Delia Out - Strategy Thread

[Midlands Yellow 4,085]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Maybe. I can't say I care. I just don't like spite, and the treatment of him was pure spite.

You can say, he’s a crap football manager. Nice human being? Yes I think so. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

You can say, he’s a crap football manager. Nice human being? Yes I think so. 

He's not though. He has achieved more than most managers will. The fact that you keep pushing the idea that he's a crap manager is exactly  the spite I'm talking about. You don't get teams promoted and keep them up in the Premier League at all if you're that crap. 

It's just stupid. What are you trying to prove?

Edited December 8, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Midlands Yellow 4,085]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

He's not though. He has achieved more than most managers. Will. The fact that you keep pushing the idea that he's a crap manager is exactlyh the spite I'm talking about. You don't get teams promoted and keep them up in the Premier League at all if you're that crap. 

It's just stupid. What are you trying to prove?

If you can get two others on here to agree Deano is a good manager in the next 24 hours I’ll concede. Good luck with that one. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

Just now, Midlands Yellow said:

If you can get two others on here to agree Deano is a good manager in the next 24 hours I’ll concede. Good luck with that one. 

Look, you were saying he'd never get another decent job before he got the Leicester job, so you've already been wrong once on that score. You're just ridiculous. The fact most of our fans share your weird hostility doesn't make you any more reasonable.

[Fen Canary 871]

On 07/12/2023 at 00:10, ......and Smith must score. said:

Agree with this.

Purely winning doesn’t seem to be the be all and end all anymore. Early doors under Smith we won a lot of games but the football was s*ite. I remember us beating Stoke 3-1 at Carrow Rd and it was dross. Most games we’ve won under Wagner that have been pretty poor too.

There seems to have been a sea change amongst our supporters over recent years. They want to see a bit of style as well as  substance and they haven’t been getting it

Then they’re supporting the wrong club. You can try and play football the right way but ultimately we’re a side that’s spent the last 50 years bouncing between the top two divisions, we haven’t got the funds to always play like Barcelona or Man City. Some sides are going to be more pragmatic than others, and I’m fine with that (as long as it doesn’t turn into a Pulis style long ball affair).

Lets be honest most fans have conveniently forgotten that Farkes first season was largely a dull affair, as we’d play a thousand passes and not get out of our own half and the opposition would all be back behind the ball to nullify any attack. It wasn’t until we had Buendia (and to a lesser extent Cantwell) to unlock those defenses that it turned into a successful system. Trying to recreate that now would be no more successful than how we’re currently doing 

[Midlands Yellow 4,085]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Look, you were saying he'd never get another decent job before he got the Leicester job, so you've already been wrong once on that score. You're just ridiculous. The fact most of our fans share your weird hostility doesn't make you any more reasonable.

Come on be rational. I’m sure he’d like a  job if offered but no half decent club in England are interested. He’s awful and no club in the Championship want to touch him. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

7 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Come on be rational. I’m sure he’d like a  job if offered but no half decent club in England are interested. He’s awful and no club in the Championship want to touch him. 

Here's rational: We were in no danger at all from demotion when Smith was sacked, but fans were still determined to make things so toxic he had to be sacked. We were told anybody could do better. We got Wagner and he has done worse.

Wagner has had three scrappy wins and people seem to be prepared to give him the break that Smith didn't get because he claps the fans, even though he'd taken us to a point where relegation was starting to be a possility you had to think about.

The players are behind Wagner, we've got a few wins, so I'm behind Wagner as well. I'm pleased that more people seem to be rational about it this time around than they were with Smith. I guess it's what happens when you clap the fans.

Like I said, it matters not one jot what jobs he gets, but you've already been wrong on this before, so there's every reason to think you might be wrong again.

Either way, my points about Farke's complete hopelessness in the Premier League are a separate subject.

Edited December 8, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,041]

Dean Smith sucks..........

[Newtopia 519]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Here's rational: We were in no danger at all from demotion when Smith was sacked, but fans were still determined to make things so toxic he had to be sacked. We were told anybody could do better. We got Wagner and he has done worse.

