playing budget?......Like ''Road Tax'' really goes into paying for the roads?

[/quote]Well if it actually did make much money, where else would it go ?  I thought the problem was that none of the off-pitch stuff was making that much money at the minute.