Mr Bates v The Post Office

[A Load of Squit 5,247]

21 hours ago, Herman said:

ITV's next few series lined up, hopefully.

Mr Bates Versus The Brexit Conmen.

Mr Bates Versus The PPE Suppliers.

Mr Bates Versus The Water Companies.

etc. etc. etc.

Feargal Sharkey V The Water Companies should definitely be filmed.

 

[Nuff Said 5,254]

To an extent, I take @Barbe bleu’s point about this not being a party political issue. While I understand people’s desire to see some impact on those ultimately in charge and who benefit from huge rewards and things like gongs, we need to be able to understand better how much of what was going on was visible, whether it’s Ed Davey or Paula Vennells. If experienced staff tell you everything is under control and OK, you will sometimes have to take them at their word. Clearly there will come a time when you have to ask why you are seeing what you are seeing, but it does depend on you being told. Simply sacking the person at the top every time there’s some of of scandal, whether in a public body or a private organisation, is simplistic and possibly counterproductive.

 

Having said that (worth reading the whole thread, as long as you don’t already have high blood pressure): 

 

[Nuff Said 5,254]

8 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Feargal Sharkey V The Water Companies should definitely be filmed.

 

Wasn’t that on Alan Partridge’s Monkey Tennis list of TV programmes? 🤨 

 

[Well b back 3,310]

Vennells handing her CBE back !.

Disgrace she should have had it removed before she could take the facing way out.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

12 hours ago, sonyc said:

From today's The Knowledge (an aggregate daily newsletter)...

The Post Office scandal: a sign of things to come

It should not have taken an ITV drama – Mr Bates vs the Post Office – to shame politicians into caring about the Horizon IT scandal, says The Independent. Due to a software glitch, more than 700 subpostmasters were falsely accused and convicted of having their fingers in the till. Many were jailed; others were bankrupted. “At least four died by suicide.” For years the Post Office and Fujitsu, the Japanese firm responsible for the tech, did everything they could to “obfuscate and deny justice”. Politicians and civil servants utterly failed to hold the organisation to account, not least Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey – as postal affairs minister when the issues came to light in 2010, he had a chance, “rarely for a Lib Dem”, to actually do something. The government must ensure not only that victims “receive belated justice”, but also that “those guilty of wrongdoing are held responsible”.

What’s scary, says Hugo Rifkind in The Times, is that Horizon is just one example of many. In recent years, all around the world, automated systems designed to spot fraud have ended up making baseless accusations. In Michigan, a computer falsely accused 34,000 people of welfare fraud between 2013 and 2015. More recently, in Australia, the so-called “Robodebt” scandal saw fines issued to 470,000 people on benefits, leading to at least three suicides. The problem in these cases wasn’t just the “abrupt, unfair demand for life-ruining sums”. It was that when the innocent victims tried to talk to an actual human to put things right, they found there wasn’t one. And the more we automate, the fewer people there will be who understand what’s going on. For now, there is still some guilty techie lurking behind the code. “Hound them. Blame them. Just as importantly, though, make sure they’re always there.”

Wait until AI systems are commonplace. will be ten times worse.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

And now we learn that the CPS also handled some of the convictions during the time that Starmer was head of the CPS. 

So we have a full house of all the major political parties involved in this most terrible party. 

 

I maintain for a long time that there is very little difference between any of the main parties and the people who make up the leadership of these parties are all drawn from the same pool. And with a few exceptions that pool is a distinctly different pool to the one you or I inhabit. 

So whether it is water companies polluting rivers, Staffordshire hospitals, HS2, ULEZ or Covid PPE it comes down to the same group of people acting for their own self interests instead of the interests of the people. It's time we put aside our petty squabbles and direct our ire at the elite that rule us and their hangers on. What happens in the Post Office scandal is just evil and we there are other examples such as chemically castrating our kids, and we have to stop it

[Sheva 125]

8 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

And now we learn that the CPS also handled some of the convictions during the time that Starmer was head of the CPS. 