Wagner has had three scrappy wins and people seem to be prepared to give him the break that Smith didn't get because he claps the fans, even though he'd taken us to a point where relegation was starting to be a possility you had to think about.

The players are behind Wagner, we've got a few wins, so I'm behind Wagner as well. I'm pleased that more people seem to be rational about it this time around than they were with Smith. I guess it's what happens when you clap the fans.

Like I said, it matters not one jot what jobs he gets, but you've already been wrong on this before, so there's every reason to think you might be wrong again.

Either way, my points about Farke's complete hopelessness in the Premier League are a separate subject.

I hear your point on stability, and this tactic of trying to force Delia out is just childish - unless people think Attansio is ready to pay for the club or they are personally hoping to buy the club.  
 

With Dean Smith, he was a really poor coach and manager, and I am certain he was appointed on the basis that we could not get someone better.  He did not seem to have a clear style, he didn’t foster the good will of the fans (which as you rightly point of Wagner has done more so), and he chopped and changed personnel / strategy without a clear purpose.  I didn’t dislike him, and cup of tea thing actually made him more relatable.

With Wagner the wheels have fallen off since Sargent got injured, up to that point the strategy and style looked good.  When things started going wrong he has tried to make us more solid, so I feel their is plan in there, but it feels like he doesn’t trust some of the expensive players, and his strategy does seem to like us very open in transition.

[Sufyellow 223]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Farke was our coach for our worst points haul in a season since 1903. He was on target for less points when he was sacked. Top 26 or not, that's abysmal. We may not have had the best players, but we needed to be setting up to grind out wins and win ugly, not try to do what we'd done in the Championship. Farke was simply incompetent on that score. I really don't think anyone in their right mind should wonder why he was sacked.

Those players were rubbish,  I think anyone with a footballing brain could see that , going into that season without a CDM was criminal,  and spending all the money on a bunch of unproven kids was suicidal.  Who bought them? And what has happened in the following 2 years . Fairly obvious the wrong person went. Oh and I actually enjoyed the first prem campaign,  the one where he was given a few million to spend, it was quite fun up until lockdown.  After that results were down to the strongest squad. Who knows we could of gone to Wembley that season if we had a full house in that quarter final of the Fa Cup. And as for the man City win , that was a dream result. 

[Sufyellow 223]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

He's not though. He has achieved more than most managers will. The fact that you keep pushing the idea that he's a crap manager is exactly  the spite I'm talking about. You don't get teams promoted and keep them up in the Premier League at all if you're that crap. 

It's just stupid. What are you trying to prove?

100 plus million helped compared to Farke's 3 million.  Oh and goal line technology being switched off. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

6 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

Those players were rubbish,  I think anyone with a footballing brain could see that , going into that season without a CDM was criminal,  and spending all the money on a bunch of unproven kids was suicidal.  Who bought them? And what has happened in the following 2 years . Fairly obvious the wrong person went. Oh and I actually enjoyed the first prem campaign,  the one where he was given a few million to spend, it was quite fun up until lockdown.  After that results were down to the strongest squad. Who knows we could of gone to Wembley that season if we had a full house in that quarter final of the Fa Cup. And as for the man City win , that was a dream result. 

Those players got a record-breaking championship title. They weren't that rubbish, but they were used incorrectly to have a prayer of survival in the Premier League. To reiterate what I said, it wasn't just a bad season, it was our worst points haul in well over 100 years .

There was some fun to be had in the swashbuckling approach, but it was a disastrous approach to trying to keep heads above water in the Premier league, as the points haul demonstrated.

Edited December 8, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Branston Pickle 3,696]

2 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

If you can get two others on here to agree Deano is a good manager in the next 24 hours I’ll concede. Good luck with that one. 

Most Brentford fans would agree he is a good manager, Walsall and Villa too. He didn’t work out here, it is what it is. 

[Sufyellow 223]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Then they’re supporting the wrong club. You can try and play football the right way but ultimately we’re a side that’s spent the last 50 years bouncing between the top two divisions, we haven’t got the funds to always play like Barcelona or Man City. Some sides are going to be more pragmatic than others, and I’m fine with that (as long as it doesn’t turn into a Pulis style long ball affair).

