Bali Mumba

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

I mean I think Fisher will be better in the future but why we thought someone who's only played in non leuage would improve our defence I don't know

Simply put, we didn't. The view was that neither were good enough for our first choice starting 11 but could be useful in case of injuries, tiredness etc. The economics made Fisher so much cheaper for the 245 minutes of League action required.

The simple question is do you want a big squad of average players or a squad of a few above average players and a larger number of below average players making up the numbers.

[king canary 7,609]

He's a good young player we should have kept. The fact he isn't lighting the division on fire in a poor team doesn't change my view on that. 

[Captain Holt 522]

Long term it may be the right decision, but in the short time he'd have been a very useful squad option.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

1 hour ago, Captain Holt said:

Long term it may be the right decision, but in the short time he'd have been a very useful squad option.

When would he have been a useful short term option???

He's not fit to lace Rowe's boots - he's not fit to lace Sainz's boots. He's not fit to lace Stacey's boots - he's clearly not at the same level as either Gianoullis or McCallum. 

(And he remains the only player in the whole Championship to have conceded a penalty this season by having to resort to fouling Onel Hernandez 😅)

[Newtopia 517]

Genuinely he would have helped significantly during the current winger shortage of 2024, would you rather have received the transfer funds for Mumba, and spent the transfer fee on Fassnachet or kept Bali.  There is no way to check the decision but the latter still appeals to me.  Equally I do understand the rationale for allowing him to leave when we did, it just seemed cheap and we replaced him with someone who doesn’t really proved energy or incision in the same way. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

I think I may have been a little unfair to Mumba in my post above - there's one area of the game where he's clearly better than any member of our first team squad. 

Collecting yellow cards. 🤣

[Newtopia 517]

3 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

When would he have been a useful short term option???

He's not fit to lace Rowe's boots - he's not fit to lace Sainz's boots. He's not fit to lace Stacey's boots - he's clearly not at the same level as either Gianoullis or McCallum. 

(And he remains the only player in the whole Championship to have conceded a penalty this season by having to resort to fouling Onel Hernandez 😅)

Currently he would be filling the right wing role rather than us playing Sara there is a weird composite version of a winger.

[hogesar 9,685]

4 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Why do I need to "speak to any of the current NCFC coaching staff", or indeed listen to some bloke on a forum, when Wagner himself literally told us this 6 days after Mumba was sold?

https://www.pinkun.com/news/23681062.norwich-city-wagner-kellen-fisher-impact-bali-mumba-sale/

 

Because Wagner saying something to publicly placate the fans isn't exactly the evidence you seem to think it is. 😅😅

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

6 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

Genuinely he would have helped significantly during the current winger shortage of 2024, would you rather have received the transfer funds for Mumba, and spent the transfer fee on Fassnachet or kept Bali.  There is no way to check the decision but the latter still appeals to me.  Equally I do understand the rationale for allowing him to leave when we did, it just seemed cheap and we replaced him with someone who doesn’t really proved energy or incision in the same way. 

I'm really stumped on this one. 

Fassnacht - minutes played 1656 - Goals scored 6.

Mumba - minutes played - 2378 - Goals scored 2.

Impossible to decide based on those stats..............................🤣🤣

[Nuff Said 5,146]

People are ignoring that Bali wanted game time and keeping him as backup wouldn’t have provided that. We could have ignored his wishes, but I can’t see that would have improved him any.

[king canary 7,609]

13 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I'm really stumped on this one. 

Fassnacht - minutes played 1656 - Goals scored 6.

Mumba - minutes played - 2378 - Goals scored 2.

Impossible to decide based on those stats..............................🤣🤣

Anybody trying to decide based simply of that stat is being a bit stupid to be honest.

Yes Fassnacht has popped up with a few goals. Mumba however has been significantly more creative for his teammates on a per game basis despite being shunted around all over the pitch.

Edited March 21 by king canary

[Google Bot 3,278]

35 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

When would he have been a useful short term option???

I was sad that he was leaving but that was more on the basis that previous season was torrid, whereas he'd had a great one, albeit at L1.  The idea of bringing fresh/confident 'in form' players was attractive for me. 

But based on the reasoning from Wagner I was ok with it at the time, and could justify that he wanted game-time and Plymouth wanting him.

However, when we were then repurposing PP to play as a fullback a few months later, at that point I felt that we had made a serious mistake.

For me this is similar to the Tzolis situation where we've kept lower quality players as no-one was willing to pay money for them, and why the depth of quality in this squad drops off beyond the starting 11.

Edited March 21 by Google Bot

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

29 minutes ago, king canary said:

Anybody trying to decide based simply of that stat is being a bit stupid to be honest.

Yes Fassnacht has popped up with a few goals. Mumba however has been significantly more creative for his teammates on a per game basis despite being shunted around all over the pitch.

