We need to talk about The System

[Petriix 2,838]

I was extremely critical of Wagner's midfield system earlier in the season so I feel it's only right to give some credit for the incredible reversal into what we're witnessing now. Where previously there were huge holes and regular systemic failures leading to positional errors and overloads (underloads?), now we are seeing a solid defensive structure from which we're able to transition with deadly speed to create chance after chance. Well done David Wagner. 

Many of us were calling for Sara to play further forwards, ideally at number 10. We weren't right, but we weren't entirely wrong. The tweaked midfield now features Sara and Sainz as the wide AMs where we previously had Rowe and Hernandez. I'm not certain how much of the change can be attributed to the personnel, but there's a significant narrowing of those midfield roles. 

The consequences are significant:

1. Now we retain more control in the crucial central area and have far better defensive cover from the deeper midfielders because the attacking players are a deeper and narrower. 
2. There's a huge amount of space for our fullbacks to overlap into and less danger from doing so (because of point 1 above). 

It's obviously not perfect. We still have vulnerabilities, but the overall structure is far more coherent with better defined roles and consistently more reliable positioning. A far cry from watching Onel loitering on halfway. 

I still have concerns about the depth of the squad because the backup options are significantly weaker, but the first 11 is really good at this point in time. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,374]

Yes, bang on, especially about the positioning of the inverted wingers (with the stress on the 'inverted').

Obviously it helps when the opposition are as rubbish as Rotherham and Stoke, but very promising [wait for it] Sainz.

[Robert N. LiM 4,374]

Said it elsewhere, but like Sara in today's position much better than at number 10. Best of all worlds: less defensive responsibility than before, but still able to arrive late into attacking areas where he's much more difficult to pick up. He looks absolutely lethal against average Championship opposition - be interesting to see how he does against Leicester and the binners.

[Well b back 3,208]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, bang on, especially about the positioning of the inverted wingers (with the stress on the 'inverted').

Obviously it helps when the opposition are as rubbish as Rotherham and Stoke, but very promising [wait for it] Sainz.

You sure you are not taking away some of the credit that should be heaped on us, Stokes 3 games before us saw a 2:0 home win against Middlesbrough an unlucky 1:0 loss at Leeds and a 2:1 win at Preston

[Robert N. LiM 4,374]

16 minutes ago, Well b back said:

You sure you are not taking away some of the credit that should be heaped on us, Stokes 3 games before us saw a 2:0 home win against Middlesbrough an unlucky 1:0 loss at Leeds and a 2:1 win at Preston

Yeah, fair enough. Just to be clear, I'm loving it. Really enjoying the style of play and excited by lots of our players. It's just hard wired in me not to get carried away.

[hogesar 9,676]

The problem is, was and always have been depth. 3 or 4 key injuries and we don't have the quality of profile or player to replicate Wagners system. 

The system itself is relatively championship-unique at the moment but most importantly it weaponises our main attacking assets.

[Yobocop 1,099]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

I was extremely critical of Wagner's midfield system earlier in the season so I feel it's only right to give some credit for the incredible reversal into what we're witnessing now. Where previously there were huge holes and regular systemic failures leading to positional errors and overloads (underloads?), now we are seeing a solid defensive structure from which we're able to transition with deadly speed to create chance after chance. Well done David Wagner. 

Many of us were calling for Sara to play further forwards, ideally at number 10. We weren't right, but we weren't entirely wrong. The tweaked midfield now features Sara and Sainz as the wide AMs where we previously had Rowe and Hernandez. I'm not certain how much of the change can be attributed to the personnel, but there's a significant narrowing of those midfield roles. 

The consequences are significant:

1. Now we retain more control in the crucial central area and have far better defensive cover from the deeper midfielders because the attacking players are a deeper and narrower. 
2. There's a huge amount of space for our fullbacks to overlap into and less danger from doing so (because of point 1 above). 

It's obviously not perfect. We still have vulnerabilities, but the overall structure is far more coherent with better defined roles and consistently more reliable positioning. A far cry from watching Onel loitering on halfway. 

I still have concerns about the depth of the squad because the backup options are significantly weaker, but the first 11 is really good at this point in time. 

I don’t think it’s any coincidence our change in fortune has been since our injured players have come back in particular Josh Sargent 

When many said our poor form had nothing to do with the injuries, perhaps can eat their words a bit now?  

[Hairy Canary 704]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The problem is, was and always have been depth. 3 or 4 key injuries and we don't have the quality of profile or player to replicate Wagners system. 

