HS2

[duke63 548]

1 hour ago, NFN FC said:

I would argue that they are on average healthier.

No but he could work in the construction industry off the tools.

So people should not spend on luxuries to pay for everyone to retire at 65?

You are very imaginative. 
 

If people are going to have to work longer we are going to have to provide a lot more jobs that elderly people can do. 
 

Or we could just have a government backed state pension whereby the government does not use that tax and national insurance paid today to Pay the pension of retirees now. But instead invests it for those paying into the scheme.
That there is the problem. 

[Well b back 3,324]

1 hour ago, NFN FC said:

Yes, today, but the retirement age is 65 today. I'm talking about in the future. 

No it isn’t 

[Well b back 3,324]

1 hour ago, NFN FC said:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/ageing/bulletins/estimatesoftheveryoldincludingcentenarians/2002to2020

Average lifespan is 79 and currently dropping.

After saying that I am of the opinion that the likes of Pfizer will soon have cures and preventions for cancer, however that doesn’t mean although you can live longer you will be physically able to work.

[NFN FC 1,123]

5 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Average lifespan is 79 and currently dropping.

After saying that I am of the opinion that the likes of Pfizer will soon have cures and preventions for cancer, however that doesn’t mean although you can live longer you will be physically able to work.

From the link

"Life expectancy has increased in the UK over the last 40 years, albeit at a slower pace in the last decade.

 

“However, the coronavirus pandemic led to a greater number of deaths than normal in 2020. Consequently, in the latest estimates, we see virtually no improvement in life expectancy for females compared to 2015 to 2017 at 82.9 years, while for males life expectancy has fallen back to levels reported for 2012 to 2014, at 79 years. This is the first time we have seen a decline when comparing non-overlapping time periods since the series began in the early 1980s.

 

“These estimates rely on the assumption that current levels of mortality, which are unusually high, will continue for the rest of someone’s life. Once the coronavirus pandemic has ended and its consequences for future mortality are known, it is possible that life expectancy will return to an improving trend in the future.”

 

Pamela Cobb, Centre for Ageing and Demography, Office for National Statistics

[Well b back 3,324]

10 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

From the link

"Life expectancy has increased in the UK over the last 40 years, albeit at a slower pace in the last decade.

 

“However, the coronavirus pandemic led to a greater number of deaths than normal in 2020. Consequently, in the latest estimates, we see virtually no improvement in life expectancy for females compared to 2015 to 2017 at 82.9 years, while for males life expectancy has fallen back to levels reported for 2012 to 2014, at 79 years. This is the first time we have seen a decline when comparing non-overlapping time periods since the series began in the early 1980s.

 

“These estimates rely on the assumption that current levels of mortality, which are unusually high, will continue for the rest of someone’s life. Once the coronavirus pandemic has ended and its consequences for future mortality are known, it is possible that life expectancy will return to an improving trend in the future.”

 

Pamela Cobb, Centre for Ageing and Demography, Office for National Statistics

It also says that a big proportion was due to the number of births increasing dramatically around the 1st world war. The number increased not the overall %.
Why are you using the 2020 figures ? An annuity is currently calculated ( for a male ) that you will live until you are 79, one of the reasons you can get good rates currently. 
You still haven’t shown evidence for these tens of thousands that you claim live to 105 and beyond.

And of course Covid has changed the figures, I work in health.

[duke63 548]

Nor has he said what jobs all these elderly people will be doing. 
 

The best thing this country could do is make offshore tax havens illegal, taxing all the assets in the Crown dependency ones at 40% and using the cash raised to make Britain a better place for the majority who live here and not for the richest minority. 
 

Im not holding my breath though when the idiots in charge are sill advocating tax cuts when the Country is declining and decaying at a rapid rate and badly in need on infrastructure investment. 

[Yellow Fever 3,858]

Be wary of life expectancy figures. They of course relate to those born today - not those already retiring (they will on average live longer - infant mortality and so on will have already dropped out - they've missed that bullet so to speak). There are some 'expected' years figures somewhere for any given current age. 

 

ONS

What is the life expectancy of a 67 year old male?

 

 

Life Expectancy Tables

Age	Life Expectancy-Male	Life Expectancy-Female
66	17.20	19.69
67	16.49	18.89
68	15.78	18.11
69	15.09	17.33

Edited October 6, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

19 hours ago, NFN FC said:

No idea who that is but I'll be whoever you want me to be baby 😘

You don't know who Norman Tebbit was? Research pal.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 hours ago, NFN FC said:

Dominos is a luxury. (Though plenty of unemployed would see it at a god given right).

The world is changing. I am preparing to work to 80. There will be no retire at 65 when my time comes around and I am fully prepared for that. 

Well they'll have to sort something out. There's plenty of warning signs around. If they don't plan for it, that's on them. People should stop expecting the government to wipe their **** for them. 

But the Government is the one raising the retiremnt age. The same Governments who hand out pensions after one term as an MP.

You carry on working if you want. Many will be incapable.

[Well b back 3,324]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But the Government is the one raising the retiremnt age. The same Governments who hand out pensions after one term as an MP.

You carry on working if you want. Many will be incapable.

