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Sports Desk - Matt

Should Bryan Gunn be given the manager's job full-time? Discuss

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[quote user="Pablos pubic perm"][quote user="Sports Desk - Matt"][quote user="Pablos pubic perm"][quote user="Sports Desk - Matt"]

I''ve got to be impartial I''m afraid. But be advised I''m looking to use any comments in an article tomorrow.

[/quote]

Even if I wrote the most eloquent words outlining the reasons for either retaining or dismissing Bryan''s services as manager, I think my username would preclude me from being quoted.

[/quote]

That''s a big boast. Let''s see the quality of the copy and I''ll be the judge.

[/quote]

It''s not a big boast at all. I think the clue is in: "EVEN IF I wrote". The point I was trying to make (and I genuinely had no intention of being boastful, but sadly what ever you write anywhere is always open to misinterpretation, much more so than the spoken word) was that does a slightly rude username effect Archant''s decision to publish? If you liked somebody''s copy but not the username; would you attribute those words to another name, publish the "offending" name with no amendment whatsoever, or leave it unattributed? I only ask because I have never seen quotes from anybody with a rude username printed in Archant papers.

[/quote]

We wouldn''t print your username as it is. If you want to comment then go ahead, and we''ll print it under any name you want as long as it''s not offensive.

 

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Yeah would agree we need programme sellers keep them at the club at least!!

No im joking, i think we should, the have stepped up to quickly, and need to do there time back room, maybe resevres or youngsters, i think there time will come good, just not now!

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Here''s what I wrote in another, similar, thread not too long ago - slightly edited to reflect the fact we probably won''t stay up now:

It will be disastrous if Gunn is still in charge next season. He has shown what he knows about football management in his time in charge, namely nothing. If Plan A doesn''t work, there is no Plan B and that''s a massive problem - his tactics and substitutions are very questionable most of the time, and it always seems to take us a good 10-15 minutes to get going in the second half. Just "bleeding yellow and green" is never enough; we need a "proper" manager who can work on a budget and can help us move forward in the long-term. Someone like Jim Gannon or Mark Robins, who have only managed at lower levels but can do wonders on a small budget and will want to prove themselves at a higher-profile club where there will certainly be more pressure to do well in League One, will do very nicely.

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[quote user="Soldier on"]

A definite NO.

New manager is needed.  Perhaps Tilson who the board have stubbornly avoided at managerial selections so far.

Interesting though that Gunn has already been quoted saying he looks forward to pre season games.  Doncaster has yet to refute claims that he has already been appointed.  It seems that the board may reward failure again and give Gunn a full term contract - cheap options "yes man etc.

Can we have a piece of journalism that puts our under achieving board of directors in the firing line for a change.  It is they that have overseen the failings that have gone on at this club.

[/quote]This is true. After both Worthington and Grant were removed Tilson was issuing "come and get me!" pleas through the press but our board ignored them on both occasions.I would like to know the reasons why.

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good god NO.and Ian sideways Crook can get on the first plane back to oz.i would like to see Paul Ince given the job.But the main problem is the board we need someoneat the top  who knows about football.

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[quote user="Sports Desk - Matt"][quote user="Pablos pubic perm"][quote user="Sports Desk - Matt"][quote user="Pablos pubic perm"][quote user="Sports Desk - Matt"]

I''ve got to be impartial I''m afraid. But be advised I''m looking to use any comments in an article tomorrow.

[/quote]

Even if I wrote the most eloquent words outlining the reasons for either retaining or dismissing Bryan''s services as manager, I think my username would preclude me from being quoted.

[/quote]

That''s a big boast. Let''s see the quality of the copy and I''ll be the judge.

[/quote]

It''s not a big boast at all. I think the clue is in: "EVEN IF I wrote". The point I was trying to make (and I genuinely had no intention of being boastful, but sadly what ever you write anywhere is always open to misinterpretation, much more so than the spoken word) was that does a slightly rude username effect Archant''s decision to publish? If you liked somebody''s copy but not the username; would you attribute those words to another name, publish the "offending" name with no amendment whatsoever, or leave it unattributed? I only ask because I have never seen quotes from anybody with a rude username printed in Archant papers.

[/quote]

We wouldn''t print your username as it is. If you want to comment then go ahead, and we''ll print it under any name you want as long as it''s not offensive.

 

[/quote]

Thanks for the reply, Matt. To be honest, I''m not too bothered about seeing "my words of wisdom" in print, although it is quite a nice little boost to one''s ego. I have had the honour of being published in the EDP and Pink ''Un newspaper on two or three occasions in the past, so I''m not a complete virgin when it comes to citizen-journalism.