Lets be honest most fans have conveniently forgotten that Farkes first season was largely a dull affair, as we’d play a thousand passes and not get out of our own half and the opposition would all be back behind the ball to nullify any attack. It wasn’t until we had Buendia (and to a lesser extent Cantwell) to unlock those defenses that it turned into a successful system. Trying to recreate that now would be no more successful than how we’re currently doing 

Cantwell was made good by the system,  emi and pukki were made good by the system. All our players looked good because of the system.  Great coaching. All our success has been from attacking good football.  

[Sufyellow 223]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Here's rational: We were in no danger at all from demotion when Smith was sacked, but fans were still determined to make things so toxic he had to be sacked. We were told anybody could do better. We got Wagner and he has done worse.

Wagner has had three scrappy wins and people seem to be prepared to give him the break that Smith didn't get because he claps the fans, even though he'd taken us to a point where relegation was starting to be a possility you had to think about.

The players are behind Wagner, we've got a few wins, so I'm behind Wagner as well. I'm pleased that more people seem to be rational about it this time around than they were with Smith. I guess it's what happens when you clap the fans.

Like I said, it matters not one jot what jobs he gets, but you've already been wrong on this before, so there's every reason to think you might be wrong again.

Either way, my points about Farke's complete hopelessness in the Premier League are a separate subject.

Smith lost me Southampton away in the prem,  we lost 3 nil , it should of been 8 , we were lucky most of their shots kept hitting gun in goal.  Smith did nothing,  arms folded all game , we had a 2 mile walk back to our car with Southampton fans laughing at us , couldn't argue back we were rubbish.  Smith improved nothing after Farke,  I would of expected us to at least resemble a team by the end of the season,  we weren't remotely competitive.  Luckily losing 3 nil to Newcastle was my last game that season,  I believe followed by 4 and 5 nil.

[Sufyellow 223]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Those players got a record-breaking championship title. They weren't that rubbish, but they were used incorrectly to have a prayer of survival in the Premier League. To reiterate what I said, it wasn't just a bad season, it was our worst points haul in well over 100 years .

There was some fun to be had in the swashbuckling approach, but it was a disastrous approach to trying to keep heads above water in the Premier league, as the points haul demonstrated.

Then take the best 2 players out of the team and replace them with a couple of youngsters who ended up not good enough for the championship and not even bother to replace the CDM . Great coach despite a minus 20 million summer spend he got a record breaking championship title. What we would give for anything like that now. 

[The Real Buh 3,482]

Delia Smith Sucks

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

9 hours ago, Newtopia said:

I hear your point on stability, and this tactic of trying to force Delia out is just childish - unless people think Attansio is ready to pay for the club or they are personally hoping to buy the club.  
 

With Dean Smith, he was a really poor coach and manager, and I am certain he was appointed on the basis that we could not get someone better.  He did not seem to have a clear style, he didn’t foster the good will of the fans (which as you rightly point of Wagner has done more so), and he chopped and changed personnel / strategy without a clear purpose.  I didn’t dislike him, and cup of tea thing actually made him more relatable.

With Wagner the wheels have fallen off since Sargent got injured, up to that point the strategy and style looked good.  When things started going wrong he has tried to make us more solid, so I feel their is plan in there, but it feels like he doesn’t trust some of the expensive players, and his strategy does seem to like us very open in transition.

Smith had injuries to contend with as well. What's our clear style now? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether we think he knows what he's doing. It matters whether the players think they know what he's doing. Both then and now, the players were confident in the manager. Getting toxic about Wagner now would be ridiculous; getting toxic about Smith then was ridiculous, no matter how you dress it up with opinions stated like they were fact.

Edited December 9, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,041]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Smith had injuries to contend with as well. What's our clear style now? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether we think he knows what he's doing. It matters whether the players think they know what he's doing. Both then and now, the players were confident in the manager. Getting toxic about Wagner now would be ridiculous; getting toxic about Smith then was ridiculous, no matter how you dress it up with opinions stated like they were fact.

Dean Smith sucks.........

