Tzolis

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

On 26/08/2023 at 21:49, Kingston Yellow said:

 

Completely different. We didn’t waste £10m on Mumba. And nor was Tsoliz desirable anywhere in English football. 

Yes it is different! we still own the one we wasted the money on and sold the one we should of kept 😂

[Kingston Yellow 220]

14 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Yes it is different! we still own the one we wasted the money on and sold the one we should of kept 😂

Very much like the Webber and Farke situation.  Got rid of the wrong one.

[canarybubbles 1,924]

Going back to van W, I think he would have fitted very well in a Farke side. His style of play reminds me of what Pukki later did for us, with lots of good movement and decent finishing skills. He didn't fit Hughton's style at all. I also think both Mumba and Tzolis would have suited Farke's style (and Tzolis was on his way until he made that disastrous penalty decision). Many people on here probably disagree with me on that, but it's my opinion.

My worry now is that Wagner has to succeed because we've basically ditched all the players who might help us go back to something closer to Farke's approach. And we looked a long way off on Saturday.

Having announced that he was resigning (at a time which suited him, of course), Webber has used this transfer window to tie the hands of his successor. Even if the new guy sacks Wagner, we're committed to something like his playing style until we've had a couple more transfer windows. Webber should have been put on gardening leave the moment he said he was leaving and a replacement quickly found. The club is paying dearly for Webber's inflated ego.

[hogesar 9,709]

12 hours ago, Kingston Yellow said:

Very much like the Webber and Farke situation.  Got rid of the wrong one.

Although, Mumba doesn't even start every game for Plymouth. And despite our team giving him the easiest of rides on Saturday, the one time he had to actually defend, he let Onel beat him as easy as anything resulting in the penalty.

[Google Bot 3,298]

14 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

I get the same feeling about Tzolis. For some reason he didn't fit in here, but he'll have a decent career elsewhere, I think, unless he's hit by injury.

Very much a Farke player for the future when we signed him.  If it's a case of him not fitting here I think that's really subjective based on what kind of identity we should carry, and whether we are who we want to be.

Personally I do prefer technically gifted players over the physical priority that we're grading our squad on, and would prefer to return to that identity of a more controlled, possession based team seeking to unlock opponents with killer passes.

[Mello Yello 2,298]

I'd have Tzolis back tomorrow and in the squad for Saturday's game....

[canarybubbles 1,924]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Very much a Farke player for the future when we signed him.  If it's a case of him not fitting here I think that's really subjective based on what kind of identity we should carry, and whether we are who we want to be.

Personally I do prefer technically gifted players over the physical priority that we're grading our squad on, and would prefer to return to that identity of a more controlled, possession based team seeking to unlock opponents with killer passes.

Broadly speaking, me too. We ditched Farkeball because it didn't work in the Premier League, but we've swapped it for a style of football that doesn't work in the Championship either. We're now a shadow of those teams from 18/19 and 20/21, and, judging by the latest recruitment (Duffy and Hwang) and the players we have allowed to leave, the haemorrhaging of talent hasn't stopped yet.

Edited September 26, 2023 by canarybubbles

[canarybubbles 1,924]

12 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

I'd have Tzolis back tomorrow and in the squad for Saturday's game....

I'm not sure I agree with you, even though I generally rate Tzolis, especially compared to some of the players who have been retained instead of him. But I don't think his skills suit our current style, which is basically kick and rush. If we played him on Saturday, he'd probably do no better than Springett, say, despite the gulf between them in technical ability, because our present set-up wouldn't bring out the best in Tzolis, but highlight his weaknesses. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by canarybubbles

[Mello Yello 2,298]

Just now, canarybubbles said:

I'm not sure I agree with you, even though I generally rate Tzolis, especially compared to some of the players who have been retained instead of him. But I don't think his skills suit our current style, which is basically kick and rush. If we played him on Saturday, he'd probably do no better than Springett, say, despite the gulf between them in technical ability, because our present set-up wouldn't bring out the best in Tzolis, but highlight his weaknesses. 

Well we don't have to agree and I understand and I respect your opinion ....I think Tzolis has a footballing brain and technical ability (and also the required skills) that would offer more and bring others into our game than say young  Springett (and a few others)....We could say that Sara is wasted in our squad....I think he's akin to Tzolis and is probably frustrated with our current style of play....I think Sara and Tzolis wouldn't look out of place in the Premiership which is supposedly what we are aiming for?...

[hogesar 9,709]

Just now, Mello Yello said:

Well we don't have to agree and I understand and I respect your opinion ....I think Tzolis has a footballing brain and technical ability (and also the required skills) that would offer more and bring others into our game than say young  Springett (and a few others)....We could say that Sara is wasted in our squad....I think he's akin to Tzolis and is probably frustrated with our current style of play....I think Sara and Tzolis wouldn't look out of place in the Premiership which is supposedly what we are aiming for?...

The thing is, if Tzolis wouldn't look out of place in the prem why is the best loan he could get to a second division German team?

Half the second tier in Germany is League One at best but more importantly, there's less physicality.

I agree with canarybubbles that just runners like Springett shouldn't be the answer either but there's hundreds of examples of young players who can't make it work in England but have decent careers in less physical leagues. It makes sense he was so good in Greece for example.

[Google Bot 3,298]

2 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

I think Tzolis has a footballing brain and technical ability (and also the required skills) that would offer more and bring others into our game than say young  Springett (and a few others)

His skillset just doesn't fit in with the requirements to make this system work, though.  He fails the first test of relentlessly chasing the ball, hence why he's out on loan.  Plymouth game showed the importance of having technically good players as we were just handing them possession and then watching them run up the field and score - Hence why Forshaw was refreshing when he came on.

The biggest shame is that Hwang is more a Pukki like striker and we're pairing him with wide players hooking crosses into the box.  We really are in for a bit of a ****ty few weeks now we have these forced mis-matches upon us.

My hope is that Sainz comes in and shows some class, or Rowe can learn how to step his game up and raise the intensity/threat.  I'd much prefer Rowe to be down Stacey's side as they overlap so well together and then Fassnacht can go other side, or even put him in the middle while Sarge/Barnes are out.

We have to get that spark re-igniting.

[Mello Yello 2,298]

Just now, hogesar said:

The thing is, if Tzolis wouldn't look out of place in the prem why is the best loan he could get to a second division German team?

Half the second tier in Germany is League One at best but more importantly, there's less physicality.

I agree with canarybubbles that just runners like Springett shouldn't be the answer either but there's hundreds of examples of young players who can't make it work in England but have decent careers in less physical leagues. It makes sense he was so good in Greece for example.

I personally rate Tzolis and I would like to see him in our squad.  Placheta was sent out to loan land and look at him now....He's certainly not the finished article but has certainly improved and is now confidently making chances and things happen.....Regarding Tzolis, he's more physical than the likes of Adam Idah who for a big lad gets knocked off the ball fairly easily....Adam should have been loaned out to get games and confidence under his belt....I think Tzolis and Sara would complement each other....but it's only my personal opinion....

[canarybubbles 1,924]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The thing is, if Tzolis wouldn't look out of place in the prem why is the best loan he could get to a second division German team?

Half the second tier in Germany is League One at best but more importantly, there's less physicality.

I agree with canarybubbles that just runners like Springett shouldn't be the answer either but there's hundreds of examples of young players who can't make it work in England but have decent careers in less physical leagues. It makes sense he was so good in Greece for example.

I think there's a general consensus that football in England tends to be more 'physical' than in continental Europe, and this is often put forward as a reason why many overseas players don't adapt to the game here. 

But this assumes that this physicality is a plus and non-British players are somehow deficient because they don't have it. In that case, how do we explain England's relatively poor history in European competitions, both at club and national level? At club level, for example, compare England's tournament victories with those of Spain. If six-foot-four man-mountains are such a wonderful thing, how come these technically gifted little runts who are so lacking in physicality regularly beat English teams? 

[canarybubbles 1,924]

10 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

His skillset just doesn't fit in with the requirements to make this system work, though.  He fails the first test of relentlessly chasing the ball, hence why he's out on loan.  

Very true IMO. Tzolis seems to be at his best not when he is chasing the opposition down but when he is allowed to loiter on the wing, gets the ball, and runs towards goal. At least two of his Dusseldorf goals have come from this and looked quite similar to one of his goals for us (from memory I think vs Birmingham).

This may be a luxury we can't afford, people might argue, (although we have allowed this luxury to Hernandez on many occasions when he came on as a 'super-sub' in Smith's time) and I see the point. But IMO we have made the mistake of trying to prepare ourselves for the next time we get to the PL and in the process have more or less destroyed the very qualities that got us to the PL in the first place. At the moment there is little sign that we'll be bothering the PL in the foreseeable future. We just seem to become more mediocre by the day.

Following our second promotion under Farke, Webber has compounded bad decision on bad decision, and our current move towards endless running around and greater 'physicality' just seems like the latest one.  

[Mello Yello 2,298]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

His skillset just doesn't fit in with the requirements to make this system work, though.  He fails the first test of relentlessly chasing the ball, hence why he's out on loan.  Plymouth game showed the importance of having technically good players as we were just handing them possession and then watching them run up the field and score - Hence why Forshaw was refreshing when he came on.

The biggest shame is that Hwang is more a Pukki like striker and we're pairing him with wide players hooking crosses into the box.  We really are in for a bit of a ****ty few weeks now we have these forced mis-matches upon us.

My hope is that Sainz comes in and shows some class, or Rowe can learn how to step his game up and raise the intensity/threat.  I'd much prefer Rowe to be down Stacey's side as they overlap so well together and then Fassnacht can go other side, or even put him in the middle while Sarge/Barnes are out.

We have to get that spark re-igniting.

Tzolis to me is a technical player...and as far as I can recall he's never really been a treatment room twisted sock sick-note? He was a bit chunky and struggled a bit when selected but got in shape and had moments of encouraging displays...but he also, and I'm not making excuses, had to do a stint of National Service for his Country.

Again personally I'd have him back regardless of the fact he's only doing well at a supposed lower level standard of football...but it's not going to happen so we have to contend with what we have, which is unfortunately gradually diminishing. Due to lacking quality, through injury, inability or unfortunately loss of form....My flavour of the moment Jo Jo Rowe has gone off the boil slightly, maybe that's due to other teams now targeting him as to be expected and nullifying his threat?

Anyway there's a golden opportunity tomorrow night at 19.45 at Craven Cottage for individuals to express themselves and hopefully they will do and give us a good show of themselves to take into Saturday...If we get trounced at Putney tomorrow and then lose on Saturday?....Well, then what's gonna be the solution in halting the rot?....At least they can't blame Tzolis....

[Google Bot 3,298]

Just now, Mello Yello said:

Again personally I'd have him back regardless of the fact he's only doing well at a supposed lower level standard of football...but it's not going to happen so we have to contend with what we have, which is unfortunately gradually diminishing.

I never would've let him go out on loan personally, but the fact that he did shows us exactly what Wagner sets as his priorities.  It's really sad to see us unwilling to invest into potential talent like that is what bugs me.

What's worst is that we flutter in the wind defining what a City player is, we may as well just have a traditional manager at the club (as opposed to head coach/sporting director) - as we change systems in such contrasting ways that if you're not flavour of the month then you get bypassed.

Tzolis was never going to be a part of this squad, it was clear by the selections in pre-season and the immense favouritism towards Rowe.  I just hope it works out for us, I really like Wagner but anyone who goes with a preference of either Onel, Idah, Springett, Rowe or PP over Tzolis just blows my mind really.  It leaves nothing up the sleeve.

[canarybubbles 1,924]

3 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I never would've let him go out on loan personally, but the fact that he did shows us exactly what Wagner sets as his priorities.  It's really sad to see us unwilling to invest into potential talent like that is what bugs me.

What's worst is that we flutter in the wind defining what a City player is, we may as well just have a traditional manager at the club (as opposed to head coach/sporting director) - as we change systems in such contrasting ways that if you're not flavour of the month then you get bypassed.

Tzolis was never going to be a part of this squad, it was clear by the selections in pre-season and the immense favouritism towards Rowe.  I just hope it works out for us, I really like Wagner but anyone who goes with a preference of either Onel, Idah, Springett, Rowe or PP over Tzolis just blows my mind really.  It leaves nothing up the sleeve.

Tzolis: I think it was probably that he didn't chase back enough. Apparently, the handful of perfectly-weighted, potentially killer balls he played in pre-season mattered less than how much he chased and ran. The kind of passes which none of the players you mentioned could have done, even Rowe (although I am very hopeful about Rowe for his other abilities)

Mumba: his lack of height almost certainly. How shallow is that?

[Google Bot 3,298]

22 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

The kind of passes which none of the players you mentioned could have done, even Rowe (although I am very hopeful about Rowe for his other abilities)

Too true, Rowe looked great to start with, but as per many of our players he does the same thing over and over again and it makes us so easy to read and nullify and he needs to find a way of changing things up to create space again.

I think that ability to react is what we miss the most from Sarge and Barnes - they're both players that respond to what's going on around them, albeit in different ways.

Not saying that Tzolis would come in to this team and improve that as he lacks the minutes, but it's more frustrating that we're lacking IQ beyond the likes of Sara while the physical/explosive play isn't coming together.  There's no fallback here.

[Google Bot 3,298]

Anyone interested, Sky sports youtube are showing the Fortuna match live at the moment:

Edit: They just went down to 10 men and he was swapped for a defender.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Google Bot

[crispeduk 282]

21 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Anyone interested, Sky sports youtube are showing the Fortuna match live at the moment:

Edit: They just went down to 10 men and he was swapped for a defender.

Lol, thanks Google, had missed that, then turned on after your post  just in time to see him walking off 🤣

There's so much live football on tv now it's easy to miss games of interest like this. Maybe we could have a permanent thread where we can flag up fixtures to each other?

[king canary 7,643]

On 26/09/2023 at 10:57, Mello Yello said:

Placheta was sent out to loan land and look at him now....He's certainly not the finished article but has certainly improved and is now confidently making chances and things happen

I'm going to suggest any improvement in Placheta probably had zero to do with his last loan. He played 5 times, got injured and was sent back here. 

[canarybubbles 1,924]

7 hours ago, king canary said:

I'm going to suggest any improvement in Placheta probably had zero to do with his last loan. He played 5 times, got injured and was sent back here. 

Agreed. I think we have to congratulate Wagner on this one. So far he's made a decent player out of someone who seemed to have nothing except sprinting speed.

[East Rider 551]

2 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Agreed. I think we have to congratulate Wagner on this one. So far he's made a decent player out of someone who seemed to have nothing except sprinting speed.

More likely a combination of the many coaches and ,managers he had since being here. In any case he has certainly improved and long may it continue.

Would like to see Tzolis have more game time but a loan may be more beneficial to us in the same way as Placheta 

[hogesar 9,709]

I was talking to a FC Twente fan the other day (they love RvW but he's started losing what pace he did have)....they were excited by the Tzolis loan signing but thought he was absolutely dreadful. When I told him what we'd paid for him he was somewhat in shock.

I wonder if the fact that Tzolis is technically relatively gifted and a fairly natural finisher means he'll always do alright in substandard leagues but never make the step up to a top 5 European league. I dont think the championship really suits him either.

[Capt. Pants 4,263]

If Fortuna get promotion I can't see Tzolis coming back here. 

Hopefully Sainz will prove to be a better option and Rowe continues his development.

[Midlands Yellow 4,018]

On 26/09/2023 at 08:30, hogesar said:

Although, Mumba doesn't even start every game for Plymouth. And despite our team giving him the easiest of rides on Saturday, the one time he had to actually defend, he let Onel beat him as easy as anything resulting in the penalty.

Started every match this season and 47 appearances last season winning 3 awards. One of the first if not the first on Argyles team sheet clearly. 

[Capt. Pants 4,263]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Started every match this season and 47 appearances last season winning 3 awards. One of the first if not the first on Argyles team sheet clearly. 

I thought he was on the bench at least once? 

Anyway Onel might have bulldozed past him, but Jonny Rowe didn't get a look in.

[hogesar 9,709]

39 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Started every match this season and 47 appearances last season winning 3 awards. One of the first if not the first on Argyles team sheet clearly. 

No. He hasn't started every match this season at all. Jesus christ 😅

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

No. He hasn't started every match this season at all. Jesus christ 😅

You're right, there was one game he didn't start.

It was their worst result of the season.

[Midlands Yellow 4,018]

19 minutes ago, hogesar said:

No. He hasn't started every match this season at all. Jesus christ 😅

I bow to your superior knowledge but has started all matches bar one in the Championship. Got a low mark of 8/10 last week so again you’re on the money.