Goals

[hogesar 9,825]

Have to say, whilst I'm in the Wagner needs to go camp, having watched extended highlights for the first time from yesterday, for once our goals weren't really down to poor tactical situations but more so down to terrible individual errors.

Possibly the way Wagner set us up could have worked had he done it a few weeks ago, before confidence was on the floor. Difficult job for whoever comes in.

[Sufyellow 246]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Have to say, whilst I'm in the Wagner needs to go camp, having watched extended highlights for the first time from yesterday, for once our goals weren't really down to poor tactical situations but more so down to terrible individual errors.

Possibly the way Wagner set us up could have worked had he done it a few weeks ago, before confidence was on the floor. Difficult job for whoever comes in.

2 of those goals cried out for a cdm , something Wagner said we don't need,  it's the same every game,  defenders and midfielders ball watching and not tracking or watching attacking players. Kenny McLean has never been the answer. 

[hogesar 9,825]

1 minute ago, Sufyellow said:

2 of those goals cried out for a cdm , something Wagner said we don't need,  it's the same every game,  defenders and midfielders ball watching and not tracking or watching attacking players. Kenny McLean has never been the answer. 

What do you think a CDM does differently for either two goals? We arent caught up field and overloaded. Their player skips 3 or 4 challenges all from players capable of intercepting and our LB doesn't track a simple inside run from one of their players. I think that's for the first.

There is nothing a CDM does to significantly impact those goals yesterday.

[S_81 926]

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Have to say, whilst I'm in the Wagner needs to go camp, having watched extended highlights for the first time from yesterday, for once our goals weren't really down to poor tactical situations but more so down to terrible individual errors.

Possibly the way Wagner set us up could have worked had he done it a few weeks ago, before confidence was on the floor. Difficult job for whoever comes in.

He was atrocious at the end of last season and the only surprise was the relatively decent start to the season before he’s been consistently atrocious again. 
 

He’s a really poor tactician 

[Sufyellow 246]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

What do you think a CDM does differently for either two goals? We arent caught up field and overloaded. Their player skips 3 or 4 challenges all from players capable of intercepting and our LB doesn't track a simple inside run from one of their players. I think that's for the first.

There is nothing a CDM does to significantly impact those goals yesterday.

Sits in front of the defence for the 2nd goal and is aware of the runners coming through,  our midfield totally ball watch and are clueless  how to defend. Players totally unmarked on the edge of our area time and time again.  Watching our defence one against one backing off all the time . 2nd goal great run , it looked like Kenny and Sara wanted to clap than go with the runner right through the middle.  

[hogesar 9,825]

2 minutes ago, S_81 said:

He was atrocious at the end of last season and the only surprise was the relatively decent start to the season before he’s been consistently atrocious again. 
 

He’s a really poor tactician 

I think pre-season he'd built a system that suited the starting eleven and ultimately teams found it very hard to counter..but it was fully reliant on an experienced old head like Barnes to know when to drop deep and when to win tactics fouls. It also required someone with the energy and physicality of Sargent.

Unfortunately where he's poor for me is changing to suit. Far too slow. Which probably explains why he struggled when injuries happened last season to change things, and again this season.

[hogesar 9,825]

1 minute ago, Sufyellow said:

Sits in front of the defence for the 2nd goal and is aware of the runners coming through,  our midfield totally ball watch and are clueless  how to defend. Players totally unmarked on the edge of our area time and time again.  Watching our defence one against one backing off all the time . 2nd goal great run , it looked like Kenny and Sara wanted to clap than go with the runner right through the middle.  

I think you're going to be hideously disappointed if we do sign a CDM as he wouldn't have made a jot of difference if our LB let's a free inside run into the penalty area and our CB loses the ball on the edge of his area. We still lose the game.

[Monty13 2,299]

In isolation you’re right. Feel a tiny bit sorry for Wagner. He finally tried something different and it was working until our own inability to do basics exposed us again.

It’s not in isolation though and it’s too late for him to get credit for making changes he should have made weeks ago.

[S_81 926]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think pre-season he'd built a system that suited the starting eleven and ultimately teams found it very hard to counter..but it was fully reliant on an experienced old head like Barnes to know when to drop deep and when to win tactics fouls. It also required someone with the energy and physicality of Sargent.

Unfortunately where he's poor for me is changing to suit. Far too slow. Which probably explains why he struggled when injuries happened last season to change things, and again this season.