No, no, you're right...... scoring goals is just soooooooooooooo overrated. That Josh Sargent is utter gash. All he ever does is score goals. How many assists has he got? 😅🤣

[king canary 7,609]

1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

No, no, you're right...... scoring goals is just soooooooooooooo overrated. That Josh Sargent is utter gash. All he ever does is score goals. How many assists has he got? 😅🤣

Emi Buendia scored a goal ever 361 minutes for us.

Chrsitian Fassnacht has scored a goal every 272 minutes for us.

So by your logic Fassnacht is the better player right? 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

26 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I was sad that he was leaving but that was more on the basis that previous season was torrid, whereas he'd had a great one, albeit at L1.  The idea of bringing fresh/confident 'in form' players was attractive for me. 

But based on the reasoning from Wagner I was ok with it at the time, and could justify that he wanted game-time and Plymouth wanting him.

However, when we were then repurposing PP to play as a fullback a few months later, at that point I felt that we had made a serious mistake.

For me this is similar to the Tzolis situation where we've kept lower quality players as no-one was willing to pay money for them, and why the depth of quality in this squad drops off beyond the starting 11.

PP played a few sub minutes as a left back and the away game at Cardiff which we won anyway. Wagner then realised that it was a bad idea and ditched it. Hardly a serious mistake. 

[king canary 7,609]

28 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I was sad that he was leaving but that was more on the basis that previous season was torrid, whereas he'd had a great one, albeit at L1.  The idea of bringing fresh/confident 'in form' players was attractive for me. 

But based on the reasoning from Wagner I was ok with it at the time, and could justify that he wanted game-time and Plymouth wanting him.

However, when we were then repurposing PP to play as a fullback a few months later, at that point I felt that we had made a serious mistake.

For me this is similar to the Tzolis situation where we've kept lower quality players as no-one was willing to pay money for them, and why the depth of quality in this squad drops off beyond the starting 11.

I don't think it just Placheta either- between him and Hernandez they've made 16 starts and 30 sub appearances, totalling over 1500 minutes. Personally I'd rather have seen those minutes go to someone like Mumba with a much higher long term upside than two players we know aren't really good enough.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Emi Buendia scored a goal ever 361 minutes for us.

Chrsitian Fassnacht has scored a goal every 272 minutes for us.

So by your logic Fassnacht is the better player right? 

You're looking a bit desperate here. Nobody said anybody anything about Buendia did they? We're comparing Fassnacht with Mumba. A wide player who scores goals at the rate Fassnacht does is a pretty valuable commodity wouldn't you say?  (And you're silent on Mumba's pretty poor disciplinary record - the one facet of his game which is similar to Emi's).

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Fassnacht's done quite well, and he brings more to the table defensively than Mumba. He's just not the pacey dribbler who can excite a crowd like Mumba is.

Edited March 21 by TheGunnShow

[king canary 7,609]

Just now, Thirsty Lizard said:

You're looking a bit desperate here. Nobody said anybody anything about Buendia did they? We're comparing Fassnacht with Mumba. A wide player who scores goals at the rate Fassnacht does is a pretty valuable commodity wouldn't you say?  (And you're silent on Mumba's pretty poor disciplinary record - the one facet of his game which is similar to Emi's).

No, I was pointing out that just going 'more goals means better player!' is simplistic nonsense. Your post I was replying to mentions nothing about his disciplinary record, just goals and minutes which is a stupid way to assess a player. 

[Google Bot 3,278]

2 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

PP played a few sub minutes as a left back and the away game at Cardiff which we won anyway. Wagner then realised that it was a bad idea and ditched it. Hardly a serious mistake. 

That's not the point I was making, though.  It was rather that part of the justification to sell him was undermined when we sought to repurpose PP.  Therefore the reason PP was here was because no-one wanted to buy him, unlike Bali, who's more natural position it was.

That's not even to mention the potential that Bali has, and the interview Webber done last season implying that PP could not operate to instructions.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

No, I was pointing out that just going 'more goals means better player!' is simplistic nonsense. Your post I was replying to mentions nothing about his disciplinary record, just goals and minutes which is a stupid way to assess a player. 

No - wrong again - is certainly isn't a stupid way to assess a player - it's the most important single metric for assessing attacking players. There are other important ones too such as assists and chances created etc.

This whole thread is a great example of Pinkun parallel universe nonsense to be honest. Mumba made it crystal clear before this season started that he wanted first team football now - fair enough, that's his perogative - but there was no way that he was going to get in ahead of Rowe, Sainz, Stacey, Gianoullis and McCallum - and it was pretty debatable whether he was a better bet than Hernandez, Placheta and Fassnacht. Under those circumstances selling him was the correct option. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

10 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

No - wrong again - is certainly isn't a stupid way to assess a player - it's the most important single metric for assessing attacking players. There are other important ones too such as assists and chances created etc.