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

3 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Dean Smith sucks.........

Whatever you have to keep telling yourself. I strongly suspect the biggest reason people go on insisting Smith is a crap manager though is that sacking him looks really stupid given how Wagner has done, which makes all the people campaigning so hard to get him sacked look stupid.

Edited December 9, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[The Real Buh 3,482]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Whatever you have to keep telling yourself.

Turns out you need to keep telling yourself

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

7 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Turns out you need to keep telling yourself

No I don't. Who brought dream Smith up? Not me.

I've found it fascinating you've been pretty quiet about Wagner after you were so vehemently hostile to Smith come what may for actually not doing as badly as Wagner has.

Edited December 9, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[The Real Buh 3,482]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No I don't. Who brought dream Smith up? Not me.

I meant you posted twice 😂

[lake district canary 4,549]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Farke was our coach for our worst points haul in a season since 1903. He was on target for less points when he was sacked. Top 26 or not, that's abysmal. We may not have had the best players, but we needed to be setting up to grind out wins and win ugly, not try to do what we'd done in the Championship. Farke was simply incompetent on that score. I really don't think anyone in their right mind should wonder why he was sacked.

What total rubbish. The first PL season was ruined for us by covid and the lockdown. Up to then we were in the fight - winning against Leicester in the last game before the lockdown proved that. That we couldn't get back into the fight once games returned was purely down to loss of momentum and the lack of fans to make a difference. The lack fans aided those with superior quality players and we saw how that lack of fans helped us the following season in the championship - fans are a huge part of what makes football what it is.

Those who can't see that just look at those last ten games and say "Ooh, Farke is so rubbish, lowest points haul" etc etc, ignoring the effect of covid and the vagaries of being a club with such a poor squad (due largely to Webbers' self admitting poor recruitment). To pin the blame on Farke for all that was/is folly.

To cap it all, they ludicrously added those ten PL games to the following PL season, ignoring a fantastic record breaking season in between. So you got the effect of covid in pre-season, another poor recruitment debacle by Webber and a horrendous starting fixture list which was bound to make things difficult.  So a poor start became "oooh....he can't win premier league games" helped along by the media continually spouting brainless PL stats from two separate seasons that took no account of circumstances let alone the fantastic season in between.

Barmy.

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,085]

12 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

What total rubbish. The first PL season was ruined for us by covid and the lockdown. Up to then we were in the fight - winning against Leicester in the last game before the lockdown proved that. That we couldn't get back into the fight once games returned was purely down to loss of momentum and the lack of fans to make a difference. The lack fans aided those with superior quality players and we saw how that lack of fans helped us the following season in the championship - fans are a huge part of what makes football what it is.

Those who can't see that just look at those last ten games and say "Ooh, Farke is so rubbish, lowest points haul" etc etc, ignoring the effect of covid and the vagaries of being a club with such a poor squad (due largely to Webbers' self admitting poor recruitment). To pin the blame on Farke for all that was/is folly.

To cap it all, they ludicrously added those ten PL games to the following PL season, ignoring a fantastic record breaking season in between. So you got the effect of covid in pre-season, another poor recruitment debacle by Webber and a horrendous starting fixture list which was bound to make things difficult.  So a poor start became "oooh....he can't win premier league games" helped along by the media continually spouting brainless PL stats from two separate seasons that took no account of circumstances let alone the fantastic season in between.

Barmy.

 

We lost the last match before lockdown Lakey, Sheff Utd away. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

19 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

What total rubbish. The first PL season was ruined for us by covid and the lockdown. Up to then we were in the fight - winning against Leicester in the last game before the lockdown proved that. That we couldn't get back into the fight once games returned was purely down to loss of momentum and the lack of fans to make a difference. The lack fans aided those with superior quality players and we saw how that lack of fans helped us the following season in the championship - fans are a huge part of what makes football what it is.

Those who can't see that just look at those last ten games and say "Ooh, Farke is so rubbish, lowest points haul" etc etc, ignoring the effect of covid and the vagaries of being a club with such a poor squad (due largely to Webbers' self admitting poor recruitment). To pin the blame on Farke for all that was/is folly.

