Re. Cullum, let's not forget...

[WeAreYellows49 0]

Milan PC will always be around, he''s a NCFC supporter through and through, but whether or not he would ever consider coming back in again with an offer remains to be seen, I for one hope so.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"] Richard Balls, Adam Aiken, John Tilson, "face" from NCISA who posts on here, have all been highly critical of the board in recent months.  These people are all more "in the loop" than most supporters who post on here, so maybe some people should consider that these people may have very valid reasons for their criticisms.[/quote]

Oh come on Mr Carrow - every poster has valid reasons for believing what they do. It''s one thing to put across a point of view and argue your corner but it''s a totally different thing to hold up, what you believe to be an elite group of supporters, as some kind of proof. For every Richard Balls there''s a Rick Waghorn and for every Adam Aiken there''s a Mick Dennis.

 

[/quote]

I`m talking about people changing their opinions nutty.  I`m not claiming these people are elite supporters but they are almost certainly more well-connected around the club than most of us, and they have become noticeably more critical in recent months.  There are probably plenty of others who i`ve missed out- MITS comes to mind.

Mick Dennis is someone with no local connections (he said as much on "the scrimmage") who latched on to the club at some point in the past.  To be honest i haven`t got a clue when but he comes across as a Delia supporter rather than a Norwich fan.  Waghorn is a Man.City fan who is trying to be impartial.

[Big Down Under 0]

[quote user="milan marcus"]

Big Fish

It is you who is a "numpty"

No expects her to give away £9 million

We expect her and the other shareholders to dilute her shares to in return for £20 million pounds to spend on players

However as you pointed out he has gone away....thanks to our board

Many of us will not "get over it" and even if Glen who is making some great signings manages to get us promoted we will not be able to stay up without PC''s investment

The real danger is if results go against us then she will need to break more than a few eggs to get fans who are not as relaxed as you at losing £20 million pounds from demanding her removal. 

This I think is sad for a lady who many of us respected but who in the end failed to grab the best opportunity this club has ever had of getting back into the big time.

People still don''t seem to understand that financially the current shareholders would be far better of with the investment than without. 

Would you rather own 100% of a club with real financial issues in terms of financing a serious promotion challenge or 49% of a club with a real chance of promotion. 

I would also like the board supporters to answer the question of how much did it cost Delia to get control of the club and by this I mean cash not loans etc?

Why therefore does someone investing £20 million of cash not warrant having control of the club?

Last but not least why as a NCFC fans are we worried how the deal?

This club and our fans are too nice no other set of fans in the world would let the owners throw away a £20 million investment in the TEAM (not hotels etc) with the immortal words "get over it"

In the meantime lets keep our fingers crossed and hope we can have a decent season and PC is still around when we need him..............

 [/quote]

1. Plenty of people expect her to give away her shares. Re read the thread on the simon mayo interview, people frothing at the mouth because they think she said she would, and she didn''t.

2.The share dilution you mention isn''t even legal, is it? No point banging on about something that CAN''T happen. When people mention the City Code, you do know they mean City of London, not special rules for Norwich City?

3. Would you sign away control of one third of your net worth? I wouldn''t, you wouldn''t, nobody of a right mind would. Delia WOULDN''T be better off with a 49% stake in anything

4. Delia has put in about 9m through share purchases and loans - the ONLY ways she can put money in.

5. If I was to put in 20m I would want control too. I would also want control if I put in 9m.

6. Cullum going public was a deliberate attempt to get fans, who don''t understand corporate take overs and only read the 20m headline, on his side. Don''t you feel like he has used you?

7. He has gone away because he didn''t bid enough money to buy the shares he needs to get the control he wants. How can that be the board''s fault?

8. How much did building the hotel cost the club? How much profit from it will go back into the club? No team can operate without money from off the field investments, gate receipts just are no way near enough these days. 