He hardly has a plan A, yet alone a plan B. Never known a manager who consistently makes such poor substitutions. Regularly makes things even worse. Albeit in mitigation he hasn’t got a huge amount to work with 

[NFN FC 1,123]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think you're going to be hideously disappointed if we do sign a CDM as he wouldn't have made a jot of difference if our LB let's a free inside run into the penalty area and our CB loses the ball on the edge of his area. We still lose the game.

Need someone in the middle to control the midfield. Atm the opposition go through it like a hot knife through butter.

[repman 644]

While you could characterise both goals as individual errors I think there's still a tactical element to it too. When you sit so deep and invite pressure you're more likely to make costly mistakes. When you play like that you have to ride your luck for 90 minutes to get a result, it's a totally unsustainable way of getting results long term.

[NFN FC 1,123]

Duffy and Gibson make mistake after mistake but start every game. I just don't understand this. What do Warner and Batth think watching this every week? How are they ever going to get a start?

Poor man management imo

Edited October 29, 2023 by NFN FC

[Dr Greenthumb 753]

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Have to say, whilst I'm in the Wagner needs to go camp, having watched extended highlights for the first time from yesterday, for once our goals weren't really down to poor tactical situations but more so down to terrible individual errors.

Possibly the way Wagner set us up could have worked had he done it a few weeks ago, before confidence was on the floor. Difficult job for whoever comes in.

Sitting back inviting the attacks knowing how poor we are defensively wasnt a great idea. Sunderland were getting through far too easily.  The performance was rubbish  and that was down to how we were setup.

[Mason 47 1,426]

It's the lack of control which is the biggest issue for me. We were hardly able to get out- Mowbray completely correct about this in his post-match- and this means we spend a lot of time having to be very good defensively. Without many natural defenders in the squad, this makes life very hard for ourselves.

I'd even almost say yesterday that two of the goals were down to have too many players back, which will probably sound a bit nuts to some. Too much congestion, hoping raw numbers in our defensive third would do the job.

[hogesar 9,825]

3 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

Duffy and Gibson make mistake after mistake but start every game. I just don't understand this. What do Warner and Batth think watching this every week? How are they ever going to get a start?

Poor man management imo

I don't think it's fair to throw Gibson in every time with Duffy. He's been 10x better than Duffy this season and rarely made individual mistakes resulting in goals. And that's with Duffy one side and Gini the other, who was diabolical yesterday.

[hogesar 9,825]

5 minutes ago, repman said:

While you could characterise both goals as individual errors I think there's still a tactical element to it too. When you sit so deep and invite pressure you're more likely to make costly mistakes. When you play like that you have to ride your luck for 90 minutes to get a result, it's a totally unsustainable way of getting results long term.

 

Just now, Mason 47 said:

It's the lack of control which is the biggest issue for me. We were hardly able to get out- Mowbray completely correct about this in his post-match- and this means we spend a lot of time having to be very good defensively. Without many natural defenders in the squad, this makes life very hard for ourselves.

I'd even almost say yesterday that two of the goals were down to have too many players back, which will probably sound a bit nuts to some. Too much congestion, hoping raw numbers in our defensive third would do the job.

I didn't see the whole game so it's harder for me to judge the overall pressure etc you're both referring too, but the stats back up exactly what you've both said.

[Dr Greenthumb 753]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't think it's fair to throw Gibson in every time with Duffy. He's been 10x better than Duffy this season and rarely made individual mistakes resulting in goals. And that's with Duffy one side and Gini the other, who was diabolical yesterday.

Gibson didn’t do anything wrong yesterday, cannot understand why he got subbed and McLean (who was pedestrian) went to centre back 

[Naturalcynic 685]

While waiting for the Metro after the game several Sunderland supporters commiserated with me but said we were easily the worst team they’d played this season.  Having witnessed all of yesterday’s debacle, I wasn’t in the least surprised by their opinions.

[Mason 47 1,426]

14 minutes ago, hogesar said:

 

I didn't see the whole game so it's harder for me to judge the overall pressure etc you're both referring too, but the stats back up exactly what you've both said.

Looking at the stats posted recently by Connor Southwell, we've given up about 99 shots on goal in the past 5 games, worst xGa in the league now and failed to get over 1 xG in the past 4. All reflect a team trapped in their own half.

A manager can't account for the most experienced player in the side trying to dribble past attackers with no cover (where's that chap gone who thought Gibson should be taking on + beating players) however if we ask shaky defenders to defend 90% of the time, we're not getting very far.

If we're going to get out of this, we need to find a way to keep the ball in their half much more effectively. That, unfortunately, is a manager issue.