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A big fat yes from me - Brian Gunn has the credentials to be a very good manager - The ship was sinking fast when he took over, the squad was very poor and some abysmal refereeing decisions have added the finishing touches. Disappointing results maybe? but scratch the surface a little deeper, look at the man not the  results and you will see Brian Gunn has what it takes.

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no he shouldn''t but he probably will.

the board wont be able to attract a manager of sufficient caliber to take us up next season and will therefore be forced into going with what they have got.

I''m hoping Gunny learns quickly from what has happened this season and can better himself next year. we wil need it!

jas :)

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You what?????? boubeqo what have you been watching, he has had 19 games incharge only winning 5..... do the maths mate!! they dont lye!

Ive stratched the sufface and still i have no idea were you are coming from! we have another peter grant on our hands! god help us!

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

no he shouldn''t but he probably will.

the board wont be able to attract a manager of sufficient caliber to take us up next season and will therefore be forced into going with what they have got.

I''m hoping Gunny learns quickly from what has happened this season and can better himself next year. we wil need it!

jas :)

[/quote]

Why not?

The problem lies at the top and unless that changes we could have Alex Fergueson and still struggle. We have few senior players and the best of those will be leaving UNLESS they can see the prospect of significant investment in the team. We either need to find half a dozen hardened pros for next year or build from scatch.

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I think the potential for Gunny to do a good job for us next season is there, it was undoubtably a poor decision by our board to give Gunn the job in January though, we should have appointed someone with experience and promoted Gunn to his assistant and let him learn from him a bit as Gunn''s lack of expierience has cos us points in the games against S''oton and Sheff Wed games we could and should have won in my opinion.

So for me yes, i think Gunny deserves the chance to get us straight back up, it''s unfortunate for him though that many people now feel he doesn''t due to our inadequate board appointing him at the completely wrong time when a wiser head was needed. Gunn''s had to learn his trade in the exact kind of environment a manager never should have to... in a religation battle, and for me has done a decent job when you take all the circumstances into account. His signings have been good, except Carney, he finally got Wes Hoolahan looking like the player he was at Blackpool and in my honest opinion we''d be safe by now if Hoolahan hadn''t gotten injured.

At the end of the day the board have let us down, not Gunn so let''s give him a go.

 

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No - he absolutely should not. Whether we stay up or go down, we have massive problems. None of them are Gunny''s fault, but a club with such difficulties desperately needs a proven manager with a genuine track record to take charge, stabilise it and begin shovelling through the mess created over many years of decline and boardroom incompetence. It would be absolutely ridiculous to expect a man with no prior experience even in coaching, let alone management to perform such a massively difficult task.

Since he got the job, we''ve certainly been a happier club, but the team has continued to flounder. There''s maybe been a tiny improvement overall, but nothing significant: nothing that suggests we''ve struck gold, or he''s capable of leading us to success. That''s no reflection on him: I''ll always be grateful to Bryan for having the balls to put his neck on the line in the first place. But if we stay up, the club will doubtless ignore all the concerns, claim a fresh start, then dismiss criticisms as made "in hindsight" if it goes wrong next season; and if we go down, it would be indefensible - utterly indefensible - to entrust the team''s fortunes in a hellishly difficult division to get out of (especially for a footballing side) to a novice. It would be the most disgraceful decision the board had ever taken - and with their record, that is truly saying something.

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The answer has to be no and I am amazed that anyone thinks otherwise.

His appointment was a terrible error, it looked so at the time, and it is being proved so now. There were only two possible reasons for his appointment:

1) the board genuinely felt that a 4-0 win over Barnsley proved he was a great manager. If this is the reason then they are idiots and have no place at this fine club.

2) We no longer have enough money to employ a proper manager on a reasonably long-term contract. The manager is the most important employee at the club, and if we don''t have the cash to employ the right man, then the board have to take responsibility for that.

Why is Gunn not the right man? Well, he has no discernible experience of management or coaching at any level. That might be all right in a club which is well-run and destined for a few seasons of mid-table mediocrity where a novice could learn his trade. But it emphatically is not all right in a relegation battle, or following relegation. This season Gunn took about six games to get anything right, in which time we''d thrown away a 2-0 lead against Southampton and lost or drawn the very winnable home games against Coventry and Burnley which would have kept us up. Even his supposedly strongest suit has been a let-down. We should be able to expect that a Gunn NCFC side would play with unending passion, but only against Cardiff has that really been in evidence. In the big games against Ipswich and Reading there was plenty of effort, but in both games any real commitment was too easily erased by the superiority of the opposition.

His appalling use of substitutes has been mentioned by others on this thread. I would also highlight his ridiculous decision to stick Gow out on the wing when he looked a serious threat playing off Mooney or Lee.

Boothroyd would have kept us up.

Gunny is probably my all-time City hero, and it pains me to describe in the way I have done. But his appointment was the final straw for me as far as the board is concerned. That''s where the blame should lie, and where Archant''s journalism should be directed.

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No no no. As many others have said, we need someone with proven tactical and man-management skill at the level and budget we will be operating with. That also rules out Ince. It has to be Boothroyd, Robins, Tilson or the like.

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I can understand why they went for team Gunn - after getting their fingers burnt with the outsider Roeder, it looks like an attempt to assemble a team which will try to provide what the boot rooms of the past had - Brown, Stringer, Walker, etc - a line of capable coaches who graduated to the top job when the boss moved on.As others have said though, we don''t seem to be able to change matches from the bench.  If you haven''t got that you''re going to lose points.

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[quote user="Sports Desk - Matt"] Should Bryan Gunn be given the manager''s job full-time? Discuss.[/quote]

There should be no decision until (a) we see if Smith and her dream team leave for Suffolk....or (b) whether we actually go down. The latter is still not a certainty until we see what Barnsley do.

In my view it''s not a question to be asked at this stage.

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[quote user="Jim Kent"]I think there has been too many managerial changes at NCFC. Bryan Gunn hasn''t been great, but he is still learning. It''s is vital we keep the likes of Crook and Butterworth at the club and I can''t see that happening if Bryan leaves. Therefore, my compromise would be give Bryan six months into the new season. And if he is doing the job then a change is needed. I am minded another scot called Alex Ferguson, had a rough start at Man United. The board were brave and kept the faith and now look where he is. Bottom line is I think Bryan deserves a bit more time.[/quote]

I agree.  Except the bit about Mark Robins.  Whilst I don''t have anything against Robins, I feel that if Gunn can''t pull it off next season, one of his backroom staff (butters, crook - NOT deehan!) should be given the chance.  I still maintain the damage was done YEARS before he got the job, and his record since he got the job has been AT WORST mediocre, and at best quite respectable.

I don''t really believe this rubbish about Gunn lacking tactical nous either, as quite simply; football is a simple game, you really don''t need to be a genius to succeed in it...

However, there are a few question marks for me regarding his ability to spot talent.  Whilst some of his signings have impressed, more have flopped - especially considering his time as head scout for Roeder as well.

 

 

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For me its a yes, the Board have shown no ambition up to now so changing him could just lead to a worse choice! What we really need is the end of Delia! We need (dare I say!) Peter Cullum and a new era at Norwich City. He does still have plenty of money and he does still care, we just need the Cook to decide to play ball this time! Then, once we can afford to have a decent transfer budget, we can start to think about who we would like to spend it!

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[quote user="WiMMiT"]

 

I don''t really believe this rubbish about Gunn lacking tactical nous either, as quite simply; football is a simple game, you really don''t need to be a genius to succeed in it...

 

[/quote]

So why do you think quality managers are so highly prized within the game? Why do other clubs go for managers with proven track records? When applying for a job, do you honestly believe someone''s prior experience is irrelevant? In which case, why do we bother with CVs? If it''s so simple, anyone could do it - but they can''t. It''s a massively tough job.

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I''m aware he has little experience, but that doesn''t automatically translate to a lack of tactical knowledge.

So far, so mediocre.  Which to be honest, is better than we''ve had with Grant, and Roeder...

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The board gambled on the hope that by appointing a team of former City greats the players and the fans would be inspired to raise the bar. While there is no doubt that the fans have generally intensified their efforts since January, the sad fact is that the players, after a very brief improvement have largely continued to serve up the same sort of insipid efforts that we "enjoyed" under Roeder.While I  believe that the board acted way too late in appointing ANY new manager with the transfer window 10 days from closing, the simple fact is that in 19 games, which started with City outside the drop zone, there has been no discernible improvement.

Good managers inspire players and influence games when things are not going well, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Bryan and his team have done so at any point. One can quote his lack of experience and scope for improvement, but we are already on the brink of League One as a result of this experiment and the club simply cannot afford to let Bryan Gunn learn on the job while we fail to bounce straight back next season. City have a wonderful, loyal fanbase, but surely the board must realise that change has to come now, before that loyalty is completely eroded.

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I dont really blame Gunn and co for this mess. The board failed to back him in the january transfer window in our most important transfer session in the clubs history. How did they back him? 20k for Cody McDonald and a few loanees. This board have got us in this mess by overvaluing the club. I dont think you can really judge Gunn as the board havent given him backing to get in the players he wanted. I would like to see Paul Ince, Jim Gannon or Mark Robins in charge next season.

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[quote user="Jim Kent"]I think there has been too many managerial changes at NCFC. Bryan Gunn hasn''t been great, but he is still learning. It''s is vital we keep the likes of Crook and Butterworth at the club and I can''t see that happening if Bryan leaves. Therefore, my compromise would be give Bryan six months into the new season. And if he is doing the job then a change is needed. If a change is decided on then my choice would be Mark Robins. I am minded another scot called Alex Ferguson, had a rough start at Man United. The board were brave and kept the faith and now look where he is. Bottom line is I think Bryan deserves a bit more time.[/quote]

Stability for its own sake is not a reason to keep someone on who isn''t qualified for the position. If we''re in the Championship, he''ll be up against managers of the experience and track record of Tony Mowbray, Dave Jones, Roy Keane, Gary Johnson, Brian Laws and Billy Davies. If we go down, he''ll be up against the likes of Jim Gannon, Steve Tilson and possibly Simon Grayson. All of whom have a significant head start on him; all of whom have already proved they can do it. He simply hasn''t. Meanwhile, Alex Ferguson had already done fantastically with St Mirren before going on to win the Scottish title three times with Aberdeen (Aberdeen!!) as well as, just as incredibly, the European Cup Winners'' Cup, beating Bayern Munich and Real Madrid en route. And Bryan Gunn has done...?

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[quote user="WiMMiT"]

I''m aware he has little experience, but that doesn''t automatically translate to a lack of tactical knowledge.

So far, so mediocre.  Which to be honest, is better than we''ve had with Grant, and Roeder...

[/quote]

Um - so what? Is damning someone with faint praise as good as we can do now?

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No. he is a legend and there will hopefully always be a place for him at Carrow Road but his appointment is a joke and my fears have been borne out. We need a proper manager who can take the club forward. I read earlier today that Mark Robins is favourite to replace Joe Royle when he retires at Oldham in the summer. IMHO we could do a lot worse than line Robins up to take over at CR!

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]No. he is a legend and there will hopefully always be a place for him at Carrow Road but his appointment is a joke and my fears have been borne out. We need a proper manager who can take the club forward. I read earlier today that Mark Robins is favourite to replace Joe Royle when he retires at Oldham in the summer. IMHO we could do a lot worse than line Robins up to take over at CR![/quote]

If we go down, I agree.

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[quote user="thebigfeller"]

[quote user="Jim Kent"]I think there has been too many managerial changes at NCFC. Bryan Gunn hasn''t been great, but he is still learning. It''s is vital we keep the likes of Crook and Butterworth at the club and I can''t see that happening if Bryan leaves. Therefore, my compromise would be give Bryan six months into the new season. And if he is doing the job then a change is needed. If a change is decided on then my choice would be Mark Robins. I am minded another scot called Alex Ferguson, had a rough start at Man United. The board were brave and kept the faith and now look where he is. Bottom line is I think Bryan deserves a bit more time.[/quote]

Stability for its own sake is not a reason to keep someone on who isn''t qualified for the position. If we''re in the Championship, he''ll be up against managers of the experience and track record of Tony Mowbray, Dave Jones, Roy Keane, Gary Johnson, Brian Laws and Billy Davies. If we go down, he''ll be up against the likes of Jim Gannon, Steve Tilson and possibly Simon Grayson. All of whom have a significant head start on him; all of whom have already proved they can do it. He simply hasn''t. Meanwhile, Alex Ferguson had already done fantastically with St Mirren before going on to win the Scottish title three times with Aberdeen (Aberdeen!!) as well as, just as incredibly, the European Cup Winners'' Cup, beating Bayern Munich and Real Madrid en route. And Bryan Gunn has done...?

[/quote]

Stability for its own sake is not reason in itself but neither is so called experience. The club currently stands at its lowest point since the Chase days and clearly needs root and branch reform. At the same time the team needs managing and some form of continuity is now clearly required. The board have proven themselves singularly unable to either select managerial talent or give them the tools for the job and are there any reasons to suggest that this time would be different.

Of all the names above none would come with a copper bottomed guarantee that they could surpass team Gunn. None of Gannon, Tilson or Grayson have records that cry out for inclusion on any short list - unless bobbing teams around the lower leagues is the criteria. Mowbray, Jones, Johnson and Davies all had money to spend on which they built their repertations. Laws? Kept Wednesday in the division which would take now but really what does experience mean. Keane spent £60m on a very average Sunderland team so what kind of mediocrity will he bring to Town on much less.

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