Time to accept that Wagner is doing a good job

[littleyellowbirdie 2,565]

3 minutes ago, Bobzilla said:

Fair point and one I hope is true for him.  Confidence is massive for a striker, but the problem with Idah is that he never seemed to grow in that confidence.  He hit two in one of our earlier games (can’t remember which, Plymouth?) and I was hoping that would give him the confidence, but it fizzled pretty quickly.  Which is a real shame.

I think it gets to be a vicious circle where the only way to fix it is a move. I'm very interested to see whether Celtic finish up buying him or whether we decide to have another go.

Edited April 7 by littleyellowbirdie

[hogesar 9,709]

12 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Our rivals loaned players, we were more interested in moving them on.

We let possibly the most dangerous player from the bench in the league depart and replaced him with what unfortunately is turning out to be a damp squib.

It’s a good job we had players returning or we wouldn’t have made it. One more key injury/suspension over the run in could have cost us and possibly could still.

Theres so few options from the bench the team picks itself.

I wanted to give Knapper credit, I wanted to be positive from his first window (and there were positives) but in terms of pushing for promotion this season it’s a massive gamble if it comes off (and the credit if it does must go to Wagner and his team) and really does smack of us not expecting to be in this position.

This is an excellent post.

Wagner will deserve extra credit for finishing in the playoffs because he'll have done it despite the SD weakening the team in January, whilst the other teams around us strengthened. 

It's still a concern we don't have a usable substitute striker who can actually contribute. I think we must be the only team in and around the top 10 with that huge limitation. Idah wasn't the complete player but he was goalscoring and effective from the bench.

[Mr.Carrow 378]

15 hours ago, Michael Starr said:

We beat Ipswich today but ultimately, we are where we should be under any coach with this set of players. Top 6. He's got us there. I wouldn't say he's been brilliant. He's been on par over the course of a season on what was expected of him. That's what has kept him in his job. Top 6. I would say that with a better head coach, we would have perhaps already secured top 6 by now.

Compare out bench with a side who were in league one last season and haven't had big investment. Ours was so weak i don't think anyone was clamouring for more subs yesterday, despite some players looking absolutely shot towards the end of the game. We have possibly our best player playing out of position on the right because there are no more realistic options. Coming up with creative solutions which work in a very weak squat is excellent management. 

[hogesar 9,709]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

He has stumbled on a formula that works at home, with our best players available. Credit to him for the turnaround. That said, even yesterday I didn’t like the way we sat deep at the end, we could have let them back in it. Our tendency to sit deep and go passive, which I think is often on instructions, is our downfall when we lose. 
 

Away from home we remain flaky and tactically we have often been poor.

So for me he’s doing ok but a better coach would have had us challenging for automatic and would not have had that terrible run which is the reason we aren’t. 

 

My god,  absolute nonsense.

How on earth would we have scored the goals to challenge for the ridiculous points total this year for automatics under ANY manager with combinations of multiple games missing Sargent, Barnes, Rowe, Sainz, Onel and Nunez?

If you think our overall squad with those injuries could still be challenging for Autos then you'd have to hand deliver Sporting Director of the Century award to Stuart Webber for such a complete squad build on a limited budget. I'm guessing you wouldn't, though?

[Jim Smith 2,325]

34 minutes ago, Bobzilla said:

Perhaps sir can explain how you challenge for automatic when our strike force doesn’t get on the pitch?

For everything anyone says about Idah, his goals were always opportunistic.  Ian Rush without the luck, support and talent.  I can’t remember a single goal opportunity he has MADE.  I’ve seen him chase down a ball precisely once.  I’ve seen him get into good crossing positions with his speed, but then not been able to deliver.  I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but he has never been the player that we have needed in our team.  I suspect that he needs lots and lots and lots of low fast crosses in the box, and we don’t get into enough wide positions to give him that.  So without Barnes and Sargeant we were never going to be there.  Even Alex Ferguson wouldn’t have got us there.

We just should have adapted better and ground out more results than we did. Even in that period we had enough in the squad to go better. He had Sainz and Nunez fit for a fair bit of it and didn’t play them. He needed to change the shape and make us harder to play through. Regardless of where we are now, o find it hard to see how anyone can argue that Wagner should not have done better during that period.

[Jim Smith 2,325]

16 minutes ago, hogesar said:

This is an excellent post.

Wagner will deserve extra credit for finishing in the playoffs because he'll have done it despite the SD weakening the team in January, whilst the other teams around us strengthened. 

It's still a concern we don't have a usable substitute striker who can actually contribute. I think we must be the only team in and around the top 10 with that huge limitation. Idah wasn't the complete player but he was goalscoring and effective from the bench.

We will have Rowe back next week though who I think can do a job in any of the forward positions 

[hogesar 9,709]

6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

We will have Rowe back next week though who I think can do a job in any of the forward positions 

We do, but we already have no winger options. That Wagner has got Sara in this inside wide role drifting in to such great effect is credit to him but we've not had much choice!

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

14 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

We just should have adapted better and ground out more results than we did. Even in that period we had enough in the squad to go better. He had Sainz and Nunez fit for a fair bit of it and didn’t play them. He needed to change the shape and make us harder to play through. Regardless of where we are now, o find it hard to see how anyone can argue that Wagner should not have done better during that period.

Yeah, I think this is a fair point. I don't think many fans were expecting us to keep challenging right at the top with all those injuries. But we shouldn't have been as bad as we were in that period. Just way too easy to play against. He's a stubborn old bügger, Wagner, which can be a quality - I'm full of admiration of the way he rode out that period where he was getting a lot of stick (some deserved, but more undeserved, in my view) to get us to this period where we're real contenders again. Don't think even the most optimistic saw this coming, though I guess the old folks would say you never can tell.

But his stubbornness in sticking to system he didn't have the players to make work was a mistake. Obviously impossible to know from the outside, but it did seem to change when Knapper arrived. Easy to imagine a meeting where BK said to him, 'keep conceding two goals a game and you're not going to be in a job much longer.'

[hogesar 9,709]

28 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yeah, I think this is a fair point. I don't think many fans were expecting us to keep challenging right at the top with all those injuries. But we shouldn't have been as bad as we were in that period. Just way too easy to play against. He's a stubborn old bügger, Wagner, which can be a quality - I'm full of admiration of the way he rode out that period where he was getting a lot of stick (some deserved, but more undeserved, in my view) to get us to this period where we're real contenders again. Don't think even the most optimistic saw this coming, though I guess the old folks would say you never can tell.

But his stubbornness in sticking to system he didn't have the players to make work was a mistake. Obviously impossible to know from the outside, but it did seem to change when Knapper arrived. Easy to imagine a meeting where BK said to him, 'keep conceding two goals a game and you're not going to be in a job much longer.'

What shouldn't be underestimated, but certainly has been by some like Jim, is just how hard it is to keep a motivated, enthused dressing room with those injuries and subsequent results. Despite that the players stuck with Wagner all the way.

And before people claim that's easy, he's just a nice guy - we've had multiple nice guy managers who the players completely down tools for.

And players know the inside goings on as well. They know how impactful the injuries were but also, if they felt Wagner was as tactically clueless as Jim and Co believe, there's no way they'd have kept behind him throughout such an awful run. 

But they did.

[TheGunnShow 5,965]

He's had some inventive ideas, some that worked and some that didn't. Sara coming off the flank has been a success, McLean's done well at left-back (but Placheta wasn't, I could see the logic, but it didn't work) and McLean was also close to being a revelation at left centre-half in his appearances there. So much so that personally, if Gibson doesn't lower his wage demands in contract negotiations, I'd be more than happy to see Kenny take his place there and free up a role in midfield for Gibbs or another midfielder.

And does anyone remember the game, I think it was Hull under Farke, where we were so threadbare up top that we chucked Marco Stiepermann up there and got beat? That's basically what Wagner had to work with for a few months without Sargent.

As @hogesar rightly noted, if the players thought Wagner was tactically clueless or setting them up to fail, they'd not have stuck by him as much as they do. it was obvious at the end of the derby how much they enjoy playing for him.

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

52 minutes ago, hogesar said:

What shouldn't be underestimated, but certainly has been by some like Jim, is just how hard it is to keep a motivated, enthused dressing room with those injuries and subsequent results. Despite that the players stuck with Wagner all the way.

And before people claim that's easy, he's just a nice guy - we've had multiple nice guy managers who the players completely down tools for.

And players know the inside goings on as well. They know how impactful the injuries were but also, if they felt Wagner was as tactically clueless as Jim and Co believe, there's no way they'd have kept behind him throughout such an awful run. 

But they did.

No argument with that. The celebrations of Idah's late goal at Bristol City (not Hull, thanks TGS) told us everything we needed to know on that score. 

Obviously as fans the past is the past. We're in a great position now,  better than most of us predicted at the start of the season and way better than most of us feared at Christmas. All that's left now is to enjoy being in the 'interesting positions' again and try to roar the boys home.  But part of Knapper's job is to take a more dispassionate view of how the head coach is doing, and when he does so, there'll be stuff in both columns of his list. That's all I'm saying.