[Robert N. LiM 4,667]

1 minute ago, Mason 47 said:

we've given up about 99 shots on goal in the past 5 games,

This is the killer stat for me. We're conceding two goals a game and, even more worryingly, we just look like a team who's going to concede two goals a game.

Was there anyone in the ground at HT who thought we'd beat Leeds?

[Sufyellow 246]

46 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think you're going to be hideously disappointed if we do sign a CDM as he wouldn't have made a jot of difference if our LB let's a free inside run into the penalty area and our CB loses the ball on the edge of his area. We still lose the game.

So , having a free hit from the edge of our area is fine for the first . And the 2nd you really need to watch the highlights to see where the goal scorer comes from , Sara let's him go and McLean has drifted ball watching. Also Tettey used to cover the fullbacks . 

[Barham Blitz 668]

The fundamental issue as I keep saying is that of the forward press not working in combination with two very slow central defenders.  Wagner's tactical approach is based on winning the ball back high and early through a boxed four comprising the two strikers and the two wingers.  If we don't - as I pointed out pre-season - there is a gaping hole in central midfield. 

That might be mitigated somewhat (in Wagner's set up) by playing a very high defensive line of the two centre backs and one of the central midfielders until the fullbacks can get back into position, but the fact that both Duffy and Gibson lack any semblance of pace and Kenny is far from a natural defensive midfielder (particularly when he drops in centrally and the CBs are covering the channels) means that we can't play a high line, so unless they can win any initial forward ball they have to resort to backing off.

I was critical of this approach before a ball was kicked this season - although I did admit to being impressed as to how effectively Sargent and Barnes had it working early season.  The fact that Wagner can't see this and adjust accordingly in their absence - either through personnel or tactical adjustments - is the biggest indictment of his management and the reason why a change has to be made for me.  If he is wedded to this system, Warner has to start alongside Duffy, Gibson or Batth  (my preference despite the general consensus would be Gibson) and Sara has to play second striker.

Personally, with the players available I would go to a conventional 4-2-3-1 with Kenny and Gibbs as a slightly deeper double pivot with Sara at #10.  By all means keep the forward press but don't overcommit both fullbacks at the same time.

[Mark .Y. 352]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I think you're going to be hideously disappointed if we do sign a CDM as he wouldn't have made a jot of difference if our LB let's a free inside run into the penalty area and our CB loses the ball on the edge of his area. We still lose the game.

I guess the question for me there is should that CB be in the team. We have an experienced CB on the bench who was POTS for a pretty good Championship side last year but never seems to get on the pitch for us and we also have a youngster who looked good in the, admittedly, very little time we saw him in the first team. 

[MORDENCANARY 71]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Have to say, whilst I'm in the Wagner needs to go camp, having watched extended highlights for the first time from yesterday, for once our goals weren't really down to poor tactical situations but more so down to terrible individual errors.

Possibly the way Wagner set us up could have worked had he done it a few weeks ago, before confidence was on the floor. Difficult job for whoever comes in.

It,s easy to blame individual errors but if it's a constant trait there's clearly an underlying problem. The easiest thing to do is blame the players in question. Could it be a symptom of players being expected to play in a style or system that's not suitable for their abilities ? 

That was the problem with Farke, the style of play worked for the players in the Championship but in the Prem the players weren't good enough to execute the system effectively. 

 

[Jim Smith 2,365]

1 hour ago, Mason 47 said:

It's the lack of control which is the biggest issue for me. We were hardly able to get out- Mowbray completely correct about this in his post-match- and this means we spend a lot of time having to be very good defensively. Without many natural defenders in the squad, this makes life very hard for ourselves.

I'd even almost say yesterday that two of the goals were down to have too many players back, which will probably sound a bit nuts to some. Too much congestion, hoping raw numbers in our defensive third would do the job.

I agree with you entirely. Forshaw did not have a good game but then he was asked to play box to box with Kenny sitting, this is the wrong way round. But also and most importantly we didn’t press like normal. If you press up the pitch and then have a sitting midfielder deeper to pick up the scraps that’s when you have a well structured team. We just decided to put loads of players in front of the defence but with none of them actually tackling. In fact often we had all of them in our box with Sunderland players completely free 30 yards out to pick up the ball and have a shot. Amateurish stuff.