Be happy. The board have hired an excellent manager, and have given him a decent (but not huge it seems) budget. Roeder has made some absolute steals of deals and looks to be building a very exciting team. Meanwhile, the club is financially stable, sells out every game, and has a billionnaire fan who wants to invest waiting in the wings. It really is time to let this Cullum stuff go.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="Big Down Under"][quote user="milan marcus"]

Big Fish

It is you who is a "numpty"

No expects her to give away £9 million

We expect her and the other shareholders to dilute her shares to in return for £20 million pounds to spend on players

However as you pointed out he has gone away....thanks to our board

Many of us will not "get over it" and even if Glen who is making some great signings manages to get us promoted we will not be able to stay up without PC''s investment

The real danger is if results go against us then she will need to break more than a few eggs to get fans who are not as relaxed as you at losing £20 million pounds from demanding her removal. 

This I think is sad for a lady who many of us respected but who in the end failed to grab the best opportunity this club has ever had of getting back into the big time.

People still don''t seem to understand that financially the current shareholders would be far better of with the investment than without. 

Would you rather own 100% of a club with real financial issues in terms of financing a serious promotion challenge or 49% of a club with a real chance of promotion. 

I would also like the board supporters to answer the question of how much did it cost Delia to get control of the club and by this I mean cash not loans etc?

Why therefore does someone investing £20 million of cash not warrant having control of the club?

Last but not least why as a NCFC fans are we worried how the deal?

This club and our fans are too nice no other set of fans in the world would let the owners throw away a £20 million investment in the TEAM (not hotels etc) with the immortal words "get over it"

In the meantime lets keep our fingers crossed and hope we can have a decent season and PC is still around when we need him..............

 [/quote]

1. Plenty of people expect her to give away her shares. Re read the thread on the simon mayo interview, people frothing at the mouth because they think she said she would, and she didn''t.

2.The share dilution you mention isn''t even legal, is it? No point banging on about something that CAN''T happen. When people mention the City Code, you do know they mean City of London, not special rules for Norwich City?

3. Would you sign away control of one third of your net worth? I wouldn''t, you wouldn''t, nobody of a right mind would. Delia WOULDN''T be better off with a 49% stake in anything

4. Delia has put in about 9m through share purchases and loans - the ONLY ways she can put money in.

5. If I was to put in 20m I would want control too. I would also want control if I put in 9m.

6. Cullum going public was a deliberate attempt to get fans, who don''t understand corporate take overs and only read the 20m headline, on his side. Don''t you feel like he has used you?

7. He has gone away because he didn''t bid enough money to buy the shares he needs to get the control he wants. How can that be the board''s fault?

8. How much did building the hotel cost the club? How much profit from it will go back into the club? No team can operate without money from off the field investments, gate receipts just are no way near enough these days. 

Be happy. The board have hired an excellent manager, and have given him a decent (but not huge it seems) budget. Roeder has made some absolute steals of deals and looks to be building a very exciting team. Meanwhile, the club is financially stable, sells out every game, and has a billionnaire fan who wants to invest waiting in the wings. It really is time to let this Cullum stuff go.

[/quote]

Amen....Amen and Amen! Things are looking up on the playing front. Time for ALL FANS to get behind the team and get the season off in a positive way.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Delias` stake didn`t cost £9m.  According to reports at the time (which have been posted on here) the 40-odd percent she bought off Chase only cost £700k because of the financial difficulty the club was in at the time.  Judging by figures posted on here from the accounts by Canary Nut her stake cost about £4m.

[Whats a right winger 0]

Not trying to be a Mick Dennis apologist but he is a proper Norwich fan. He was the equivalent of David Cuffley on the Evening News (or EDP) in the mid 1970s, married a City fan & has been a fan ever since, member of Capital Canaries & I ''ve seen on the terraces/stands at loads of away game. Rochadale last season springs to mind. Just cause someone supports Delia doesn''t make them less of a fan and he was certainly a fan long before she came along

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Mr Carrow - "what''s a right winger" is correct about Mick Dennis and he was a Norwich fan 20 years before Delia Smith joined the board. I have no idea if Richard Balls or Adam Aiken are better fans than him but it''s obvious all three are fans. I don''t know what this "loop" is that your "well connected" fans are closer to. I do know that like many others Tilly thought the appointment of Peter Grant was a good one at the time. We can all be wise aftyer the event and blame the board but who''s to say Peter Cullum wouldn''t have made the same mistake. If you believe that 20m plus being a football fan is a recipe for success don''t look too closely at the managerial appointments at Leicester over the last year or so. Of course 20m would give us more chance of success, especially coupled with a manager who looks like he would know how to spend it, but despite all the Delia quotes continually dragged up from ther past I have yet to see a workable scenario where this 20m could come into the club.

