Onel could be out for rest of the season

[Google Bot 3,275]

Just now, rock bus said:

I get you're point but when you've paid £7m+ (think that was the suggested price) then you're surely entitled to expect more than what we've got from Tzolis so far?

So we know two things of his signing: 1. The price paid and, 2. That he's one for the future.

Explain to me how it's fair to use one one of those facts asking why he's not delivered 'more', and ignoring the other?  He got shipped out under Smith, and has only just came back onboard with us.

He secured 3 points for us vs Brum, and he set up Sarge with a sitter at the weekend - Should've been 6 points from his limited involvements with the team - why not try chewing on facts like that?  Sarge is the one who ****ed up the finish yet here's people saying that Tzolis doesn't do anything.  I'm not sure where the bias comes from really.

People talk about body language and there's Aaron's cheating and throwing himself around, and had plenty of sulks - yet he gets a free pass.

The money we paid is totally insignificant until his time is done here and we know what we got for our money.  Consider if Buendia came over to here with a 7-8 mil price tag and the additional pressure that would've placed on him.  

Too many critics and not enough supporters, no wonder Carrow Road is dead nowadays.  We need to get behind these players and have some belief, and if we fall on our faces we do so together. 

[BigFish 1,987]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Emi would sometimes show the exact same body language but his tenacity coupled with his attacking ability completely made up for it and more. Tzolis isn't even 1/10th of the player Emi is, unfortunately.

At 21 Emi was out on loan in the Spanish second tier, so this is not really a fair comparison.

[hogesar 9,672]

2 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Emi born in 1996 and played thousands more minutes versus a lad born in 2002 who's played only a handful.

You need to ask yourself if you're a critic of the club and our players, or a supporter.

You can be a supporter and still decide that you see absolutely nothing in a signing.

The rest of my posting history will kind of reaffirm the support I've given against a backlash of snide remarks from people on here towards both the club and players.

The problem with Tzolis is I don't even see the determination in him to come good on the pitch. Despite that, I get behind him every time he's on the pitch. I just note he is severely lacking in so many basics to be effective in English football - in my opinion.

[hogesar 9,672]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

At 21 Emi was out on loan in the Spanish second tier, so this is not really a fair comparison.

Correct. I wouldn't expect him to be as good. But the body language is similar so it's a comparison from that point of view. And Tzolis did play 42 games for PAOK before coming here.

For me he hasn't looked anywhere resembling something close to Emis raw level when he first joined.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

31 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Correct. I wouldn't expect him to be as good. But the body language is similar so it's a comparison from that point of view. And Tzolis did play 42 games for PAOK before coming here.

For me he hasn't looked anywhere resembling something close to Emis raw level when he first joined.

Of course he's not Emi. So how about we compare him to Sargent? Who has had around 50 starts so far for this club, and has looked good for maybe 8 of those and utter cr*p for nearly all of the others. But free pass for him for some reason. People are falling over themselves on here to criticise a player who made the best pass in the whole game, a moment which should have led to a goal and a victory, and saying nothing about the player who screwed up that pass, as he has screwed up time and time again because he can't do even the basics with the ball at his feet. Yes, Sargent works hard, and runs around a lot. If all we wanted was a player who works hard and runs around a lot but has zero technical ability, I'm sure we could have found somehow similar in L2 at a fraction of the price. But let's attack the players with technical skill, eh, because we all know that in England 'he covered every blade of grass' is the greatest compliment you can pay a player. Which may be why Denmark, Portugal, even Greece have won tournaments while England's history since 1966 has been mainly one of embarrassing failure.

Edited March 21, 2023 by canarybubbles

[repman 635]

My two thoughts on Tzolis have been the same for a while now.

1. He's played next to no football over the last 2 years, he had a run in the Twente team where he started 4 games in a row before getting injured. That's the closest thing he's had to a consistent run to perform on the pitch. 

2. The other point is that it's hard to look good when you're playing in a bad football team. Getting the best out of Tzolis will require us to get him the ball in areas that he can perform in. Just for comparison's sake I got Tzolis' touch map vs Stoke and Onel's vs Preston. Which one of those is more likely to be able to produce?

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 hours ago, Google Bot said:

MWJ rarely gets the blame, so i'd like to finger him, please.