The system itself is relatively championship-unique at the moment but most importantly it weaponises our main attacking assets.

I’m absolutely with you but we already have Duffy, Giannoulis, Rowe, Onel, and Hanley out. Another 3 or 4 would be unbelievably unlucky. Hopefully with the international break coming up we should have more bodies available rather than less. Duffy for a start.

[Robert N. LiM 4,374]

37 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

He looks absolutely lethal against average Championship opposition - be interesting to see how he does against Leicester and the binners.

Just picking up on this. I said it about Sara but actually I think it applies to us as a side. In our recent run I thought our best performance was the first 30 mins at Boro. Without the Sainz red we could be on a really, really excellent run. Earlier in the season I was quite concerned about how our system would fare against the top sides but I'm looking forward to the Leicester and bin games now. Think we can give them both something to think about, which I really didn't think earlier in the season. Much more optimistic about the derby than I was before the away game.

[Well b back 3,208]

1 minute ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yeah, fair enough. Just to be clear, I'm loving it. Really enjoying the style of play and excited by lots of our players. It's just hard wired in me not to get carried away.

A bit like Farke the one year, through injuries Wagner has fallen into his best starting 11 and the way the players fall into the system.

The only worry I have is further injuries as due to injuries our bench is looking very thin, so can everyone stay fit for 11 games ? 

[repman 635]

5 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Just picking up on this. I said it about Sara but actually I think it applies to us as a side. In our recent run I thought our best performance was the first 30 mins at Boro. Without the Sainz red we could be on a really, really excellent run. Earlier in the season I was quite concerned about how our system would fare against the top sides but I'm looking forward to the Leicester and bin games now. Think we can give them both something to think about, which I really didn't think earlier in the season. Much more optimistic about the derby than I was before the away game.

I just hope we don’t show Leicester and Ipswich too much respect. We’re good enough to hurt any team in this league, but far too often (in particular away from home) we’ve played as if we’re the lesser side. As you say the first 30 at Boro and today have both been good performances, but the big difference in those to even the games at QPR and Blackburn was the positivity. Today we turned up and played football, for most of the season we’ve done the opposite. Obviously there were reasons for that, namely the Plymouth drubbing and Wagner being under pressure (managers are inherently risk-averse). 

When we play positivity we give ourselves a much bigger chance of winning imo, while admittedly we leave ourselves vulnerable to lose by 3 or 4 but I think over the season we’d be better off for it. 

[Google Bot 3,278]

With the players available we've always looked far more fluid and see the system for what it is.  It seems that we've now found our confidence after a torrid 2 year period and it's paying dividends in regards to our ability to not give the ball away or looking like sheep in the headlights

Long may it continue, and i'm so pleased for Wagner who's come under some really harsh criticism and good on the club for sticking with their man.  It seems that he has changed tact across this season and we're now playing a higher quality of football and it's great to see us passing it around with flair.

However, it needs pointing out that as good as things are, we're in a precarious position due to the importance of players like Gunn, Sarge, Sainz and Sara.  Losing either one of those could have quite a negative impact.  But that's the cards as dealt.

[lake district canary 4,533]

It's relatively simple -

1. You accommodate your best three midfielders in the team and lo and behold, midfield looks good. (Sara, Nunez, Mclean)

2. You have three excellent players in attack (Sargent, Sainz, Barnes)

3. You have decent delivery from the CBs and two decent full backs getting forwards whenever possible.

4. A great goalkleeper

5. You play with confidence and belief.

Bingo.

[Monty13 2,235]

2 hours ago, Yobocop said:

I don’t think it’s any coincidence our change in fortune has been since our injured players have come back in particular Josh Sargent 

When many said our poor form had nothing to do with the injuries, perhaps can eat their words a bit now?  

Why’s everything so black and white?

Who actually thought our form was “nothing to do with the injuries”?

The issue people were questioning wasn’t that we were worse because we had injuries, it was that we were so poor with a few key injuries we were producing relegation form.

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

With the players available we've always looked far more fluid and see the system for what it is.  It seems that we've now found our confidence after a torrid 2 year period and it's paying dividends in regards to our ability to not give the ball away or looking like sheep in the headlights

Long may it continue, and i'm so pleased for Wagner who's come under some really harsh criticism and good on the club for sticking with their man.  It seems that he has changed tact across this season and we're now playing a higher quality of football and it's great to see us passing it around with flair.