Maybe you should stand back a little bit because I think you are becoming obsessed with this whole Delia\Cullum argument. While you have spent the summer digging your trench deeper and deeper the club has been moving forwards. Quality players are joining the club and it''s time to look forward to the new season with some optimism. October will get here soon enough. If we are where we were last year your trench will be full of people claiming you as a messiah and joining your fight. If we are at the right end of the table you may want to fill in that trench and join me at the games. Life is too short to cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Evil Monkey 52]

Here bloody here, Nutty... I started reading this thread thinking it

might offer some intellectual insight into the inner workings of the

Cullum saga.  It didn''t, it just got very boring very quickly as

two equal and opposing forces butted heads for what seemed like

forever... time for this one to stop, methinks, as there will never be

a winner......

[Barossa 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Mr Carrow - "what''s a right winger" is correct about Mick Dennis and he was a Norwich fan 20 years before Delia Smith joined the board. I have no idea if Richard Balls or Adam Aiken are better fans than him but it''s obvious all three are fans. I don''t know what this "loop" is that your "well connected" fans are closer to. I do know that like many others Tilly thought the appointment of Peter Grant was a good one at the time. We can all be wise aftyer the event and blame the board but who''s to say Peter Cullum wouldn''t have made the same mistake. If you believe that 20m plus being a football fan is a recipe for success don''t look too closely at the managerial appointments at Leicester over the last year or so. Of course 20m would give us more chance of success, especially coupled with a manager who looks like he would know how to spend it, but despite all the Delia quotes continually dragged up from ther past I have yet to see a workable scenario where this 20m could come into the club.

Maybe you should stand back a little bit because I think you are becoming obsessed with this whole Delia\Cullum argument. While you have spent the summer digging your trench deeper and deeper the club has been moving forwards. Quality players are joining the club and it''s time to look forward to the new season with some optimism. October will get here soon enough. If we are where we were last year your trench will be full of people claiming you as a messiah and joining your fight. If we are at the right end of the table you may want to fill in that trench and join me at the games. Life is too short to cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

[/quote]Spot on.Let''s forget about Cullum and congratulate Clark, Roeder and the rest of the management on seven brilliant signings.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Mr Carrow - "what''s a right winger" is correct about Mick Dennis and he was a Norwich fan 20 years before Delia Smith joined the board. I have no idea if Richard Balls or Adam Aiken are better fans than him but it''s obvious all three are fans. I don''t know what this "loop" is that your "well connected" fans are closer to. I do know that like many others Tilly thought the appointment of Peter Grant was a good one at the time. We can all be wise aftyer the event and blame the board but who''s to say Peter Cullum wouldn''t have made the same mistake. If you believe that 20m plus being a football fan is a recipe for success don''t look too closely at the managerial appointments at Leicester over the last year or so. Of course 20m would give us more chance of success, especially coupled with a manager who looks like he would know how to spend it, but despite all the Delia quotes continually dragged up from ther past I have yet to see a workable scenario where this 20m could come into the club.

Maybe you should stand back a little bit because I think you are becoming obsessed with this whole Delia\Cullum argument. While you have spent the summer digging your trench deeper and deeper the club has been moving forwards. Quality players are joining the club and it''s time to look forward to the new season with some optimism. October will get here soon enough. If we are where we were last year your trench will be full of people claiming you as a messiah and joining your fight. If we are at the right end of the table you may want to fill in that trench and join me at the games. Life is too short to cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

[/quote]

Nutty, i`m trying to post in a polite manner because despite our differences you come across as a nice chap, but that post is just a load of drivel.  I brought up the subject of the posters listed in response to a post stating that people don`t change their minds.  Given the amount of flak the board have taken in recent months it is pretty obvious that alot of people have changed their minds and these are people who have day-to-day contact with people in and around the club, not people who sit in Australia reading the pinkun forum and deciding they are an expert. And it hasn`t even got anything to do with the Cullum business.  Do you know anyone who as ever been asked to a private meeting with Delia?  I do, and this chap is even more anti-Delia than me.