Prostate exam?

[Chelm Canary 404]

22 hours ago, Google Bot said:

So yes, of course he's going to come good - first start for god knows how long, and every player needs minutes

I couldn't watch the game and hope he does come good but suggesting it's a certainty he's going to come good might be jumping the gun a bit. 

For the record I know Tzolis is a ball of raw talent, but is he coachable?

Time will tell.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Chelm Canary

[hogesar 9,672]

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Of course he's not Emi. So how about we compare him to Sargent? Who has had around 50 starts so far for this club, and has looked good for maybe 8 of those and utter cr*p for nearly all of the others. But free pass for him for some reason. People are falling over themselves on here to criticise a player who made the best pass in the whole game, a moment which should have led to a goal and a victory, and saying nothing about the player who screwed up that pass, as he has screwed up time and time again because he can't do even the basics with the ball at his feet. Yes, Sargent works hard, and runs around a lot. If all we wanted was a player who works hard and runs around a lot but has zero technical ability, I'm sure we could have found somehow similar in L2 at a fraction of the price. But let's attack the players with technical skill, eh, because we all know that in England 'he covered every blade of grass' is the greatest compliment you can pay a player. Which may be why Denmark, Portugal, even Greece have won tournaments while England's history since 1966 has been mainly one of embarrassing failure.

Well, hang on.

When Sargent was "just" working hard he was absolutely demolished on here.

His praise has come when the hard work was backed up by 11 goals this season.

[Google Bot 3,275]

4 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

For the record I know Tzolis is a ball of raw talent, but is he coachable?

Not a clue, I see him more central but Wagner seems to want him played wide.  I really don't know.   Pukki is not all that coachable, and instead we've built around him in reaction to his progression at this club.

The same may happen with Tzolis in a central role once he starts to get his man strength and can compete better.   Who knows.  I just see a very talented player who's lacking game-time, beyond that I wouldn't expect to see him stepping up until at least next season as he starts to reach the age of where Emi started to progress with good coaching.

[BigFish 1,987]

On 21/03/2023 at 15:32, hogesar said:

For me he hasn't looked anywhere resembling something close to Emis raw level when he first joined.

Ah Emi, the EPL midfielder who contributed (checks notes) zero assists for Villa this season?

[hogesar 9,672]

7 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Ah Emi, the EPL midfielder who contributed (checks notes) zero assists for Villa this season?

Yes, that Emi. Who is still, regardless, so obviously much more talented than Tzolis.

[king canary 7,606]

15 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Ah Emi, the EPL midfielder who contributed (checks notes) zero assists for Villa this season?

He's got (checks notes)...5 goals though. And (checks notes)...the second most chances created of any Villa player this season.

But no assists. So case closed I guess.

Edited March 23, 2023 by king canary

[BigFish 1,987]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yes, that Emi. Who is still, regardless, so obviously much more talented than Tzolis.

Maybe, maybe not. We will find out in time. Fine player though he is, what is clear is that affection, canary coloured spectacles, and a sense of what might have been all result in him being massively overrated by this club's supporters. As such the comparison doesn't really work.

[hogesar 9,672]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

Maybe, maybe not. We will find out in time. Fine player though he is, what is clear is that affection, canary coloured spectacles, and a sense of what might have been all result in him being massively overrated by this club's supporters. As such the comparison doesn't really work.

I don't need time to tell you Emi is more talented than Tzolis because I have my eyes to do that. 🙂 

[mrD66M 99]

And when is Dowell-dinho back?

😅

[king canary 7,606]

3 hours ago, BigFish said:

Maybe, maybe not. We will find out in time. Fine player though he is, what is clear is that affection, canary coloured spectacles, and a sense of what might have been all result in him being massively overrated by this club's supporters. As such the comparison doesn't really work.

Is he really overrated though?

Since Gerrard was sacked he's been a regular starter and key player for a team that has a very good chance of finishing in the top half of the Premier League and is in the squad of World Cup winners Argentina.

Hardly a player I'd look at and say 'wow he didn't live up to expectations.'

Also, some further context to your 'no assists' point, the xA stat (and I know mileage may vary on how much weight is given to this one) suggests he should have the second most assists of any Villa player this season, suggesting he's creating good chances but those on the other end aren't taking them...

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by king canary

[BigFish 1,987]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

Did it really though?

Since Gerrard was sacked he's been a regular starter and key player for a team that has a very good chance of finishing in the top half of the Premier League and is in the squad of World Cup winners Argentina.

Hardly a player I'd look at and say 'wow he didn't live up to expectations.'

Also, some further context to your 'no assists' point, the xA stat (and I know mileage may vary on how much weight is given to this one) suggests he should have the second most assists of any Villa player this season, suggesting he's creating good chances but those on the other end aren't taking them...

 

You miss the point. Buendia is a good player. Good enough to be a regular starter at a club that, as you put it, has a chance of getting in the top half of the EPL. When he went to Villa the rumour mill had him heading to Arsenal, but they went for Odegard instead. You think they regret that? Not a chance. Posters on here said he should wait for a Champions League team. Has it happened, no. Will it happen, unlikely. Is Buendia worth more now than what we got for him, well that's a no too. Is he as good as Maddison, clearly not. Did Argentina take him to the World Cup, another no. Would we be a better team with Buendia, well that definitely is a yes.

Tzolis is 21 and had bad luck with injuries this season, Comparing the two was, and is, pretty meaningless. He has the technical ability to be a very good player, possibly one of @Parma Ham's gone mouldy's famous weapons. We don't know if he will be, but clearly there are people in football who think he has a chance. Particularly seeing as at the same age Getafe shipped Buendia out on loan to the second tier of Spanish football.

[repman 635]

At the end of the day Buendia was an absolute steal and should've been completely out of our league considering where we were at the time. The fact we were able to sign him reflects more on the fact that the rest of football was asleep at the wheel. 

James Maddison is a month older than Buendia and registered 22 goals and assists with us in 17/18. We sold him to Leicester that summer for £25m. Buendia got 19 goals and assists in a side that got relegated and we signed him for what eventually amounted to something like £5m I believe. 

I don't think Tzolis will ever be as good as Buendia but it shows how the market has changed in the years since.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

13 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't need time to tell you Emi is more talented than Tzolis because I have my eyes to do that. 🙂 

I have to congratulate you on your rhetorical skills. You've got everyone on here comparing Tzolis - a young people who was given almost no playing time under Smith - with Emi - a player who almost everyone would agree is one of the best to ever wear the yellow and green. The players Tzolis should be compared with are Sargent, Dowell, Hernandez, Marquinhos, and the question should be, 'Does he have more or less to offer than them?'

Obviously your answer would be 'less'. Fair enough. We all have our opinions about players. But when you state - as you have - that Tzolis has no technical ability, it sounds like bias to me. Someone without technical ability would not have worked his way between the two defenders as he did for his goal a few games ago, would not have been capable of making that inch-perfect, supremely weighted pass to Sargent, nor he would have been able to escape from the attention of two defenders in a corner near our own goal line with a couple of flicks (as he did at one point in the Stoke game). As you know, I do not have a high opinion of Sargent, but if I stated that he doesn't have stamina, it would be so ridiculous that it could be nothing but bias on my part, and it would detract from, rather than further, my argument. Question Tzolis's mental fortitude or point out his lack of speed and lack of physical condition - these are good points, so there is no need to make statements that are palpably untrue.

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

Tzolis? There's something there, but he's no George Best or even the superstar in the making that we were led to believe he would be. I have remained on his side throughout and made all the usual excuses for his lack of impact at Carrow Road, but I am beginning to feel that if he doesn't show more in the opportunities that Webber seems prepared to give him in the next eight games, then we have a massive disappointment on our hands.  

That Sargent is a different player altogether goes without say. Instantly likeable, his energy and work rate are immense, and predictably, he has become a fan's favourite at the Championship level. He seems a million miles away from being Premier League level though, and that was the intent when he was brought in. Even though age is on his (Sargent's) side, perhaps Tzolis is the most likely of the two to eventually succeed at the top level. The jury needs to be out for a very long time, though. 

Their combined cost and wages might have been better spent on a more established striker with some reputation. If we do sneak a promotion this season, then Webber will need to fork out appropriate funds at last, whether or not Pukki departs. There's not much chance of that as things stand at the moment. 

