HS2

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

You'd think that should turn a few previously Red Wall seats back towards the Labour Party now. This is going to be a combination of a few tax cuts (maybe an increase in the personal allowance, combined with the slight increase in the minimum wage) and mostly empty-headed culture war nonsense based on soundbites over facts.

Easiest decision ever to vote tactically against the Tories from my perspective, especially as Bolton West is a two-horse race anyway. Tick for Labour it is.

[ricardo 7,414]

8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

None at all. I ought to try and identify them at some point - at least two kinds (one small and one larger) I think but far too fast to actually see properly in the gloom. Biggest has 6" bat-span. 

There's a bloke in Gotham City who might know.

[Yellow Fever 3,842]

9 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Other countries (France, Spain) have a much larger land area than the UK, with large cities hundreds of miles apart and with lots of empty space in between. This is completely different to the UK which thanks to being first in industrialisation, has huge legacy built up conurbations with almost no free space between. It was always going to be prohibitively expensive to attempt to replicate a high speed rail network here. I don't think we will find Starmer reintroducing this if Labour win the next election. For me this was always akin to the Boris Island London Airport in the Thames estuary idea. Money down the drain with little benefit to the average person. Birminham to London, ten minutes quicker, so what?

Yes and no. Big cities closely spaced you can't really get up to speed (360 - 400 km/h) before you have to slow down again.

But - fast routes to Brum, Manchester / Leeds / and yes Scotland do link the country up. It was as much political as economic.

And no SKS  won't rush to undo this if all the other infrastructure plans have made tangible progress. Might still do Manchester that said.

Sorry Ricardo - couldn't resist adding to your last comment - "For me this was always akin to the Boris Island London Airport in the Thames estuary idea. Money down the drain with little benefit to the average person. Birmingham to London, ten minutes quicker, so what?" Just like Brexit then 😉

 

[Yellow Fever 3,842]

15 minutes ago, ricardo said:

There's a bloke in Gotham City who might know.

Need to borrow a bat detector incognito. They seem a tad expensive to buy for one off use!

[duke63 545]

Britain will become a European poverty backwater soon. 
We do not invest in the future. 
And even when a decision to do so is made there are so many vested interests, cronyism and fingers in pies that costs run out of control and it gets cancelled. We are a joke. 
 

I see Shapps wants all us plebs to work until we are 75 too. 
 

You would have to be mental to vote Tory. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by duke63

[benchwarmer 625]

1 hour ago, duke63 said:

I see Shapps wants all us plebs to work until we are 75 too. 

 

And why?  Because the UK has an ageing demographic, and the government has chosen to keep raising the pension age instead of restoring the demographic balance through (controlled) immigration of working age people.

Post-Brexit the gap is bound to widen, and by the time the penny drops no one will want to come here anyway.

Edited October 4, 2023 by benchwarmer

[Herman 9,839]

WTF is this?

 

[NFN FC 1,123]

[ricardo 7,414]

1 hour ago, duke63 said:

 

I see Shapps wants all us plebs to work until we are 75 too. 
 

 

Fortunately I'm still several steps ahead.

[NFN FC 1,123]

53 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

And why?  Because the UK has an ageing demographic, and the government has chosen to keep raising the pension age instead of restoring the demographic balance through (controlled) immigration of working age people.

Post-Brexit the gap is bound to widen, and by the time the penny drops no one will want to come here anyway.

Make sense that as our life expectancy increases, the retirement age does too. 

A child born today is extremely likely to live past 100. Should they retire for 35+ years?

Most 65 year olds are physically and mentally able to work, so why shouldnt they? 

Edited October 4, 2023 by NFN FC

[Naturalcynic 678]

I’m confused.  I thought the progressive view was that HS2 was a dreadful idea because of the environmental impact, the negligible benefit, and the huge cost which could be far better used on more deserving causes.  However, there seems much frothing at the mouth from the usual suspects now that its (partial) cancellation has been officially announced.  Or is it that progressive policy is simply to oppose anything and everything the Government says and does?

[A Load of Squit 5,224]

3 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I’m confused.  I thought the progressive view was that HS2 was a dreadful idea because of the environmental impact, the negligible benefit, and the huge cost which could be far better used on more deserving causes.  However, there seems much frothing at the mouth from the usual suspects now that its (partial) cancellation has been officially announced.  Or is it that progressive policy is simply to oppose anything and everything the Government says and does?

You should've stopped at 'I'm confused'.

[Herman 9,839]

Personally I thought it sounded a good idea but sold to the country badly and then made even worse by very poor leadership and highly questionable accounting. Apart from the first bit,it sums up this government perfectly.

[NFN FC 1,123]

4 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I’m confused.  I thought the progressive view was that HS2 was a dreadful idea because of the environmental impact, the negligible benefit, and the huge cost which could be far better used on more deserving causes.  However, there seems much frothing at the mouth from the usual suspects now that its (partial) cancellation has been officially announced.  Or is it that progressive policy is simply to oppose anything and everything the Government says and does?

It's the flipfloppery that annoys people.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

21 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

Make sense that as our life expectancy increases, the retirement age does too. 

A child born today is extremely likely to live past 100. Should they retire for 35+ years?