As for digging myself a hole, my first post on this thread was responding to BDU`s statement that "Delia has never said or even hinted that she would give her shares away".  Now, given the quotes that have been provided, is that accurate or not?

As for the new player situation, i see it at the moment as slightly better than last pre-season at the moment.  We have lost quality players (Etuhu/Earnshaw, Hucks/Dublin),but i do trust Roeders judgement and i appreciate that the likes of Stefanovic and Hoolihan would have been quite costly to bring in.  Before you get too excited just check out who had to play centre-back in the last game.  The squad is still too small given the common occurence of 4-6 injuries at a time.  But if we bring in someone like Ameobi then i will conclude we are showing ambition and give credit where it is due, but to be honest i don`t think they had any option after last season.

And i do go to games nutty, i just don`t give any money to the club.  If they start showing the requisite ambition then i will pay for tickets.

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]And i do go to games nutty, i just don`t give

any money to the club.  If they start showing the requisite

ambition then i will pay for tickets.[/quote]

Mr Carrow''s found a way to sneak into the ground!!! [:O]

[blahblahblah 2]

...and the last word goes to...

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]...and the last word goes to...[/quote]

You!

Oh no.....

[:$]

[Big Down Under 0]

not people who sit in Australia reading the pinkun forum and deciding they are an expertMr Carrow your personal insults are getting very tedious now. You do this whenever you can''t respond to points I make, this about the fifth time now.I''m now officially very board with this whole debate around Delia and the board. So many of the anti-board types just can''t get their head around the fact that there are intelligent people who disagree with their analysis, can put forward an opposing argument, whilst not being actually married to Delia. It just strikes me as being an extremely juvenile way to view the world. Meanwhile Roeder is out there signing class players, and whilst his budget is obviously not huge, its is large enough to show that the board can fund a competitive team. We haven''t signed a single player who doesn''t have a good pedigree. Obviously there are no guarantees, but there is NO reason why we can''t expect to watch a much higher quality of football this season at Carrow Road, played the ''Norwich'' way. The last thing the playing side needs is impatience and unrest from a portion of the fan base, whether it be directed at them or the Director''s box (it still creates the same, poisonous atmosphere). They need wholehearted support and time to bed in as a team.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

BDU, the only proven "class" player we have signed is Stefanovic.  I`m bored of it all too but when i read such exagerated rubbish i can`t let it lie i`m afraid.  To be fair i am mildly optimistic about the new season and if rumours of an Ameobi type coming in prove true then i will be more so, but believe it or not i was optimistic at the start of last season when plenty of people were posting things like "We haven`t signed a single player who doesn`t have a good pedigree".  I rate our signings as better than last pre-season, but we are building from a much weaker base (no Hucks/Dublin, tiny squad).  Just check out who had to play centre-back at the last friendly.

My posts on this thread have been regarding two specific points: your "Delia has not said or hinted she would give her shares away"- she has, and Blahx3 "I`ve learned that you can`t change peoples minds" and i pointed out that plenty of people have changed their minds about the board in recent years.  If people want me to stop posting, don`t post cobblers.

[jetstream 0]

Mr Carrow

You say "Richard Balls, Adam Aiken, John Tilson, "face" from NCISA who posts on here...are all more "in the loop" than most supporters who post on here...I`m not claiming these people are elite supporters but they are almost certainly more well-connected around the club than most of us"

If you don''t like the term ''elite supporters'' maybe you could use the phrase "superfans"?

;o)

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

 and Blahx3 "I`ve learned that you can`t change peoples minds" and i pointed out that plenty of people have changed their minds about the board in recent years.  If people want me to stop posting, don`t post cobblers.