So we have a full house of all the major political parties involved in this most terrible party. 

 

I maintain for a long time that there is very little difference between any of the main parties and the people who make up the leadership of these parties are all drawn from the same pool. And with a few exceptions that pool is a distinctly different pool to the one you or I inhabit. 

So whether it is water companies polluting rivers, Staffordshire hospitals, HS2, ULEZ or Covid PPE it comes down to the same group of people acting for their own self interests instead of the interests of the people. It's time we put aside our petty squabbles and direct our ire at the elite that rule us and their hangers on. What happens in the Post Office scandal is just evil and we there are other examples such as chemically castrating our kids, and we have to stop it

Let’s not stop here!

People need to find their voice, stand up and call out these corrupt self serving bastards, where ever they might be.

[dylanisabaddog 5,062]

19 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

And now we learn that the CPS also handled some of the convictions during the time that Starmer was head of the CPS. 

So we have a full house of all the major political parties involved in this most terrible party. 

 

I maintain for a long time that there is very little difference between any of the main parties and the people who make up the leadership of these parties are all drawn from the same pool. And with a few exceptions that pool is a distinctly different pool to the one you or I inhabit. 

So whether it is water companies polluting rivers, Staffordshire hospitals, HS2, ULEZ or Covid PPE it comes down to the same group of people acting for their own self interests instead of the interests of the people. It's time we put aside our petty squabbles and direct our ire at the elite that rule us and their hangers on. What happens in the Post Office scandal is just evil and we there are other examples such as chemically castrating our kids, and we have to stop it

The CPS were involved in around 30 out of 750 cases. It's unlikely that Starmer knew anything about it. The head of the CPS rarely gets involved in individual cases. 

I think it's a bit daft for any politician from either side to be blamed here. They can reasonably expect whoever was running the post office to behave honestly. The people to blame here are senior management of the Post Office. 

As regards politicians from both sides coming 'from the same pool', I'm afraid that's nonsense. The Conservative Party is run by a small group of people who attended 2 or 3 exclusive private schools. The Labour Party isn't. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

9 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The CPS were involved in around 30 out of 750 cases. It's unlikely that Starmer knew anything about it. The head of the CPS rarely gets involved in individual cases. 

I think it's a bit daft for any politician from either side to be blamed here. They can reasonably expect whoever was running the post office to behave honestly. The people to blame here are senior management of the Post Office. 

As regards politicians from both sides coming 'from the same pool', I'm afraid that's nonsense. The Conservative Party is run by a small group of people who attended 2 or 3 exclusive private schools. The Labour Party isn't. 

Starmer  - Oxford, Reeves - Oxford, Lammy- Harvard, Cooper - Oxford and Harvard, Mamood - Oxford, Healey- Cambridge, Milliband- Oxford, Kendal- Cambridge, Streeting- Cambridge, Philipson- Oxford. I could check more but from the top Labour posts only Angela Raynor could be described as a working class person. As you can see if you remove you blinkers Oxbridge dominates just as it does for the Tory cabinet.  My claim that the elite positions in this country are filled by people from the same pool is correct. Labour is no exception

[Herman 9,865]

If the claim is that they are all as bad as each other then you clearly haven't been paying attention. And since you haven't been paying attention please don't vote. 

[Yellow Fever 3,852]

The blame for the politicians surely is not the wrongful convictions themselves (the Post Office and the courts need to look at that) - but the horrendous delays in correcting the miscarriage of justice once the full Horizon problem was identified (A decade plus).

That they've had to be shamed by an ITV drama into action says it all.

 

 

[dylanisabaddog 5,062]

45 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Starmer  - Oxford, Reeves - Oxford, Lammy- Harvard, Cooper - Oxford and Harvard, Mamood - Oxford, Healey- Cambridge, Milliband- Oxford, Kendal- Cambridge, Streeting- Cambridge, Philipson- Oxford. I could check more but from the top Labour posts only Angela Raynor could be described as a working class person. As you can see if you remove you blinkers Oxbridge dominates just as it does for the Tory cabinet.  My claim that the elite positions in this country are filled by people from the same pool is correct. Labour is no exception

So what that Starmer went to Oxford? He was state educated. 