And in the case of Farage, working for something that you are trying to destroy and then take a pension from that organisation that the U.K. taxpayer has to fund.

[Well b back 3,324]

17 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Be wary of life expectancy figures. They of course relate to those born today - not those already retiring (they will on average live longer - infant mortality and so on will have already dropped out - they've missed that bullet so to speak). There are some 'expected' years figures somewhere for any given current age. 

 

ONS

What is the life expectancy of a 67 year old male?

 

 

Life Expectancy Tables

Age	Life Expectancy-Male	Life Expectancy-Female
66	17.20	19.69
67	16.49	18.89
68	15.78	18.11
69	15.09	17.33

Agreed YF, what he was saying was that hundreds of thousands live to be 105 + I don’t dispute for 1 second my grandkids have a fare chance of living much older, but who knows what that will bring with a deteriorating planet and a rising world population. Starvation or a war could change that overnight.

[Yellow Fever 3,858]

8 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Agreed YF, what he was saying was that hundreds of thousands live to be 105 + I don’t dispute for 1 second my grandkids have a fare chance of living much older, but who knows what that will bring with a deteriorating planet and a rising world population. Starvation or a war could change that overnight.

Yes - hardly anybody.

There is a huge problem with us boomers though - when  we grew up it was retire at 65 and frankly dead at 70. That kind of how the pension system worked and put money 'aside'. Today we live much longer, we have a huge number of OAPs and a dwindling tax base to support them. The 'triple' lock is unsustainable (fix that for long term brave thinking Sunak!) .

22% of pensioners I saw are millionaires (that's me to be fair). Hence we to be thinking about taxing those that can afford it more to pay for all their 'unexpected' benefits including care and NHS. I'd start be making all pensioners pay full NI on income - eaned or otherwise.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[king canary 7,714]

1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

22% of pensioners I saw are millionaires (that's me to be fair).

I think I'm right in saying this figure includes the value of their property. There are quite a few pensioners who are asset rich but cash poor and adding extra tax to them could drive them into poverty. 

The ideal situation is increased inheritance tax but that is political suicide. 

[Well b back 3,324]

3 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes - hardly anybody.

There is a huge problem with us boomers though - when  we grew up it was retire at 65 and frankly dead at 70. That kind of how the pension system worked and put money 'aside'. Today we live much longer, we have a huge number of OAPs and a dwindling tax base to support them. The 'triple' lock is unsustainable (fix that for long term brave thinking Sunak!) .

22% of pensioners I saw are millionaires (that's me to be fair). Hence we to be thinking about taxing those that can afford it more to pay for all their 'unexpected' benefits including care and NHS. I'd start be making all pensioners pay full NI on income - eaned or otherwise.

Indeed, living longer is not going to mean the vast majority will be fit to work until they are 80, let alone 105 +. Once people start living above 80 ( as a large majority ) there will be another illness similar to those wiped out ( cancer / dementia ) that gets us.

[Yellow Fever 3,858]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think I'm right in saying this figure includes the value of their property. There are quite a few pensioners who are asset rich but cash poor and adding extra tax to them could drive them into poverty. 

The ideal situation is increased inheritance tax but that is political suicide. 

Yes it includes property but having a realizable asset worth whatever is still money. Are you allowed to live in a palace (or a spacious townhouse in London) tax free because you won't downsize?

[Yellow Fever 3,858]

7 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Indeed, living longer is not going to mean the vast majority will be fit to work until they are 80, let alone 105 +. Once people start living above 80 ( as a large majority ) there will be another illness similar to those wiped out ( cancer / dementia ) that gets us.

Both my very elderly parents are alive WBB (yes threatening NFC's record, one for certain) and I'm on constant 'call'. However, its obvious now quality of life not quantity. People do just get tired of the struggle and check-out.

[NFN FC 1,123]

49 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But the Government is the one raising the retiremnt age. The same Governments who hand out pensions after one term as an MP.

You carry on working if you want. Many will be incapable.

If they're incapable before they reach retirement age, they can claim disability benefits.

[NFN FC 1,123]

38 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Agreed YF, what he was saying was that hundreds of thousands live to be 105 + I don’t dispute for 1 second my grandkids have a fare chance of living much older, but who knows what that will bring with a deteriorating planet and a rising world population. Starvation or a war could change that overnight.

Never said hundreds of thousands 

[TheGunnShow 6,139]

It is true that the pension scheme is stretched and I think that's what NFN's driving at - the pension scheme's having to support more people for longer. I save in a pension, but I'm pretty much happy with the idea of working until the day I drop dead - as a translator I just need my faculties to work reasonably well as it's not physically arduous.

I'd be more concerned about the potential proclivity to dementia when people retire, but accept people in more strenuous jobs do not have this as an option.

[king canary 7,714]

12 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

It is true that the pension scheme is stretched and I think that's what NFN's driving at - the pension scheme's having to support more people for longer. I save in a pension, but I'm pretty much happy with the idea of working until the day I drop dead - as a translator I just need my faculties to work reasonably well as it's not physically arduous.

I'd be more concerned about the potential proclivity to dementia when people retire, but accept people in more strenuous jobs do not have this as an option.