Edited April 7 by Robert N. LiM
Corrected error

[TheGunnShow 5,965]

1 minute ago, Robert N. LiM said:

No argument with that. The celebrations of Idah's late goal at Hull told us everything we needed to know on that score. 

Obviously as fans the past is the past. We're in a great position now,  better than most of us predicted at the start of the season and way better than most of us feared at Christmas. All that's left now is to enjoy being in the 'interesting positions' again and try to roar the boys home.  But part of Knapper's job is to take a more dispassionate view of how the head coach is doing, and when he does so, there'll be stuff in both columns of his list. That's all I'm saying.

Think you meant the one at Bristol City.

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Think you meant the one at Bristol City.

I did indeed. Will correct. 

[Well b back 3,248]

It is common knowledge Wagner thought Sainz and Nunes needed time to settle in, and this board surely he proves him right as some of the stick they got for not being very good, backed his opinion. Now after Wagners development programme they are top players.

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

I personally wouldn't want Wagner here for next season, whatever league we are in. Too many shocking games, subs, runs (end of last season, bad run this (with mitigation) to be forgotten.

However, most would now think he has earned that right, and it is a fact that cannot be disputed. The good has overtaken the bad.

Edited April 7 by BroadstairsR

[Monty13 2,235]

2 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Compare out bench with a side who were in league one last season and haven't had big investment. Ours was so weak i don't think anyone was clamouring for more subs yesterday, despite some players looking absolutely shot towards the end of the game. We have possibly our best player playing out of position on the right because there are no more realistic options. Coming up with creative solutions which work in a very weak squat is excellent management. 

The fact we beat them again is a joy, the fact it might cause them to miss the automatics is also to be savoured. I hope they finish 3rd and us 6th because we have a mental hold over them and our 1st 11 is just better than theirs. 

The only slight downer I felt from yesterday is watching them bring on Subs from a bench that was stacked with far more options than ours. Luckily it didn’t matter, credit to Wagner and the players for that, but our bench is threadbare by comparison. I know we have injuries but so do all sides, surely no one expected us to finish an injury hit season without more. 

[Monty13 2,235]

32 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

No argument with that. The celebrations of Idah's late goal at Bristol City (not Hull, thanks TGS) told us everything we needed to know on that score. 

Obviously as fans the past is the past. We're in a great position now,  better than most of us predicted at the start of the season and way better than most of us feared at Christmas. All that's left now is to enjoy being in the 'interesting positions' again and try to roar the boys home.  But part of Knapper's job is to take a more dispassionate view of how the head coach is doing, and when he does so, there'll be stuff in both columns of his list. That's all I'm saying.

I agree with this. Wagner has made Knappers job incredibly difficult now. Yes that period was poor and an underperformance despite the difficulties, but he’s also been excelling since.

If Knapper wanted a new coach he had an opportunity to come in and sweep clean at a time no one would have blamed him for it.

If Wagner takes us to the playoffs, and possibly beyond, removing him is going to have a negative affect on players (who clearly are playing for him as others have mentioned) and the relationship with supporters that I think it’s fair to say HE has repaired, no one else.

If the subconscious plan was to let Wagner play out this season and refresh in the summer, Knapper’s going to have to pivot now IMO. 

[Jim Smith 2,325]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

We do, but we already have no winger options. That Wagner has got Sara in this inside wide role drifting in to such great effect is credit to him but we've not had much choice!

Yes but Rowe back will enable Sara to move into the Barnes role. That js a great front 6

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

17 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

The fact we beat them again is a joy, the fact it might cause them to miss the automatics is also to be savoured. I hope they finish 3rd and us 6th because we have a mental hold over them and our 1st 11 is just better than theirs. 

The only slight downer I felt from yesterday is watching them bring on Subs from a bench that was stacked with far more options than ours. Luckily it didn’t matter, credit to Wagner and the players for that, but our bench is threadbare by comparison. I know we have injuries but so do all sides, surely no one expected us to finish an injury hit season without more. 

They had a couple of significant players out, don't forget, Burns and that centre forward whose name escapes me.

We have Rowe and Argos and others whose names escape me.

Evened out, I suppose. 

Our bench is thin because of bad signings as much as anything, RVD, Long and of course Forshaw who was never replaced, as wasn't Placheta.

On the upside, a few decent City youth were benched. Most of their bench was bought or loaned.

(A brain cell has clicked, Gio & G. Hirst.)

Edited April 7 by BroadstairsR

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

3 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

If the subconscious plan was to let Wagner play out this season and refresh in the summer, Knapper’s going to have to pivot now IMO.