[Nuff Said 5,254]

18 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

So what that Starmer went to Oxford? He was state educated. 

Just more liberal baiting rubbish from RTB trying to get a response. You might as well say they are all British citizens, or over 40, or some ballocks about their star sign. I imagine 90% of the population used a Post Office during the scandal, does that make us guilty too?
 

I've said previously, the “they’re all as bad as each other” argument is lazy and stupid, wheeled out by those who can’t be 4rsed to spend 5 minutes putting in a fraction of the effort that those who do serve the public invest. The same argument doesn’t seem to apply to the police force or business owners strangely.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

So what that Starmer went to Oxford? He was state educated. 

You simply don't want to acknowledge the point that the senior members of all three parties went to the same Oxbridge universities. They mainly studied the same subjects and probably attended the same classes. No doubt they even shared the same professors. 

Now add to this the fact that since the second world war every Parliament has had fewer members with non-political careers before entering Parliament (and this is true for all Parties) then you can see how we end up today with a Parliament of like-minded people across both sides of the Commons

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

2 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Just more liberal baiting rubbish from RTB trying to get a response. You might as well say they are all British citizens, or over 40, or some ballocks about their star sign. I imagine 90% of the population used a Post Office during the scandal, does that make us guilty too?
 

I've said previously, the “they’re all as bad as each other” argument is lazy and stupid, wheeled out by those who can’t be 4rsed to spend 5 minutes putting in a fraction of the effort that those who do serve the public invest. The same argument doesn’t seem to apply to the police force or business owners strangely.

Unfortunately you are unable to put forward any argument at all, mere gibberish

 

However, your use of the word liberal rather gives the game away. That is what you all are these days, liberals. 

Edited January 10 by Rock The Boat

[dylanisabaddog 5,062]

4 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

You simply don't want to acknowledge the point that the senior members of all three parties went to the same Oxbridge universities. They mainly studied the same subjects and probably attended the same classes. No doubt they even shared the same professors. 

Now add to this the fact that since the second world war every Parliament has had fewer members with non-political careers before entering Parliament (and this is true for all Parties) then you can see how we end up today with a Parliament of like-minded people across both sides of the Commons

Oh dear. Starmer went to Oxford because he is highly intelligent. He earned his place on merit and he studied Law. 

You don't understand how Eton works do you? 

[Nuff Said 5,254]

2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Unfortunately you are unable to put forward any argument at all, mere gibberish

The irony is… well, massively ironic.

Edited January 10 by Nuff Said

[Well b back 3,310]

On no less than 24 occasions the post office made promises they did not keep, and even when found guilty they tried to blame the judge for being bias ( recognise that story ). When each of those promises were broken, there were chances to put things right by the government, can you really tell me they didn’t know as much as ITV ?

[Well b back 3,310]

The original Panorama programme from April 2022 is currently being shown on BBC1 as a repeat. Absoloutely no difference in that programme and the ITV programme. 
Pity the public couldn’t have got involved then as clearly the government only got involved when there was public interest enough for them to score points.

[Well b back 3,310]

29 minutes ago, Well b back said:

The original Panorama programme from April 2022 is currently being shown on BBC1 as a repeat. Absoloutely no difference in that programme and the ITV programme. 
Pity the public couldn’t have got involved then as clearly the government only got involved when there was public interest enough for them to score points.

That was even more hard hitting than the ITV programme, they were the actual people, not actors.

Why the hell were actors believed and not the postmasters and mistresses.

[Well b back 3,310]

11 minutes ago, Well b back said:

That was even more hard hitting than the ITV programme, they were the actual people, not actors.

Why the hell were actors believed and not the postmasters and mistresses.