Their second goal is as good an example of p**s poor defending as you will ever see.4 players around the ball carrier, none of whom manage to get an effective block in or channel him away from goal and then for good measure Gibson decides to charge to the ball, vacating his area in the middle which their player swans into unmarked and then scores. He’s an experienced defender. That sort of error is almost inexplicable but I don’t think there is any trust in others to do their job. They just all run to the ball like a bunch of under 9s. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Jim Smith

[Jim Smith 2,365]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I don't think it's fair to throw Gibson in every time with Duffy. He's been 10x better than Duffy this season and rarely made individual mistakes resulting in goals. And that's with Duffy one side and Gini the other, who was diabolical yesterday.

Second goal yesterday was to a large degree Gibsons fault. He often doesn’t make the last mistake leading to a goal concession but he’s often involved somewhere in the chain of incompetence leading up to a goal. 

[hogesar 9,825]

9 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Second goal yesterday was to a large degree Gibsons fault. He often doesn’t make the last mistake leading to a goal concession but he’s often involved somewhere in the chain of incompetence leading up to a goal. 

If we're going to chain it, then Sara is probably one of our most culpable. Regularly loses the ball for us in bad areas, however that get's ignored for obvious reasons. 

Anyway, you're really going to have to explain Gibson's fault to me, I've taken stills from the goal:

Here, Duffy is marking empty space. Seemingly with no knowledge of who's around him (no-one, in this instance). Gibson points out Sunderlands number 15, presuming this is to Duffy as the player is direct in Gini's eyeline so shouldn't be a problem. Mclean is about to occupy the big space between Duffy and Gibson (albeit poorly).

Duffy is still ball-watching, he hasn't moved, he seemingly completely unaware their Number 15 could make a run in behind where there's a big gap between him and Fisher. Gibson therefore has to go cover, he can't let him go. But Gini can at least see this so should tuck in naturally. Note Sara has finally jogged back into some sort of defensive position.

This is one-second after, Duffy and Gibson now essentially marking the same person, which is where I assume your blame comes from. But you can see why he's had to do that from above, Duffy has done nothing to signify he was aware of player 15. 

Concerningly, Gini has done absolutely nothing and Sara has been sucked towards the ball despite 3 players already around it. Sara was running back so could see the free Sunderland player running into the box but presumably expected Gini to tuck in (just what is Gini marking?).

The pass makes it through (albeit too easily) Gini is caught on his heels even though he's had a perfect line of sight this entire time. 

I don't actually know a defender in the world who could perform with Gini one side and Duffy the other at the moment.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

I suspect Barnes/Sargent partnership wouldnt have been sustainable long term anyway before we were found out

We would have still had McLean/Sara screening the back 4 which has been shown to not be good enough defensively.

Its reprehensible that in all the time one/both of them have bern out injured that Sara has only been started as a no.10 once or twice?

When Barnes and Sargent do return ,if they are to start together again, we still need a proper CDM , in January,  given that Sara is an obvious starter , the odd man out who must make way therefore is 'Captain Marvel McLean'

[hogesar 9,825]

5 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I suspect Barnes/Sargent partnership wouldnt have been sustainable long term anyway before we were found out

We would have still had McLean/Sara screening the back 4 which has been shown to not be good enough defensively.

Its reprehensible that in all the time one/both of them have bern out injured that Sara has only been started as a no.10 once or twice?

When Barnes and Sargent do return ,if they are to start together again, we still need a proper CDM , in January,  given that Sara is an obvious starter , the odd man out who must make way therefore is 'Captain Marvel McLean'

Sara's average position in most games actually ends up being that Number 10 position, which sort of expains why we're often so overloaded in midfield. Especially when he's guilty of losing the ball in dangerous areas whilst not being anywhere near alongside Mclean. 

Sara was our most forward central midfielder yesterday, occupying the 10 position most often.

Against Boro was slightly different because of Nunez, but was still relatively high.

Again against Leeds, the most forward midfielder.

So he generally plays as a 10 for us, don't get confused by just looking at lineups.

Edited October 29, 2023 by hogesar

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

14 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Sara's average position in most games actually ends up being that Number 10 position, which sort of expains why we're often so overloaded in midfield. Especially when he's guilty of losing the ball in dangerous areas whilst not being anywhere near alongside Mclean. 

Sara was our most forward central midfielder yesterday, occupying the 10 position most often.

Against Boro was slightly different because of Nunez, but was still relatively high.

Again against Leeds, the most forward midfielder.

So he generally plays as a 10 for us, don't get confused by just looking at lineups.

The point being that he should be in a no.10...but with someone else behind him alongside McLean to cover those gaps