I'm sure this was the plan, hence the lack of strengthening in January. Personally I wouldn't be against a change if Knapper thinks he has a clear upgrade. It might be that Cuesta is a generationally-great coach and this is our one chance to get him, for instance. But agree completely that getting rid of Wagner in the summer would have significant, probably insurmountable negatives that really didn't look likely when BK arrived.

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes but Rowe back will enable Sara to move into the Barnes role. That js a great front 6

Think this would be a mistake, personally. Sara is much more effective in his current position than as a ten, and Barnes remains bafflingly underrated. He's just such an asset to this team. And Rowe would be an absolutely brilliant sub to play the last 30 minutes of games, the 'finisher' that we completely lack off the bench at the moment.

[Monty13 2,235]

Just now, BroadstairsR said:

They had a couple of significant players out, don't forget, Burns and that centre forward whose name escapes me.

We have Rowe and Argos and others whose names escape me.

Evened out, I suppose. 

Our bench is thin because of bad signings as much as anything, RVD, Long and of course Forshaw who was never replaced, as wasn't Placheta.

On the upside, a few decent City youth were benched. Most of their bench was bought or loaned.

While it’s great to see youth on the bench if they aren’t seen as viable options to change/secure a game it’s not ideal IMO. 

Yes they bought and loaned players in January to push for promotion, it hopefully won’t work out for them. 

I still would have preferably had one more viable option brought in sitting on our bench, you’d think Knapper would known of a few players that could have improved us from his previous role.

Hopefully we have no more injuries/suspensions, Rowe comes back fully fit and hopefully Dimi too but it just feels on a knife edge still to me. Losing one or two more players for the playoffs could be disastrous.

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

Agree re: Barnes, but I do not see him as the way forward, but could well be of use in his last season on occasions and in the c room.

I s RVD any sort of answer is the big question.

[PurpleCanary 5,573]

14 hours ago, S_81 said:

Wagner looked a dead man. At any other club he’d have been long gone.
 

Yes. There is a valid argument about over-sentimentality at the top of the club. But having the reputation of a club that gives head coaches time to succeed is highly valuable. 

[Fen Canary 851]

18 hours ago, Michael Starr said:

We beat Ipswich today but ultimately, we are where we should be under any coach with this set of players. Top 6. He's got us there. I wouldn't say he's been brilliant. He's been on par over the course of a season on what was expected of him. That's what has kept him in his job. Top 6. I would say that with a better head coach, we would have perhaps already secured top 6 by now.

It’s amazing isn’t it. When we were struggling below mid table it was because Webber had assembled a squad that was nowhere near good enough to be challenging for the playoffs.

Now we are challenging for the playoffs and now suddenly it’s a squad that is supposedly one of the strongest in the league and top 6 is the minimum we should expect from these players, Wagner doesn’t deserve credit for our current placing.

Some people just always have to have a criticism don’t they! 

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

36 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

 

I s RVD any sort of answer is the big question.

Only if the question is, "What's the worst possible attempt at spelling SVH?"

[Corbs1 90]

15 hours ago, S_81 said:

Wagner looked a dead man. At any other club he’d have been long gon

Just not true, a lazy trope

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Only if the question is, "What's the worst possible attempt at spelling SVH?"

I call him Rodney Van Donk thanks and will continue to do so until I am, hopefully, proved to be wrong.

[Robert N. LiM 4,429]

12 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I call him Rodney Van Donk thanks and will continue to do so until I am, hopefully, proved to be wrong

Haha, excellent. That is of course your right as a freeborn Englishman 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,565]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes. There is a valid argument about over-sentimentality at the top of the club. But having the reputation of a club that gives head coaches time to succeed is highly valuable. 

I don't think there is too much over-sentimentality at the top of the club. The club stuck with Farke against the will of a lot of doubters and it turned out a good decision. Smith only went because a section of fans really made it clear that they simply wouldn't stop kicking and screaming until he'd gone, even though he'd had us in the auto slots before injuries derailed things. Wagner was lucky that the miseries were more intent on abusing Webber than they were Wagner when things got to their worst, which was far worse than things got under Smith, and yet, Wagner has now got us into a great position, demonstrating the fans were completely wrong to write off Wagne, and I'll freely admit that for the first time ever, I'd written him off as well.

I think there was too much sentimentality about Farke among some fans after he'd been with us a long time.

It all points to one thing: Fans just don't know as much as they think they do and should trust the judgement of those in the club who know the details of what's going on rather than simply hounding managers simply on results and the 'eye test'.

Edited April 7 by littleyellowbirdie