However, it needs pointing out that as good as things are, we're in a precarious position due to the importance of players like Gunn, Sarge, Sainz and Sara.  Losing either one of those could have quite a negative impact.  But that's the cards as dealt.

I’d add Kenny to those 4 and probably Stacy as well. Losing any one of those 6 on their current form could be enough to derail us.

[Paul101 93]

all three of Nunez/Sara/kenny  slot into the back three when we attack perfectly if you go back to december you can see the seeds of this system forming

I was a Wagner out from last season but accept I could well have been very wrong

[Petriix 2,838]

2 hours ago, Yobocop said:

I don’t think it’s any coincidence our change in fortune has been since our injured players have come back in particular Josh Sargent 

When many said our poor form had nothing to do with the injuries, perhaps can eat their words a bit now?  

I think there's an interesting correlation between losing both Hernandez and Rowe and ending up with a more coherent midfield system. I think Wagner has tweaked the tactics (or they've naturally evolved) but I also think that players tend towards their natural habits regardless of their instructions. Onel likes to drift high and wide, Sara drifts narrow and deep. 

Yes, Sargent has been massively important, as has his partnership with Barnes, but I think the more interesting changes have happened more recently. 

[Yobocop 1,099]

27 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I think there's an interesting correlation between losing both Hernandez and Rowe and ending up with a more coherent midfield system. I think Wagner has tweaked the tactics (or they've naturally evolved) but I also think that players tend towards their natural habits regardless of their instructions. Onel likes to drift high and wide, Sara drifts narrow and deep. 

Yes, Sargent has been massively important, as has his partnership with Barnes, but I think the more interesting changes have happened more recently. 

Couldn’t agree more 

[repman 635]

52 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Why’s everything so black and white?

Who actually thought our form was “nothing to do with the injuries”?

The issue people were questioning wasn’t that we were worse because we had injuries, it was that we were so poor with a few key injuries we were producing relegation form.

I think that after the Plymouth game Wagner went into more of a preservation mode. The way we set up today was pretty identical to how we started the season, a few personnel differences but the strikers dropping in and fast vertical passes while playing out were the key markers of our success early on.

I think the decision to go away from that and sit back more through that period hurt us more than it helped. We wouldn't have been as good, but I don't think we'd have been relegation form bad as you said. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

I think there's an interesting correlation between losing both Hernandez and Rowe and ending up with a more coherent midfield system. I think Wagner has tweaked the tactics (or they've naturally evolved) but I also think that players tend towards their natural habits regardless of their instructions. Onel likes to drift high and wide, Sara drifts narrow and deep. 

Yes, Sargent has been massively important, as has his partnership with Barnes, but I think the more interesting changes have happened more recently. 

The solidity in the system has come around due to omission of the two purest, most out-and-out wingers.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

At the risk of being seen to blow my own trumpet on this one, I've said for some time we should bin the wingers as it's obvious our full-backs have the physical capacity to get up and down, and they can provide the width we need whilst ensuring that we've got more bodies in the middle to ensure a greater degree of defensive solidity. Many of our problems have come around as simply, the gaps between our players when losing possession have been so gaping that it's been easy for an opposing team to counter them and it's driven us onto the back foot all too easily.

This is a key reason why I wouldn't offer Onel a new contract, as much as you've got to love the guy on a human level and can never remotely doubt his commitment to the cause, but out-and-out wingers make us far too vulnerable out of possession and they also put our full-backs in a pickle as they then have to think in terms of being up or back. A triumvirate of attacking midfielders is already attacking enough, let alone a couple of pure wingers there on top.

This solidity out of possession nowadays is also why we don't miss Rowe.

[BurwellCanary 216]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

At the risk of being seen to blow my own trumpet on this one, I've said for some time we should bin the wingers as it's obvious our full-backs have the physical capacity to get up and down, and they can provide the width we need whilst ensuring that we've got more bodies in the middle to ensure a greater degree of defensive solidity. Many of our problems have come around as simply, the gaps between our players when losing possession have been so gaping that it's been easy for an opposing team to counter them and it's driven us onto the back foot all too easily.

This is a key reason why I wouldn't offer Onel a new contract, as much as you've got to love the guy on a human level and can never remotely doubt his commitment to the cause, but out-and-out wingers make us far too vulnerable out of possession and they also put our full-backs in a pickle as they then have to think in terms of being up or back. A triumvirate of attacking midfielders is already attacking enough, let alone a couple of pure wingers there on top.

This solidity out of possession nowadays is also why we don't miss Rowe.

