I agree with Mike Newell

[anothatracksuitmanager 0]

I too agree with Mike Newell, his defence is rubbish, his system was wrong and the better team won, oh hold on he didn''t say that didn''t he. Wonder why?

Isn''t Andy d''urso the referee a man as well,didn''t he have the final decision, Newell is just pathetic and looking for an excuse, I hope he spent the weekend on the couch at home, what we need is good officials, either male, women, or monkeys, no offence meant to Mr Poll.

[Cluck 0]

[quote user="mystic megson"][quote user="LinkNR9"]

Mystic Megson wrote "on the pitch it IS a man''s world.  Simple statement of fact.."

Why is it a man''s world? Why is it a ''fact''?

Your statement above lacks substance as well as being embarrassingly sexist. Having seen the linesmen give some awful decisions at our last two home games, I would have no problems with the linos who officiated at the England Ladies'' game at Carrow Road doing so for our matches.    

[/quote]

It''s a man''s world because all the players are men.  I meant it in the purely factual sense, nothing to do with machismo.  

As posted above, I entirely disagree with Newell''s implication that women per se are not up to the job.  Ability is not the issue.  It''s about equality for the sake of it. 

As a matter of fact, I''m no longer sure that the use of women has much to do with equal opportunities. Newell''s rather extreme-sounding comment about "What if they were all women?" is presumably a reference to the fact that there''s a growing shortage of men to officiate.  Replacing them with women is not the answer.  Someone needs to find out why there''s a shortage of men and do something about it. 

Syphoning off the best officials from women''s football could also have a detrimental effect on the development of the women''s game imo. 

Why do you find sexism embarrassing?  Do you feel it is your duty to enlighten me?  As a woman I find that patronising.

[/quote]

Mystic. I find it stunning that a female perspective on a straight forward matter should evoke such banal response from the PC brigade. Having read your posts since joining I have become very impressed with your argument on many things......and how balanced and intelligent you obviously are.

I''m afraid that many who speak on these matters are the product of a brainwashed age where difference is to be denied and self expression deplored. It''s seems that if we are able to think for ourselves we are deemed dangerous......not unlike in dictatorships where everyone must share a united view or suffer the consequences.

I support your view that women are in no way less than equal with men....and concede that in most cases men are gradually losing status because they are unable to compete with the efficiency of women. I do however strongly recognise that in a man''s sport.....sometimes men should be allowed to get on with things without these petty PC demands dictating direction. For God''s sake leave the game alone.......Ridiculous rules have already taken the edge away from things and it has become a nigh on ''non-contact'' sport. If the ''old'' game isn''t to your liking then why not move on and create ''nancyball'' or something.....but leave mens football alone!

[Cantiaci Canary 557]

I''m sorry but I couldn''t disagree with you more. It is not ''political correctness gone mad'' to say that Newell''s comments were sexist, out of order, patronising and just plain wrong! Was it ''political correctness gone mad'' to suggest that women should have the vote, join the army or be seen equal in the eyes of the judicial system? Was it ''political correctness gone mad'' to campaign for the end to segregation between white and black people in the USA and South Africa?

To say that women cannot understand a ''mans game'' is utter tosh. There is no biological reason why women can''t be as efficient at running the line as men!

The sooner that these out-dated, derogatory and irrational views are totally dispelled from our mindset the better.

Newell was absolutely wrong. He should be sacked.

OTBC   

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

Why is it banal to ask in what way is a woman less able to be a referee than a man? (still no answer by the bigotry brigade) It is not political correctness gone mad or any other such tedious cliche, it''s a reasonable question to ask. It is also not trying to deny that men and women might be different in various way, just not in their ability to referee a bloody football match!  And just because MM supports MN doesn''t automatically make it right, I''m sure there are women that think women should be in the home and nowhere else too.  Jeez, crawl out of the dark ages

[Canary Poirot 1]

Konstantin Pobedonostsev wrote: "The sooner that these out-dated, derogatory and irrational views are totally dispelled from our mindset the better.Newell was absolutely wrong. He should be sacked."

I''m sorry but that''s a ridiculous response. He was just offering his opinion. Why should someone be sacked for that? It strikes me he said it because he had a belief that she lacked the experience / knowledge to do that job properly. Why? Becase presumably she''s never played at a particularly high level before or even played football that often, and given the high stakes at this level, some people under pressure might find it unacceptable (like Newall clearly does).

As for the argument for whether woman officiate at professional or non-professional male games, having played in a game with a female referee I''ve seen first hand the number of problems they could have. Although it was a non-professional game, the female ref complete lost control of the game. Why? Because every decision she made was responded by a male giving her a ''remark'' of sorts. It became totally unmanagable. Maybe a stronger / better ref could''ve controlled it - but it clearly wouldn''t happen with a male ref. Additionally, there''s the issue of respect Most men have played a lot of football, and understand the game better than women (not all women I grant you and not all men - but I''m talking generally and the probabilities favour the male side) and hence are likely to make better decisions in a high profile match on the whole. However, an experienced female referee who had done her time in non-league / lower divisions would also be able to do the job as well - but how many there are is open to debate.

It''s similar to the Uriah Rennie situation. He''s virtually the only black referee around, and when he came up through the ranks, he made it to the Prem quite fast (maybe so race equality could be seen - but also becuase it encourages more black men). I''ve got no problem with him, but I do remember him sending off Alan Shearer for ''continously niggling fouls''. Maybe he rose too far too soon, and would''ve benefited from erferring in the Championship / League 1 for a bit longer to get more experience. Who knows.

[Tumbleweed 106]

I agree with Konstantin, I lost my respect for Newell when I heard what he had said.

Political correctness has gone mad in some quarters- many examples coming up when I as a Christian may not be able to refer to Christmas in my workplace for the perceived fear of upsetting a non-Christian.

However female referees is not political correctness gone mad. If she has the qualifications, the ability and the  fitness levels to do the job then there is not one plausible reason why she cannot referee. If the players feel they cannot swear at her or abuse her for making decisions they disagree with then in fact that is a good thing and something which should be true of all officials whether male, female, white, black, tall, thin, fat or bald.

Newell admits to being sexist- it may be true but as a role model he should know better.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="cluckaduckadingbat"]

Mystic. I find it stunning that a female perspective on a straight forward matter should evoke such banal response from the PC brigade.

[/quote]

What a surprise!!!

[salp 0]

i do not have an opinion about ''ladies'' on the line but why are there none of the award winning Arsenal Ladies playing along Henry?

got to be there to be there....

[salp 0]

could have done with a few Norwich girls playing at Twickers eh?

[mbncfc 1]

It sounds more likely that Mike Newell will be sacked for slagging off the new Luton chairman, rather than for his comments about female officials.

Also, Mike Newell has apologised, so I don''t think even Mike Newell agrees with Mike Newell.

I don''t believe he should be sacked.

As for my 50 cents worth, you cannot blame a bad goalkick/corner decision on the assistant being female. Anyone going to football realises how many mistakes are made by officials (presumably all male in the past). Personally I feel this debate is completely irrelevent to the incident it originated from, and is being used solely as a vessel for people to express more general views on PC, sexism and discrimination.

Some men can cook. Some men can multitask. Some men can handle emotions.

Some women have amazing spacial awareness. Some women understand the offside rule.

If you are able to do something, your sex, race, religion etc. should not discriminate against getting an oportunity to do it. And I''m afraid these issues are all connected.

The best point made so far refers to the women''s game, and it would be a shame if female officials were siphoned from the women''s game to the men''s.

[Yellow Rages 0]

[quote user="cityangel"]

Sorry ladies if I''m letting the side down, but its a man''s game and I personally don''t want to see female refs and linos.

Its men I want to see and if I do want to see women I''ll go and watch netball.

 

Sorry girls!

[/quote]

That''s right treacle, now peddle those buns into the kitchen and make me a cup of tea.

[Herb 0]

[quote user="cityangel"]

Sorry ladies if I''m letting the side down, but its a man''s game and I personally don''t want to see female refs and linos.

[/quote]Well since it''s a man''s game, surely you should be giving up your ticket to a (obviously far more deserving) man?You can''t have it all ways!

[YankeeCanary 0]

Regardless of the amount of intercourse we engage in, things will evolve over time in free and open society such that opportunity will be open to everyone in all fields of endeavour. As we meander toward undoubtedly the greater environment every obstacle that is currently present will eventually fall. Most of us are enlightened enough to realise that.

In the USA from my observance to date I have not seen women emerge as officials on the field of play as far as baseball and football are concerned. It probably is not even practical to consider they would play a role on the basketball court because most spectators would wonder what message a women official is attempting to convey speaking to a male player "below the belt" so to speak.

Another interesting part of the evolution has been the fact that women continue to push away at the barriers men have cordoned off for themselves. One such example is in golf at Augusta, where women are not allowed. There are many such examples with far less profile that are still in existence. Slowly, but surely, the barriers are coming down. Interestingly, however, women are in no mood to make similar concessions and allow males to become members of clubs that have traditionally been for "women only." Other than a few caustic newspaper columns by the odd male there has been very little action by men to fight for equality.     

As far as Mike Newell is concerned, regardless of whether or not you agree with his point of view on a number of things, for such a young man in football management he does not appear to be particularly bright. 

 

 

[Cluck 0]

Some typically sarcastic comments...but some valuable points too.

I just don''t understand why women and men have to be the same and do exactly the same things. What is so wrong that men want to play football with other men in charge?  If this so called equality is to become total....then lets do away with womens sport altogether and mix it all up. How many women would then have success in professional football...rugby...cricket...tennis...golf....athletics...swimming....and so on. It''s hilarious and as with everything in life....you can''t have your cake and eat it.

It''s great that women now enjoy the opportunities our parents so foolishly denied them.....no doubt only because during the war women virtually ran the country and did most of what men claimed was ''their'' work.....but don''t lets go crazy. We are different...both physically and mentally...and why can''t we just celebrate that rather than try to be a mono-sexual society?

As was stated above...I too have witnessed a woman refereeing an amateur match and after a very short time it collapsed into mayhem. Testosterone propels a male footballer around the pitch and along with that comes aggression. It is chauvenistic by character and a female angle does not cut ice with the average ''pub'' team on a Sunday morning....and pro''s think much the same when asked ''off the record''.

For Newell to be hauled over the coals for stating an opinion is ludicrous......and no doubt the club will use him as a scapegoat to hide their own inadequacies.....just like Delia and Co did before. It''s all very convenient.

 

 

[John Boubepo 0]

[quote user="Herb"][quote user="cityangel"]

Sorry ladies if I''m letting the side down, but its a man''s game and I personally don''t want to see female refs and linos.

[/quote]Well since it''s a man''s game, surely you should be giving up your ticket to a (obviously far more deserving) man?You can''t have it all ways![/quote]How do you make that out? I wouldn''t expect to take part in womens beach volleyball but I sure as hell like watching it

[canary cherub 1]

[quote user="SPat"]Why is it banal to ask in what way is a woman less able to be a referee than a man? (still no answer by the bigotry brigade) It is not political correctness gone mad or any other such tedious cliche, it''s a reasonable question to ask. It is also not trying to deny that men and women might be different in various way, just not in their ability to referee a bloody football match!  And just because MM supports MN doesn''t automatically make it right, I''m sure there are women that think women should be in the home and nowhere else too.  Jeez, crawl out of the dark ages
[/quote]

Please read previous replies before you post.  ABILITY IS NOT THE ISSUE.

[Marty 0]

[quote user="Konstantin Pobedonostsev"]

I''m sorry but I couldn''t disagree with you more. It is not ''political correctness gone mad'' to say that Newell''s comments were sexist, out of order, patronising and just plain wrong! Was it ''political correctness gone mad'' to suggest that women should have the vote, join the army or be seen equal in the eyes of the judicial system? Was it ''political correctness gone mad'' to campaign for the end to segregation between white and black people in the USA and South Africa?

To say that women cannot understand a ''mans game'' is utter tosh. There is no biological reason why women can''t be as efficient at running the line as men!

The sooner that these out-dated, derogatory and irrational views are totally dispelled from our mindset the better.

Newell was absolutely wrong. He should be sacked.

OTBC   

[/quote]

As long as they have the same qualifications then I guess it is fair, however, to say that men and biologically the same as women is wrong. If we were all the same women would not just be refs, they''d be playing in a multi sex league, this will never happen though will it? The 2 sexes are physiologically and biologically different, this means we are suited to different skills / tasks etc., just look at ability to drive / park! this is not a myth. But if a women has passed the exams exactly the sames as the ones taken by men then of course they should have proven themselves good enough, but this does not mean they are exempt from critisism. In my opinion it''s a shame they are not sexiers though!

On a seperate point what do people think about women getting paid the same in tennis, in my opinion it is absurd, when they compete on the same physical level they can ask for the same money, until then not a chance.

 

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="mystic megson"]

[quote user="SPat"]Why is it banal to ask in what way is a woman less able to be a referee than a man? (still no answer by the bigotry brigade) It is not political correctness gone mad or any other such tedious cliche, it''s a reasonable question to ask. It is also not trying to deny that men and women might be different in various way, just not in their ability to referee a bloody football match!  And just because MM supports MN doesn''t automatically make it right, I''m sure there are women that think women should be in the home and nowhere else too.  Jeez, crawl out of the dark ages
[/quote]

Please read previous replies before you post.  ABILITY IS NOT THE ISSUE.

[/quote]

What is the issue then? I’ve read your original post again and I’m not really sure what your point is anymore.

Do you just agree that it’s a mans game and nothing else or do you also agree with Newell’s overall opinion on women officials.

By the way Cluck, I’ve played in a couple of amateur games with female referees and after a few players had got the obvious sarcastic comments out of their system the game passed without incident. It certainly did not descend into some orgy of uncontoolable testosterone fuelled lust as you seem to suggest! Perhaps the problem is with the average pub team and not the female official.

[Troy Tempest 0]

Alert, Marty........

The butt-police are about and removed my favourite picture of Atlanta posing at Marineville from my avatar.

Personally, I love and respect women in general which doesn''t make me averse to looking at beautiful women any more than it allows me to be perfectly comfortable with women who have other attributes. Best of all: attractive and intelligent women. There is nothing I appreciate more than a lovely lady with real intellect.

Think about it....the world is our oyster and we can have our cake and eat it.

As for sport, the watching public will dictate the level of sponsorship, prize money,exposure etc and I suspect there are more men and women wanting to watch male dominated events than there are female dominated. Having said that the female competition in tennis, after years in the doldrums, is now really good.

Getting back to the football official debate I can still see no reason why women should not perform equally and on an individual basis better than some or all of their colleagues.

[Marty 0]

Yes Troy, I see the ultra offensive pics of a pair of something that we all have was deemed too controversial for this forum. Slightly petty censorship if you ask me. I have never seen the buttocks as being offensive really. But I could cahnge my avatar to something that is deemed acceptible like say for instance a pic of a women wearing a Burqa! hiding everything but her eyes, I guess no-one would complain about my avatar then would they? yeah I might do that, show a pic that i think every civilised person should find offensive in the 21st century (for reasons i will not go into now).

Whatabout if it was a pic of my a*se? not saying i''d do that, wouldn''t want to put anyone through that experience, but would it be censored too? 

I guess i''ll put the guinea pigs back tonight then, or will this offend too, vermin? I hope they don''t count as pigs, some people find them offensive, it''s a mucked up world really isn''t it.

 

[Cluck 0]

A pretty considered debate all round and strong views expressed of course. There are many who agree with the principle of equality of the sexes....and many like me exercise that in daily life........but there are also those who don''t know when to stop. That''s where the problems begin.

Regarding female officials....this must surely be dictated by whether the woman''s authority on a football field is 100% acceptable by the players. There are 22 of them....plus subs who must agree to be controlled by a woman during what is often an open battle. Mens football is a testosterone based sport and is little more than a modern replacement for medieval skurmishes....as is rugby.  We are all ultimately animals still......so no matter how politically correct this society becomes....men will always seek aggressive activities. Put a five foot nothing woman in the middle of all that and you get dissent.....it''s only human nature. The day football loses that aggressive edge....the game will be dead and no-one will bother with it anymore. Out in nature....with the exception perhaps of spiders......the larger, stronger animal is generally dominant. We humans are trying to turn things upside down and create a society where small animals compete equally with large ones......That wouldn''t be possible in any other species. Survival of the fittest and all that......

With regards to tennis Marty. I laughed at this back at Wimbledon. For women to demand equality in tennis...surely they must not only play against men...but also over 5 sets. Anything short of this is not equal and so cannot properly command equal prizes. This is where it has gone mad. It seems that if women kick a ball or hold a racquet....they are automatically the same as man. I even thought that women sharing the stage during the Ashes series celebration dummed down the achievement of the mens team. We really must get out of this period of denial and begin to appreciate difference once more.....because that''s what brings colour to our society.

[Web Team - Vince 0]

Based on the feedback we received last time during The Great Saucy Avatars Debate, scantily clad close-ups aren''t what people expect to see thrust into their faces when visiting this site.A lovely pair of Guinea pigs upsets no one.

[Marty 0]

[quote user="Web Team - Vince"]

A lovely pair of Guinea pigs upsets no one.
[/quote]

 

that''s debateable! I know at least one person who dislikes them, i''m sure there a guinea pigophobes out there!

[Cantiaci Canary 557]

[quote user="Marty"]

Yes Troy, I see the ultra offensive pics of a pair of something that we all have was deemed too controversial for this forum. Slightly petty censorship if you ask me. I have never seen the buttocks as being offensive really. But I could cahnge my avatar to something that is deemed acceptible like say for instance a pic of a women wearing a Burqa! hiding everything but her eyes, I guess no-one would complain about my avatar then would they? yeah I might do that, show a pic that i think every civilised person should find offensive in the 21st century (for reasons i will not go into now).

Whatabout if it was a pic of my a*se? not saying i''d do that, wouldn''t want to put anyone through that experience, but would it be censored too? 

I guess i''ll put the guinea pigs back tonight then, or will this offend too, vermin? I hope they don''t count as pigs, some people find them offensive, it''s a mucked up world really isn''t it.

 

[/quote]

 

... can we stick to a football debate or must we regurgitate Daily Mail social intolerance?

[Mook 0]

[quote user="Marty"]

On a seperate point what do people think about women getting paid the same in tennis, in my opinion it is absurd, when they compete on the same physical level they can ask for the same money, until then not a chance.

[/quote]

The women DO get paid the same in tennis. In every other venue except Wimbledon!

Can we not just address the point here - if a woman is good enough to run the line, she should be allowed, yes?

If she is not good enough, then she should not be given a job just to "balance" the game, right?

I mean, come on everyone, it''s hardly rocket science. I think the only argument is that Newell made out that ALL women should be kept out of the game. Which makes him a knuckle-dragging caveman. Much like some of the "Oh My God, The (imaginary) PC Brigade Are Ruining Everything (For The White Male)" brigade.

 

"Next they''ll try to ban christmas" ...... say the people who don''t believe in God and aren''t Christian.

[Troy Tempest 0]

Trouble is Vince, the odd complainant (who may themselves have issues) being subjective, isn''t particularly democratic and this is the crux of the whole debate. I disagree with Newell but I respect his right to an opinion, why should it take nothing more than a minority, even a singular, dissenter to dictate the course to which everyone else must adhere?

As for all those jumping on the condemnation bandwagon they are either bullies themselves using the issue to victimise another (Newell) or else they are brainwashed and are the type of idiots who cried ''heretic'' or supported the Salem witch trials and numerous other collective ills of society.

 

[Troy Tempest 0]

What is needed, Marty, so we can still appreciate your lady and not risk offence is a link to a site. Do you have one?

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

[quote user="Web Team - Vince"]A lovely pair of Guinea pigs upsets no one.[/quote]If only that were so. When my pair of pet Guinea pigs died when I was nine years old, I cried for hours.  Even you mentioning it now gets me a little tearful. (blub)

[In Dubious Battle 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4101043.stm

If female officials pass the same qualifications then they should be able to be linesman/refferes in the mens game to say otherwise is wrong and makes you no better than a racist!

Check out the link above, if they are able to compete at the same level why shouldn''t women be allowed to play in mens football teams?

[Cluck 0]

[quote user="Troy Tempest"]What is needed, Marty, so we can still appreciate your lady and not risk offence is a link to a site. Do you have one?[/quote]

Eeeeeeeee Troy. You dirty devil!...........[:D]

I find it hilarious that such a tiny picture of a covered part of a womans anatomy could be regarded as offensive. I really must find that photo of my Uncle Nipplehead to put up............Now where is it?.............