[/quote]

Well of course they have Mr Carrow. That''s what being a fan is all about. Nobody wants accept mediocrity for their team and we all think we know best. But that''s the beauty of being a fan, we can hold opinions and change our minds willy nilly with no effect on the team or the club. Those people you quote as changing their minds can always change it back again if we have a better season. To save face they could say that "the board wouldn''t have signed anyone if it wasn''t for Cullum so we can thank him." Or " If it wasn''t for the pressure from Mr Carrow and others we would have gone with what we had"  It''s really only proactive fence sitting.

 

[. 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

BDU, the only proven "class" player we have signed is Stefanovic.  I`m bored of it all too but when i read such exagerated rubbish i can`t let it lie i`m afraid.  To be fair i am mildly optimistic about the new season and if rumours of an Ameobi type coming in prove true then i will be more so, but believe it or not i was optimistic at the start of last season when plenty of people were posting things like "We haven`t signed a single player who doesn`t have a good pedigree".  I rate our signings as better than last pre-season, but we are building from a much weaker base (no Hucks/Dublin, tiny squad).  Just check out who had to play centre-back at the last friendly.

My posts on this thread have been regarding two specific points: your "Delia has not said or hinted she would give her shares away"- she has, and Blahx3 "I`ve learned that you can`t change peoples minds" and i pointed out that plenty of people have changed their minds about the board in recent years.  If people want me to stop posting, don`t post cobblers.

[/quote]

Mr. Carrow....almost certainly this forums'' best mind. Certainly less caustic than some of us, but very rarely far off the mark.

But for Peter Cullum entering the fray...very little of this frantic (and painfully obvious) "I''ll show you" nonsense would have occured at CR. It''s shallow and petulent and typical of the small time Charlies who are currently running this club.

Like last year it will all unravell as time goes by...and sadly there will again be thousands of "supporters" dangling on Smith''s little string. No Huckerby or Dublin to inspire this time....and for those who thought Roeder was the "one" who dug us out of the mire last season (by 3 points)...you really are misguided. Dion Dublin did it...and he will no doubt go on to become the sort of manger this club actually needs.

More of the same to come this year...more of the same spin....and more of the same misguided false promise. It''s sad to witness...but that Boudicca spirit is well and truly dead in these parts...or has been watered down by those who want to wear the uniform but are not really dedicated to the cause.

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][....and for those who thought Roeder was the "one" who dug us out of the mire last season (by 3 points)...you really are misguided. Dion Dublin did it...and he will no doubt go on to become the sort of manger this club actually needs.

[/quote]

How ironic that we survived through the legacy left by that much maligned manager Nigel Worthington.

Only The Doc can save us this time[:O]

 

[. 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][....and for those who thought Roeder was the "one" who dug us out of the mire last season (by 3 points)...you really are misguided. Dion Dublin did it...and he will no doubt go on to become the sort of manger this club actually needs.

[/quote]

How ironic that we survived through the legacy left by that much maligned manager Nigel Worthington.

Only The Doc can save us this time[:O]

 

[/quote]

Dublin will be sorely missed...and with regards to Worthington, I think we can all now clearly see what he was up against in Smith and Co. 

He should definately have gone early into that flukey Premiership season....but can you imagine who would heve replaced him? The mind truly boggles.

[BigFish 1,986]

[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][....and for those who thought Roeder was the "one" who dug us out of the mire last season (by 3 points)...you really are misguided. Dion Dublin did it...and he will no doubt go on to become the sort of manger this club actually needs.

[/quote]

How ironic that we survived through the legacy left by that much maligned manager Nigel Worthington.

Only The Doc can save us this time[:O]

 

[/quote]

Dublin will be sorely missed...and with regards to Worthington, I think we can all now clearly see what he was up against in Smith and Co. 

He should definately have gone early into that flukey Premiership season....but can you imagine who would heve replaced him? The mind truly boggles.

[/quote]

Sure Dion will be missed, though much more for his influence than anything that he did on the pitch. Nigel''s point is that no one rated him as a signing when Worthy brought him in.

The question is whether the team is stronger now than August 2007.

The answer is a resounding yes.

[T 190]

I''d recommend that you don''t feed the troll - not interested in a reasoned debate - NC seems to have reappeared just as MY has gone quiet

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Neil Cluckcaster"][....and for those who thought Roeder was the "one" who dug us out of the mire last season (by 3 points)...you really are misguided. Dion Dublin did it...and he will no doubt go on to become the sort of manger this club actually needs.

[/quote]

How ironic that we survived through the legacy left by that much maligned manager Nigel Worthington.

Only The Doc can save us this time[:O]

 

[/quote]

Dublin will be sorely missed...and with regards to Worthington, I think we can all now clearly see what he was up against in Smith and Co. 

He should definately have gone early into that flukey Premiership season....but can you imagine who would heve replaced him? The mind truly boggles.

[/quote]

Sure Dion will be missed, though much more for his influence than anything that he did on the pitch. Nigel''s point is that no one rated him as a signing when Worthy brought him in.

The question is whether the team is stronger now than August 2007.

The answer is a resounding yes.

[/quote]

And people were saying exactly the same thing in August 2007......I remember a certain regular sparring partner on here assuring me that Brellier would be the star of our season.  Our signings vary from decent to pretty much unknown, but just check out who played centre-back in the last friendly and imagine the same scenario against Coventry.  At least one more defender and a top striker and i think we can go into the season with a bit of confidence- but for posters to label our signings as "class" before they`ve played a competetive match for us is laughable.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]I remember a certain regular sparring partner on here assuring me that Brellier would be the star of our season.[/quote]

The bloke was practically a folk hero at Hearts, who was to know ?

I think you can look at the past records of the players that have come in, and say that they are of a decent standard for this level.  Obviously, it''s how they play as a team that will determine how we do.  As EM has said on other threads, it''s the options that the players coming in will give us that is exciting people at the moment - for too long we''ve been predictable.

[quote]for posters to label our signings as "class" before they`ve played a competetive match for us is laughable.[/quote]

...And for posters to label our team as doomed before the 08/09 vintage has kicked a ball in anger is also laughable for the same reason.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="T"]

I''d recommend that you don''t feed the troll - not interested in a reasoned debate - NC seems to have reappeared just as MY has gone quiet

[/quote]

Having discussed various matters with both, I''d say that Cluck is small beer compared to MY.  I''d put money on Cluck and BlyBlyBabes being the same troll though.

[T 190]

You could well be right or all 3 or perhaps they are all just in the same old folks home together - doesn''t bear thinking about

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]Having discussed various matters with both,

I''d say that Cluck is small beer compared to MY.  I''d put money on

Cluck and BlyBlyBabes being the same troll though.[/quote]

I wouldn''t, whilst we don''t often agree on what he''s saying Cluck does

at least have the ability to just say it... ByeByeBrains goes in for

all this nonsense that he hopes sounds all cryptic and mysterious but

just makes him sound like he''s recently been lobotomised with a

screwdriver...

[blahblahblah 2]

I see BlyBly as more of a haiku Cluck.  Maybe it''s the drugs.

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]I see BlyBly as more of a haiku Cluck.  Maybe it''s the drugs.[/quote]

Stay off them, then... [:P][;)]

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]I remember a certain regular sparring partner on here assuring me that Brellier would be the star of our season.[/quote]

The bloke was practically a folk hero at Hearts, who was to know ?

I think you can look at the past records of the players that have come in, and say that they are of a decent standard for this level.  Obviously, it''s how they play as a team that will determine how we do.  As EM has said on other threads, it''s the options that the players coming in will give us that is exciting people at the moment - for too long we''ve been predictable.

[quote]for posters to label our signings as "class" before they`ve played a competetive match for us is laughable.[/quote]

...And for posters to label our team as doomed before the 08/09 vintage has kicked a ball in anger is also laughable for the same reason.

[/quote]

I totally agree Blah.  But BDU telling us that the manager has signed "class players" sounds more than a little like your assertion that Brellier would be our star player last season doesn`t it?  We don`t know.

If you are accusing me of saying the team is doomed you couldn`t be more wrong- read my earlier posts.  In fact i haven`t read any posts saying that, but if you can point them out......?