Shame that Rowe cant play the 10 role (or could he) for when Barnes doesn't

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 hours ago, BurwellCanary said:

Shame that Rowe cant play the 10 role (or could he) for when Barnes doesn't

I don't think he's got the work-rate, but I am willing to be surprised.

Players as explosive as Rowe can't generally put too many hard yards in, or that explosiveness which sets them apart is lost.

[Robert N. LiM 4,374]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

I don't think he's got the work-rate, but I am willing to be surprised.

Players as explosive as Rowe can't generally put too many hard yards in, or that explosiveness which sets them apart is lost.

Might Rowe end up as a number nine? Taking the Cristiano Ronaldo route? Obviously being much less of a bëll-ënd along the way.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, Robert N. LiM said:

Might Rowe end up as a number nine? Taking the Cristiano Ronaldo route? Obviously being much less of a bëll-ënd along the way.

Tough one, as he showed against Hull that he's dangerous on the half-turn given space from deep. There's a bit more to it and this is a bit of a false dichotomy but generally with such explosive types you either have to build the whole team around his attributes or he's an impact sub.

Could see him as a free-roaming sort of number 9 in the future.

[Google Bot 3,278]

3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

At the risk of being seen to blow my own trumpet on this one, I've said for some time we should bin the wingers as it's obvious our full-backs have the physical capacity to get up and down, and they can provide the width we need whilst ensuring that we've got more bodies in the middle to ensure a greater degree of defensive solidity.

Sainz has been pivotal to our recent success though?  Our issue has been the standard of our wide players, not the fact that we play them.  That over-ride on either flank is a massive threat, as we've demonstrated when on our game.

[Capt. Pants 4,237]

3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

At the risk of being seen to blow my own trumpet on this one, I've said for some time we should bin the wingers as it's obvious our full-backs have the physical capacity to get up and down, and they can provide the width we need whilst ensuring that we've got more bodies in the middle to ensure a greater degree of defensive solidity. Many of our problems have come around as simply, the gaps between our players when losing possession have been so gaping that it's been easy for an opposing team to counter them and it's driven us onto the back foot all too easily.

This is a key reason why I wouldn't offer Onel a new contract, as much as you've got to love the guy on a human level and can never remotely doubt his commitment to the cause, but out-and-out wingers make us far too vulnerable out of possession and they also put our full-backs in a pickle as they then have to think in terms of being up or back. A triumvirate of attacking midfielders is already attacking enough, let alone a couple of pure wingers there on top.

This solidity out of possession nowadays is also why we don't miss Rowe.

It would have been nice to have Rowe as an option off the bench if chasing a game. 

Injuries to Rowe and Hernandez have made our midfield more solid and arguably more creative with Sara especially in a more advanced role.

Fingers crossed Stacey can stay fit as he is an absolute machine at the moment. Same applies to Sainz.

[hogesar 9,676]

10 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I don't think he's got the work-rate, but I am willing to be surprised.

Players as explosive as Rowe can't generally put too many hard yards in, or that explosiveness which sets them apart is lost.

Rowe can play in a similar way to Sainz though, their style lends to playing an inside forward role well.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, Google Bot said:

Sainz has been pivotal to our recent success though?  Our issue has been the standard of our wide players, not the fact that we play them.  That over-ride on either flank is a massive threat, as we've demonstrated when on our game.

Sainz is hardly a traditional winger though, he's essentially a multi-purpose attacking midfielder. He might start quite wide, but he comes in a lot. You're right re. the overlap on each side, but often the full-back provides the width, which brings it back to a point I made earlier - the midfielders are closer together if the ball is turned over and we're more solid as a result.

[Google Bot 3,278]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Sainz is hardly a traditional winger though, he's essentially a multi-purpose attacking midfielder. He might start quite wide, but he comes in a lot.

You can not apply 'traditional' positions to the modern game, how many wingers get to the byline and put balls into the box now?  They're mainly inverted and the full backs allow the space through overloading.

Likewise, a modern winger tracks back and supports the full-back too.  All these are Sainz's qualities.

Rowe is too selfish and lacks the stamina to come close to supporting the team, and Onel just lacks the quality.  This is why we look better as a team when they're both outside of it.  If I had my way Onel, PP & Springett would've been sent out start of season and we'd have Tzolis in the mix as a much higher quality player too.

I don't see anything wrong with this system, and I certainly wouldn't be claiming that removing wingers like Sainz would be a good idea.  It always comes down to quality of player.  Man City could play long ball and still smash teams.