You're also obviously quite privileged in that you're in a job/career you obviously really enjoy. Most are not and working until the day they drop is deeply unappealing even if the job you do isn't physically arduous. 

[TheGunnShow 6,139]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

You're also obviously quite privileged in that you're in a job/career you obviously really enjoy. Most are not and working until the day they drop is deeply unappealing even if the job you do isn't physically arduous. 

Agree totally with the second half, not really in agreement that being in a job/career I thoroughly enjoy is a privilege though, especially when I spent a decade or so learning everything I needed to be able to do it!

[Yellow Fever 3,858]

8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

It is true that the pension scheme is stretched and I think that's what NFN's driving at - the pension scheme's having to support more people for longer. I save in a pension, but I'm pretty much happy with the idea of working until the day I drop dead - as a translator I just need my faculties to work reasonably well as it's not physically arduous.

I'd be more concerned about the potential proclivity to dementia when people retire, but accept people in more strenuous jobs do not have this as an option.

That the problem TGS. If you're still 'enjoying' and nothing untoward then carry on. I enjoy my job but ask me 8 hours through a 13 hour flight and I'll give you a different answer (never again). The problem more generally is that we have an 'entitled' pensioner generation that as a whole can't grasp the uncomfortable truth that they promised themselves more (pensions, care, nhs) than we can realistically afford to pay. Add to that many (not all) made large unearned sums via property (I bought my first in London for £30000) - and still do - and we can see the problem. In fact lack of funds is clearly the issue today with the collapsing NHS and Care. Need a GP - wait a month. 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, NFN FC said:

If they're incapable before they reach retirement age, they can claim disability benefits.

Oh, so it isn't money then? And you said you would carry on working until 80. And I said many would be incapable (of working until they were 80). And if you were on benefits, it would revert to the state pension when you each the qualifying age.

[NFN FC 1,123]

What I'm saying is:

As the population lives longer and longer, the retirement age has to go up and up.

By the time I get to retire, it'll be a higher age than it is now.

I am preparing to work until I'm 80.

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

16 hours ago, NFN FC said:

What I'm saying is:

As the population lives longer and longer, the retirement age has to go up and up.

By the time I get to retire, it'll be a higher age than it is now.

I am preparing to work until I'm 80.

 

 

It doesn't have to go up. The speed of change will accelerate even more. Ricardo will tell you how printing has changed and needs far less people. Now if the world would understand that we face an uncertain future if the greed continues and would look at a greater share in wealth for those producing it, their can be more leisure and retirement. Even Thatcher, who was a mare but not as greedy as the current bunch, believed we could all share in the wealth.

And the rest of the world might eventually be free of debt and its high interest payments and be able to sustain itself.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

On 06/10/2023 at 08:05, duke63 said:

In 20 years time people won’t own a car anymore. Want to travel locally just ring a driverless Uber and it will do the job. 
Travel longer distance will be by train. 
We are decades behind the rest of Europe with travel policy. Business Will increasingly look at the UK and see it as a backwater not worth investing in unless we change our political thinking. We cannot continue to think we can just live in the past. 

What happens if I don't have sufficient social credit score to be able to call for an Uber? Then I won't be able to travel at all. If having my own personal vehicle that gives me the freedom to travel where and when I want and with whom I want then I don't mind being labelled a backwater.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

On 06/10/2023 at 14:58, duke63 said:

Nor has he said what jobs all these elderly people will be doing. 
 

The best thing this country could do is make offshore tax havens illegal, taxing all the assets in the Crown dependency ones at 40% and using the cash raised to make Britain a better place for the majority who live here and not for the richest minority. 
 

Im not holding my breath though when the idiots in charge are sill advocating tax cuts when the Country is declining and decaying at a rapid rate and badly in need on infrastructure investment. 

Don't be silly. If this country were to ban offshore tax havens the money would just move to other jurisdictions where tax sheltering is not banned. Not one penny would return to the UK.

And we managed to reverse the decline and decay of the 1970s (yes we have been here before) by big tax cuts in the 1980s (among other measures)

[duke63 548]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

What happens if I don't have sufficient social credit score to be able to call for an Uber? Then I won't be able to travel at all. If having my own personal vehicle that gives me the freedom to travel where and when I want and with whom I want then I don't mind being labelled a backwater.

Private cars will be taxed off local roads. Self driving cars will make owning one pointless. 

[duke63 548]

7 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Don't be silly. If this country were to ban offshore tax havens the money would just move to other jurisdictions where tax sheltering is not banned. Not one penny would return to the UK.

And we managed to reverse the decline and decay of the 1970s (yes we have been here before) by big tax cuts in the 1980s (among other measures)

Which is why you make the tax system such that if you live in the UK then you are taxed in the UK.

Getting rid of non dom status is the first step too that. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

15 hours ago, duke63 said:

Which is why you make the tax system such that if you live in the UK then you are taxed in the UK.

Getting rid of non dom status is the first step too that. 

Then those people will just upsticks and move to another country. 300k individuals in this country pay 30% of all income tax paid to the Government. If they left the UK then that tax would be paid by the rest of us. You want to pay another 10% income tax or whatever?