To cap it all, they ludicrously added those ten PL games to the following PL season, ignoring a fantastic record breaking season in between. So you got the effect of covid in pre-season, another poor recruitment debacle by Webber and a horrendous starting fixture list which was bound to make things difficult.  So a poor start became "oooh....he can't win premier league games" helped along by the media continually spouting brainless PL stats from two separate seasons that took no account of circumstances let alone the fantastic season in between.

Barmy.

 

Every team had Covid to contend with. Every team has injuries to contend with. Worst points haul since 1903. You talk of a record breakingly brilliant Championship season, and that's fair enough, but you can't ignore the record-breakingly awful Premier League season that Farke was on course to repeat when he was sacked. Note that Dean Smith didn't surpass Farke's record-breakingly awful Premier League record, even without Buendia and with exactly the same squad Farke started the season with.

If you entertain a reality where Dean Smith isn't as bad as you think and Farke wasn't as great as you think then you're approaching something like the real world.

Edited December 9, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[lake district canary 4,549]

1 minute ago, Midlands Yellow said:

We lost the last match before lockdown Lakey, Sheff Utd away. 

Thanks for correcting me, but it doesn't change the essence of the point - we were still at a point at which we were competing. after lockdown, there was simply nothing there that could answer the superior quality of the opposition. Farke said from day one - and it is something we can all understand - that to be successful, a club like ours would need everything working together to make it work - and the fans were a huge part of our success in getting to the PL and trying to stay there. Without fans, we were nothing - and it worked in or favour the following season as our superior way of playing and top level key players were too much for empty stadiums in the championship.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Thanks for correcting me, but it doesn't change the essence of the point - we were still at a point at which we were competing. after lockdown, there was simply nothing there that could answer the superior quality of the opposition. Farke said from day one - and it is something we can all understand - that to be successful, a club like ours would need everything working together to make it work - and the fans were a huge part of our success in getting to the PL and trying to stay there. Without fans, we were nothing - and it worked in or favour the following season as our superior way of playing and top level key players were too much for empty stadiums in the championship.

You haven't got a point. It's just excuses deflecting; everyone had those problems to contend with. Dealing with them is part of a manager's job.

He was on course to deliver even less points for the season when he was sacked, and that's including the win after the decision had been made.

Edited December 9, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[lake district canary 4,549]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Every team had Covid to contend with. Every team has injuries to contend with. Worst points haul since 1903. You talk of a record breakingly brilliant Championship season, and that's fair enough, but you can't ignore the record-breakingly awful Premier League season that Farke was on course to repeat when he was sacked. Note that Dean Smith didn't surpass Farke's record-breakingly awful Premier League record, even without Buendia and with exactly the same squad Farke started the season with.

If you entertain a reality where Dean Smith isn't as bad as you think and Farke wasn't as great as you think then you're approaching something like the real world.

There you go again with the common thing people say that totally disregards other factors....."every team had covid to contend with". Can people not see past the end of their noses? Can they not understand the way lockdown affected the way football matches were different in empty stadiums?  That we had the weakest squad by far and on top of that we had lost any momentum we had because of the long break?  Is that so hard to understand????

Oh and farke was a great fit for us, Smith wasn't. It's simple really.........

Edited December 9, 2023 by lake district canary

[littleyellowbirdie 2,601]

5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

There you go again with the common thing people say that totally disregards other factors....."every team had covid to contend with". Can people not see past the end of their noses? Can they not understand the way lockdown affected the way football matches were different in empty stadiums?  That we had the weakest squad by far and on top of that we had lost any momentum we had because of the long break?  Is that so hard to understand????

If we were talking about missing survival by a point or two you might have a point, but we're not. We're talking about a record-breaking worst points haul in over 100 years. That's why those mitigating factors don't excuse the scope of the failure. It was systemic failure brought about by trying to play a top end Premier-League style against experienced Premier League players with players who weren't experienced Premier League players. That was bad management on Farke's part and suggests he just wasn't capable of doing anything else.

And I'll say again, he was on course to do worse when he was sacked the second time around.

Edited December 9, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie