What if Southampton cannot complete their fixtures

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

This is a very seperate issue to the 10 points the Saints may or may not lose. The administrators seem to have serious concerns that the club will not last until the end of the season. Is there precedent for this? If it did happen then logically with a number of crucial games to go all the Southampton games would have to be struck from the record this season. Given that we only took 1 point from them in 2 games it should not worry us too much but it could have an impact on the table top to bottom. Out of interest what points did the bottom 6 clubs get against the saints this season to date?

[Grando 336]

Straws and clutching at springs to mind!

[Pete Raven 276]

4 points lost: Blackpool and Plymouth
3 points lost: Doncaster, Forest and Watford
1 point lost: Barnsley, Charlton, Derby and Norwich

Doncaster 46
Derby 46
Watford 44
Blackpool 43
Barnsley 43
Norwich 42
Plymouth 39
--------------
Forest 38
Charlton 28

[rjwc22 0]

If a club goes into administration it is deemed to have lost its league membership and so cannot compete in the league.  Not sure if this means they go back and take away all relevant points but cannot see what else they can do.

Forest certainly beat them away.

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

No I dont think so. I fully agree that we need to concentrate on winning games and not rely on other clubs but the fact is that the clubs administrators not me in a press conference today have stated that the club may not be able to survive until the end of the season. Should this happen something would have to be done regarding the saints fixtures. Plymouth and Forest would be the biggest losers if the results were cancelled. Plymouth have taken 4 points from 2 fixtures against southampton. Forest won at home and were due to play at Southampton on the last day of the season. Barnsley and ourselves have only taken apoint each from the 2 fixtures

[rjwc22 0]

[quote user="Yorkshire Canary"]No I dont think so. I fully agree that we need to concentrate on winning games and not rely on other clubs but the fact is that the clubs administrators not me in a press conference today have stated that the club may not be able to survive until the end of the season. Should this happen something would have to be done regarding the saints fixtures. Plymouth and Forest would be the biggest losers if the results were cancelled. Plymouth have taken 4 points from 2 fixtures against southampton. Forest won at home and were due to play at Southampton on the last day of the season. Barnsley and ourselves have only taken apoint each from the 2 fixtures[/quote]

Forest actually already beat them at St Marys and would no doubt be hoping for 3 more points at the city ground - shame...

[spudgfsh 0]

If a team goes into liquidation then they are considered to be in serious breach of the rules and have their "share" taken away.  this then means whether or not they can reform they lose their league status. 

If a club enters administration then the original company still exists and the club can be sold to a different company/person and their league "share" will follow the club.

Liquidation is a very long way off unless NU/barclays decide they want their money back which could force it.  but that would not be in their interests as they wouldn''t get all of their money back anyway.

[Camuldonum 0]

The Times are currently suggesting that Norwich Union may be prepared to write off some of the Southampton debt.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/football_league/article6018444.ece

[Jim Smith 2,610]

[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

4 points lost: Blackpool and Plymouth
3 points lost: Doncaster, Forest and Watford
1 point lost: Barnsley, Charlton, Derby and Norwich

Doncaster 46
Derby 46
Watford 44
Blackpool 43
Barnsley 43
Norwich 42
--------------
Plymouth 39
Forest 38
Charlton 28

[/quote]

 

Surely this is the wrong way around? We dropped 4 points to Saints this season?

It won''t happen anyway but presumably in that scenario all clubs would be awarded 6 points for the 2 games v Saints.

 

[ncfcstar 342]

[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

4 points lost: Blackpool and Plymouth3 points lost: Doncaster, Forest and Watford1 point lost: Barnsley, Charlton, Derby and NorwichDoncaster 46Derby 46Watford 44Blackpool 43Barnsley 43Norwich 42--------------Plymouth 39Forest 38Charlton 28

[/quote]

 

Surely this is the wrong way around? We dropped 4 points to Saints this season?

It won''t happen anyway but presumably in that scenario all clubs would be awarded 6 points for the 2 games v Saints.

 

[/quote]I think it means they will lose 4 points it So''ton go into liquidation.Also rewarding 6 points to everyone is exactly the same as removing everyone''s points that have been gained.

[Pete Raven 276]

[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

4 points lost: Blackpool and Plymouth
3 points lost: Doncaster, Forest and Watford
1 point lost: Barnsley, Charlton, Derby and Norwich

Doncaster 46
Derby 46
Watford 44
Blackpool 43
Barnsley 43
Norwich 42
--------------
Plymouth 39
Forest 38
Charlton 28

[/quote]

 

Surely this is the wrong way around? We dropped 4 points to Saints this season?

It won''t happen anyway but presumably in that scenario all clubs would be awarded 6 points for the 2 games v Saints.

 

[/quote]

We got 1 point from Southampton this season so would lose that....

[spudgfsh 0]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]

It won''t happen anyway but presumably in that scenario all clubs would be awarded 6 points for the 2 games v Saints.[/quote]

The wat it would work is the league would declare all 46 matches involving southampton void and the tables would be adjusted accordingly.

in this unlikely scenario they would probably only have two relegation places in the championship (three in league 1 and 1 in league 2) to keep the number of teams correct for the following season.  in that case we''d have a 4 point gap over forest

[Jim Smith 2,610]

[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"][quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

4 points lost: Blackpool and Plymouth
3 points lost: Doncaster, Forest and Watford
1 point lost: Barnsley, Charlton, Derby and Norwich

Doncaster 46
Derby 46
Watford 44
Blackpool 43
Barnsley 43
Norwich 42
--------------
Plymouth 39
Forest 38
Charlton 28

[/quote]

 

Surely this is the wrong way around? We dropped 4 points to Saints this season?

It won''t happen anyway but presumably in that scenario all clubs would be awarded 6 points for the 2 games v Saints.

 

[/quote]

We got 1 point from Southampton this season so would lose that....

[/quote]

 

Ah - sorry misunderstood

[Grando 336]

Well it would be about right if Norwich Union wrote off a large amount of the debt on the same day it announced 500 job losses in Norwich!

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Grando"]Well it would be about right if Norwich Union wrote off a large amount of the debt on the same day it announced 500 job losses in Norwich![/quote]Grando - you are owed 10 pounds by a bloke down the pub.  The bloke says "I''m going bankrupt unless I can pay you only 2 pounds and you forget about the rest."  What are you going to do - take the 2 pounds, or take nothing ?  Any businessman in their right mind would take the 2 pounds.

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Grando"]Well it would be about right if Norwich Union wrote off a large amount of the debt on the same day it announced 500 job losses in Norwich![/quote]

Grando - you are owed 10 pounds by a bloke down the pub.  The bloke says "I''m going bankrupt unless I can pay you only 2 pounds and you forget about the rest."  What are you going to do - take the 2 pounds, or take nothing ? 

Any businessman in their right mind would take the 2 pounds.
[/quote]

Utterly stupid comparrison and arguement!

[LQ 0]

No it''s not, Wiz.That is exactly how it works (although on a very basic level which was probably the point of blahblahblah''s post!)

[whoareyou? 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Grando"]Well it would be about right if Norwich Union wrote off a large amount of the debt on the same day it announced 500 job losses in Norwich![/quote]

Grando - you are owed 10 pounds by a bloke down the pub.  The bloke says "I''m going bankrupt unless I can pay you only 2 pounds and you forget about the rest."  What are you going to do - take the 2 pounds, or take nothing ? 

Any businessman in their right mind would take the 2 pounds.
[/quote]

 

In this scenario, Soton would have ten points deducted anyway, as they have written off a large part of their debt.

And the rules as i understand them are that the Football League will not allow clubs to only part pay off a debt to another football club and write the rest off. The club would lose it''s League status if they do that!

[mr carra 0]

"In this scenario, Soton would have ten points deducted anyway, as they have written off a large part of their debt. "

 

Southampton''s argument, of course, is that it is not the football club''s debt, but the holding company''s (which owns the ground and owes money to NU).

Whether they get points deducted or not is whether they can make that argument (which is legally correct) stick with the League.

 

[whoareyou? 0]

I thought that the fact that the football club might be writing off a lot of it''s debt this way, meant it broke the League rules anyway, so the points deduction would stand.

 

[Nuff Said 5,963]

Isn''t another issue that the Inland Revenue always insist on being paid debts in full and won''t accept a "x"p in the pound settlement?

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="Nuff Said"]Isn''t another issue that the Inland Revenue always insist on being paid debts in full and won''t accept a "x"p in the pound settlement?[/quote]Due to a complex and bizarre arrangement peculiar to football clubs HMRC do not hold status as preferential creditor and would be at the bottom of the pile along with ambulance services and local business suppliers in the event of insolvency. It''s an open secret that you can generally ''bump'' HMRC if your business is football though I do not recommend anyone else trying it.

[whoareyou? 0]

I don''t think that HMRC is a preferential creditor with any company these days, football or otherwise.

However, they get a vote on any proposed arrangement/deal like all the other creditors based on the money owed to them. If other creditors vote to agree to say 10p in every pound but HMRC don''t, then the majority will get their way whether that includes HMRC or not!

[canarytom 0]

Then they''re screwed!

[Bobzilla 208]

I don''t think that HMRC is a preferential creditor with any company these days, football or otherwise.

However, they get a vote on any proposed arrangement/deal like all the other creditors based on the money owed to them. If other creditors vote to agree to say 10p in every pound but HMRC don''t, then the majority will get their way whether that includes HMRC or not!

Correct. Not since 2000. This may have been because one single bankruptcy could start a chain as creditors of the bankrupt were being bumped in favour of HMRC, and hence ran into cash shortages themselves.

[TheCardinal 0]

[quote user="First Wizard"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Grando"]Well it would be about right if Norwich Union wrote off a large amount of the debt on the same day it announced 500 job losses in Norwich![/quote]

Grando - you are owed 10 pounds by a bloke down the pub.  The bloke says "I''m going bankrupt unless I can pay you only 2 pounds and you forget about the rest."  What are you going to do - take the 2 pounds, or take nothing ? 

Any businessman in their right mind would take the 2 pounds.
[/quote]

Utterly stupid comparrison and arguement!

[/quote]

No, it''s a very good example of what''s happening.