Project Sparrow, had a government representative and they were likely complisent with the decisions made to protect the post office. Fair play to Ian Henderson, but the rest of them ? Happy to carry on protecting the post office until the court of the public spoke.

In the words of the husband appearing on the Panorama programme B*******

Edited January 10 by Well b back

[Well b back 3,310]

The sacking of the independent investigators was even brought up in parliament by Ian Henderson, yet nobody gave a f*** then but now they do to gain points.

Edited January 11 by Well b back

[Herman 9,865]

6 hours ago, Well b back said:

The sacking of the independent investigators was even brought up in parliament by Ian Henderson, yet nobody gave a f*** then but know they do to gain points.

This is what I said will happen with the Grenfell disaster. The initial shock and outrage will quickly get replaced by the very slow and ponderous parliament, courts and inquiries. The outrage will dissipate,a half-arsed report will be published and everyone will walk away with no real punishment or lessons learned.

Toby Jones needs to get busy to get the leaders doing their jobs or there won't be any justice served.

[Herman 9,865]

If you get a chance @Well b back watch the footage of Ian Hislop giving Jake Berry a verbal kicking. I think you will enjoy it. 👍

[A Load of Squit 5,247]

30 minutes ago, Herman said:

If you get a chance @Well b back watch the footage of Ian Hislop giving Jake Berry a verbal kicking. I think you will enjoy it. 👍

Jess Phillips deserves an award for not laughing.

https://www.indy100.com/tv/ian-hislop-tories-post-office

 

[sonyc 5,541]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

This is what I said will happen with the Grenfell disaster. The initial shock and outrage will quickly get replaced by the very slow and ponderous parliament, courts and inquiries. The outrage will dissipate,a half-arsed report will be published and everyone will walk away with no real punishment or lessons learned.

Toby Jones needs to get busy to get the leaders doing their jobs or there won't be any justice served.

To Grenfell, add Hillsborough, the water companies.....that's taking Feargal Sharkey most days to announce where the sewage is... it's Toby Jones as Alan Bates. That's the accountability we get isn't it? And what the class system gives you when all the chickens are finally counted.

Little people don't matter. People like sub postmasters.

It's the David and Goliath story very much alive in 2024 isn't it? 

[horsefly 4,326]

46 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Jess Phillips deserves an award for not laughing.

https://www.indy100.com/tv/ian-hislop-tories-post-office

 

As an emotion, the natural object of anger is injustice (it's what distinguishes it from feelings of frustration, annoyance etc that can look very similar). What is so apparent in Hislop's take down of Berry is the genuine anger that he feels. Very good to see.

[horsefly 4,326]

22 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

And now we learn that the CPS also handled some of the convictions during the time that Starmer was head of the CPS. 

The job of the CPS is to assess whether the evidence provided to them by authorised investigators (i.e. the police, post office etc) is sufficient to make a conviction in a court of law likely and in the public interest. Thus they rely fundamentally on the integrity of the evidence that they don't themselves procure. Judges and juries throughout the land convicted sub-postmasters based on the evidence provided by the Post Office in its private prosecutions. On what grounds would the CPS have judged that a conviction for fraud was unlikely in the 11 cases it prosecuted given the evidence (now known to be fabricated) the Post Office investigators provided? 

BTW The idea that the DPP sees sight of every one of the hundreds of thousands of prosecutions the CPS considers across the country is so absurd it really ought not need stating.

[horsefly 4,326]

What a truly appalling sight to see so many right-wing frauds (Farage etc)  desperate to twist the Post Office scandal into an attack on Starmer rather than seek the accountability of the people at the PO and Fujitsu actually responsible for this grotesque injustice. Utterly shameful naked gaslighting. The victims deserve so much better

[dylanisabaddog 5,062]

I am currently listening to a Post Office investigator being interviewed in the Public Enquiry. It's being broadcast live on Radio 5. He is a disgusting man. And totally incompetent.