This whole thread is a great example of Pinkun parallel universe nonsense to be honest. Mumba made it crystal clear before this season started that he wanted first team football now - fair enough, that's his perogative - but there was no way that he was going to get in ahead of Rowe, Sainz, Stacey, Gianoullis and McCallum - and it was pretty debatable whether he was a better bet than Hernandez, Placheta and Fassnacht. Under those circumstances selling him was the correct option. 

Nailed it. Mumba, at this level, is one of those players where you're clearly using a lot of second-rate adjectives to describe him - he's useful, he's decent, he's got something. But what he clearly wasn't and isn't, is a star player at this level.

He did well at Plymouth in the level below, wanted basically to step up but we had quite a bit of talent in similar positions as well as Fisher's emergence in pre-season friendlies as he was initially earmarked for the U21s, not to mention we don't play wing-backs either, so rather than make him unhappy and have that festering around the team selling him was a very logical decision. 

And it's a decision that looks like it's proven to be correct.

[king canary 7,609]

10 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nailed it. Mumba, at this level, is one of those players where you're clearly using a lot of second-rate adjectives to describe him - he's useful, he's decent, he's got something. But what he clearly wasn't and isn't, is a star player at this level.

He did well at Plymouth in the level below, wanted basically to step up but we had quite a bit of talent in similar positions as well as Fisher's emergence in pre-season friendlies as he was initially earmarked for the U21s, not to mention we don't play wing-backs either, so rather than make him unhappy and have that festering around the team selling him was a very logical decision. 

And it's a decision that looks like it's proven to be correct.

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense. Nobody is saying he's a star player but frankly outside of Rowe and Sargent nobody in our squad is. What he is, in my view, is a better player than Onel and Placheta, about as good as Fassnacht and has a significantly higher upside than any of these three when it comes to resale value.

It's mad that you spent ages going on about how Placheta had something, he just needed to be given a shot but when presented with a much better player in Mumba you're fine with him being binned off for a minimal fee. Bizarre.

[king canary 7,609]

27 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

No - wrong again - is certainly isn't a stupid way to assess a player - it's the most important single metric for assessing attacking players. There are other important ones too such as assists and chances created etc.

This whole thread is a great example of Pinkun parallel universe nonsense to be honest. Mumba made it crystal clear before this season started that he wanted first team football now - fair enough, that's his perogative - but there was no way that he was going to get in ahead of Rowe, Sainz, Stacey, Gianoullis and McCallum - and it was pretty debatable whether he was a better bet than Hernandez, Placheta and Fassnacht. Under those circumstances selling him was the correct option. 

Lol.

No it isn't.

This is just silly. 

Robert Earnshaw scored more goals per game for us than Iwan Roberts. Iwan Roberts was undoubtedly the better player for us. 

There was absolutely zero debate if Placheta or Hernandez were better than Mumba, they aren't, hence why nobody was interested in buying either of them.

While I'm not a massive fan of these rating in isolation it is also interesting to note that of the 8 players you've listed as either being clearly better than him or debateably better than him, Sofascore only rates Rowe as being noticeably better than him this season. The idea that its a clear cut and dried argument doesn't remotely hold up.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense. Nobody is saying he's a star player but frankly outside of Rowe and Sargent nobody in our squad is. What he is, in my view, is a better player than Onel and Placheta, about as good as Fassnacht and has a significantly higher upside than any of these three when it comes to resale value.

It's mad that you spent ages going on about how Placheta had something, he just needed to be given a shot but when presented with a much better player in Mumba you're fine with him being binned off for a minimal fee. Bizarre.

I'm afraid in trying to see nonsense in my comment, you've stated a bit in yours.

Mumba wanted regular first-team action, which was perfectly understandable and especially off the season he'd had at Plymouth. However, unless he was a star player he was not going to get it considering the players he was competing against for the spots in question, so the resale argument falls flat simply as players don't gain in value when they don't play. You're not getting past either of our main full-backs, Rowe or Sainz unless you're a very capable player indeed - or indeed a star player. Realistically, he's a number two against all of them. The likes of Onel and Placheta were more willing to hang around and fight for their spot.

I also said Placheta needed a certain set of tactics/circumstances where he would be very useful (and he did quite well at Birmingham on loan), but would also say the fact he's gone is another example of a player whose attributes don't best fit how we play. And the fact that only Plymouth came in for Mumba after a season where he was the EFL League One young player of the season with them is also telling in that he fitted their model under Schumacher very well but plenty didn't think he'd fit elsewhere.

No-one said he's worse than Onel or Placheta, but what is obvious was that Mumba wanted assurances that couldn't be granted, whilst Onel and Placheta were up to try and fight their way in - or as a bare minimum were happier to be squad players instead of regular starters.