Most 65 year olds are physically and mentally able to work, so why shouldnt they? 

Do you really think at 65 people will beable to carry out physical and tiring work? Just because we are living longer doesn't mean we are better equipped to work until 75. Hence the need for workplace pensions which are going to get more expensive to contribute to.

[NFN FC 1,123]

35 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Do you really think at 65 people will beable to carry out physical and tiring work? Just because we are living longer doesn't mean we are better equipped to work until 75. Hence the need for workplace pensions which are going to get more expensive to contribute to.

Yes, or do something that's not as physical 

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

42 minutes ago, Herman said:

Personally I thought it sounded a good idea but sold to the country badly and then made even worse by very poor leadership and highly questionable accounting. Apart from the first bit,it sums up this government perfectly.

That's because the first bit, the good idea, was the idea of the last Labour government but as you say it has been downhill all the way (metaphorically of course I dont think they've got far enough to build any uphill bits yet 😀) since the utterly incompetent idiots who have run the country (literally into the ground) for the last 13 years got their grubby hands on the project.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Creative Midfielder

[Naturalcynic 678]

2 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That's because the first bit, the good idea, was the idea of the last Labour government but as you say it has been steadily downhill (metaphorically of course I dont think they've got far enough to build any uphill bits yet 😀) since the utterly incompetent idiots who have run the country (literally into the ground) for the last 13 years got their grubby hands on the project.

So it was a good idea when Labour suggested it, a bad idea when the Conservatives were doing it, and suddenly a good idea again now that they’ve cancelled it.  

[Herman 9,839]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That's because the first bit, the good idea, was the idea of the last Labour government but as you say it has been downhill all the way (metaphorically of course I dont think they've got far enough to build any uphill bits yet 😀) since the utterly incompetent idiots who have run the country (literally into the ground) for the last 13 years got their grubby hands on the project.

I think we can safely guess that many a parasite has filled their pockets, yet again, with a lot of taxpayers money for doing absolutely fa. But let's blame the country's financial worries on the sick and the disabled that need a few quid a week extra.

[A Load of Squit 5,224]

3 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

So it was a good idea when Labour suggested it, a bad idea when the Conservatives were doing it, and suddenly a good idea again now that they’ve cancelled it.  

You really are confused.

[Herman 9,839]

4 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

So it was a good idea when Labour suggested it, a bad idea when the Conservatives were doing it, and suddenly a good idea again now that they’ve cancelled it.  

No. It was a good idea then it was a good idea badly handled and now it's a good idea that they can't be arsed to finish.

[Yellow Fever 3,842]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

I’m confused.  I thought the progressive view was that HS2 was a dreadful idea because of the environmental impact, the negligible benefit, and the huge cost which could be far better used on more deserving causes.  However, there seems much frothing at the mouth from the usual suspects now that its (partial) cancellation has been officially announced.  Or is it that progressive policy is simply to oppose anything and everything the Government says and does?

I think Cameron actually explained quite well why there was cross party support when it started off.

Today’s decision on HS2 is the wrong one. It will help to fuel the views of those who argue that we can no longer think or act for the long David term as a country; that we are heading in the wrong direction.

HS2 was about investing for the long-term, bringing the country together, ensuring a more balanced economy and delivering the Northern Powerhouse. We achieved historic, cross-party support, with extensive buy-in from city and local authority leaders across the Midlands and North of England. Today’s announcement throws away fifteen years of cross-party consensus, sustained over six administrations, and will make it much harder to build consensus for any future long-term projects.

All across the world, we see transformative, long-term infrastructure projects completed or underway. They show countries on the rise, building for future generations, thinking big and getting things done.

I regret this decision and in years to come I suspect many will look back at today’s announcement and wonder how this once-in-a-generation opportunity was lost.

.

[Naturalcynic 678]

8 minutes ago, Herman said:

No. It was a good idea then it was a good idea badly handled and now it's a good idea that they can't be arsed to finish.

Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but…

[ricardo 7,414]

One thing we can state with absolute certainly is that no future Government will attempt to reinstate HS2. It never made sense economically and Starmer will no doubt be relieved that he didn't have to make the decision.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, NFN FC said:

Yes, or do something that's not as physical 

If it were that easy.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

20 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

Just heard confirmation on Radio 4 that the Birmingham to Crewe section will require a parliamentary vote to scrap it.

The UK has finally thrown in the towel.  It's been coming ever since 2016.

I wonder how Starmer will tell Labour MPs to vote.

[NFN FC 1,123]

12 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

If it were that easy.

It is

[ricardo 7,414]

22 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

Western link money tomorrow. A47 dualling starts later this year. A17 (or A17M) / Wash anybody!

See today's EDP.

[Yellow Fever 3,842]

13 minutes ago, ricardo said:

See today's EDP.

Yes. Shovels in ground before next election!

Truth is of course there is no new money or indeed 'new' schemes - all that has happened is a changing of priorities / timescales with HS2 dropping of the table.  Anything 'shovel ready' will likely get the immediate go ahead.

A17 Pullover roundabout too! About time!

Edited October 5, 2023 by Yellow Fever
Drive the A17 all too regularly. Dreadful road.

[TheGunnShow 6,027]

Close enough, right?