Edited March 21 by TheGunnShow

[king canary 7,609]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Mumba wanted regular first-team action, which was perfectly understandable and especially off the season he'd had at Plymouth. However, unless he was a star player he was not going to get it considering the players he was competing against for the spots in question, so the resale argument falls flat simply as players don't gain in value when they don't play. You're not getting past either our our main full-backs, Rowe or Sainz unless you're a very capable player indeed. Realistically, he's a number two against all of them. The likes of Onel and Placheta were more willing to hang around and fight for their spot.

Again though, this doesn't remotely chime with the actual reality.

'He was never going to get ahead of Rowe or Sainz'- the same Sainz who didn't start a game until December? That guy? 

Your version of events seems to rest on the idea Mumba basically said 'I want to start every game and I refuse to compete at all' for which there is no evidence. 

If you look at the minutes we've given to very poor players in positions Mumba plays this season there is no doubt there were minutes here for him. We clearly either did a ****e job of convincing him the opportunity would be here or we didn't think he was worth trying to convince him. The fact Matos left because he reportedly didn't see a chance for himself here and we're hearing similar noises about Aboh suggests the former might be a wider issue.

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

and he did quite well at Birmingham on loan)

Oh and Placheta played 5 times for Birmingham. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

Lol.

No it isn't.

This is just silly. 

Robert Earnshaw scored more goals per game for us than Iwan Roberts. Iwan Roberts was undoubtedly the better player for us. 

There was absolutely zero debate if Placheta or Hernandez were better than Mumba, they aren't, hence why nobody was interested in buying either of them.

While I'm not a massive fan of these rating in isolation it is also interesting to note that of the 8 players you've listed as either being clearly better than him or debateably better than him, Sofascore only rates Rowe as being noticeably better than him this season. The idea that its a clear cut and dried argument doesn't remotely hold up.

So Sofascore doesn't rate Sainz as being noticeably better than Mumba????

Really???

What do you think?

 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Again though, this doesn't remotely chime with the actual reality.

'He was never going to get ahead of Rowe or Sainz'- the same Sainz who didn't start a game until December? That guy? 

Your version of events seems to rest on the idea Mumba basically said 'I want to start every game and I refuse to compete at all' for which there is no evidence. 

If you look at the minutes we've given to very poor players in positions Mumba plays this season there is no doubt there were minutes here for him. We clearly either did a ****e job of convincing him the opportunity would be here or we didn't think he was worth trying to convince him. The fact Matos left because he reportedly didn't see a chance for himself here and we're hearing similar noises about Aboh suggests the former might be a wider issue.

Oh and Placheta played 5 times for Birmingham. 

Yeah, the same Sainz that got injured in pre-season. And Wagner's been quoted as saying Fisher's emergence in pre-season was why he was happy to sell Mumba (as this piece from late July 2023 states).

Wagner himself there is quoted as saying he wasn't sure how much game time Mumba would have got.

Norwich City: Wagner on Kellen Fisher impact and Bali Mumba sale | Eastern Daily Press (edp24.co.uk)

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Again though, this doesn't remotely chime with the actual reality.

'He was never going to get ahead of Rowe or Sainz'- the same Sainz who didn't start a game until December? That guy? 

Your version of events seems to rest on the idea Mumba basically said 'I want to start every game and I refuse to compete at all' for which there is no evidence. 

If you look at the minutes we've given to very poor players in positions Mumba plays this season there is no doubt there were minutes here for him. We clearly either did a ****e job of convincing him the opportunity would be here or we didn't think he was worth trying to convince him. The fact Matos left because he reportedly didn't see a chance for himself here and we're hearing similar noises about Aboh suggests the former might be a wider issue.

Oh and Placheta played 5 times for Birmingham. 

Chelsea fan Matos left to play for Chelsea who no doubt offered to pay him far more than we were able to offer him.

You may have heard of the massive finanacial disparity in football these days between the Premier League and the rest.

(Obviously Matos and his agent are going to come up with some PR b**llocks about pathways blah, blah, blah to justify grabbing the money aren't they?).

[Google Bot 3,278]

18 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

No-one said he's worse than Onel or Placheta, but what is obvious was that Mumba wanted assurances that couldn't be granted, whilst Onel and Placheta were up to try and fight their way in.

So because he was more hungry than Onel and PP, he's no longer here?  Not sure that sounds too good from a management perspective.

For me it's entirely about money and Bali having a cash-in value on his head.  Otherwise, (IMO) Onel/PP should've been moved on and Mumba dangled a carrot, those are the types of assurances that can be granted.

Put it this way, if Reyes wanted assurances on his future here would you keep Long ahead of him?  It's a similar concept.

Edited March 21 by Google Bot