Hernandez will be a big miss if he is out of the run-in, and for all the obvious reasons. I was actually surprised that he was loaned out when he was, and seem to recall that he stood out a bit during the tail end of Daniel Farke's first season in the Prem.

Edited March 24, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[hogesar 9,672]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

I have to congratulate you on your rhetorical skills. You've got everyone on here comparing Tzolis - a young people who was given almost no playing time under Smith - with Emi - a player who almost everyone would agree is one of the best to ever wear the yellow and green. The players Tzolis should be compared with are Sargent, Dowell, Hernandez, Marquinhos, and the question should be, 'Does he have more or less to offer than them?'

Obviously your answer would be 'less'. Fair enough. We all have our opinions about players. But when you state - as you have - that Tzolis has no technical ability, it sounds like bias to me. Someone without technical ability would not have worked his way between the two defenders as he did for his goal a few games ago, would not have been capable of making that inch-perfect, supremely weighted pass to Sargent, nor he would have been able to escape from the attention of two defenders in a corner near our own goal line with a couple of flicks (as he did at one point in the Stoke game). As you know, I do not have a high opinion of Sargent, but if I stated that he doesn't have stamina, it would be so ridiculous that it could be nothing but bias on my part, and it would detract from, rather than further, my argument. Question Tzolis's mental fortitude or point out his lack of speed and lack of physical condition - these are good points, so there is no need to make statements that are palpably untrue.

Of course, you could always quote me correctly firstly.

The entire second half of your post is nonsense as I said earlier that Tzolis has "some technical ability" not "none". Do I think he's technically poorer than Emi? Than Wes? Than Maddison? Of course I do. On a technical level I don't see too much more than what Onel offers, perhaps he's a better finisher but we've only seen it once so hard to tell. 

I certainly think, for example, Dowell has more technical ability than Tzolis. I think Dowell reads the game better, has better vision, works harder and doesn't give up when he loses the ball (which he does less than Tzolis, too). 

[king canary 7,606]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

I have to congratulate you on your rhetorical skills. You've got everyone on here comparing Tzolis - a young people who was given almost no playing time under Smith - with Emi - a player who almost everyone would agree is one of the best to ever wear the yellow and green. The players Tzolis should be compared with are Sargent, Dowell, Hernandez, Marquinhos, and the question should be, 'Does he have more or less to offer than them?'

Obviously your answer would be 'less'. Fair enough. We all have our opinions about players. But when you state - as you have - that Tzolis has no technical ability, it sounds like bias to me. Someone without technical ability would not have worked his way between the two defenders as he did for his goal a few games ago, would not have been capable of making that inch-perfect, supremely weighted pass to Sargent, nor he would have been able to escape from the attention of two defenders in a corner near our own goal line with a couple of flicks (as he did at one point in the Stoke game). As you know, I do not have a high opinion of Sargent, but if I stated that he doesn't have stamina, it would be so ridiculous that it could be nothing but bias on my part, and it would detract from, rather than further, my argument. Question Tzolis's mental fortitude or point out his lack of speed and lack of physical condition - these are good points, so there is no need to make statements that are palpably untrue.

I think you're right he clearly has some technical ability. But the fact you're having to focus on one single pass from the Stoke game to me says quite a bit. Yes it was a good ball, yes Sargent should have done better with the chance but that was Tzolis' only moment of any quality in that match. I'm also not sure why you're so keen to make a direct Tzolis/Sargent comparison as they are clearly different players with different roles. Even then though the numbers v Stoke don't paint a very pretty picture.

Pass Completion: Sargent 67% (3rd out of the 11 starters), Tzolis 50% (8th best of the 11 starters)

Total Passes: Sargent 24, Tzolis 20

Accurate Passes- Sargent 16, Tzolis 10

Times Dispossessed- Sargent 0, Tzolis 2.

Etc etc.

That is without getting into stats where Sargent is clearly going to be better than Tzolis like headers won, tackles etc.

Now what the stats don't show are things like poor touches by Sargent which I don't deny he has a fair few of so it clearly isn't the be all and end all. But the picture you seem to want to paint is a supremely talented creator feeding a donkey upfront which just doesn't reflect reality in my view. Sargent has his limitations but Tzolis has them by the bucketload too.

 

[hogesar 9,672]

14 hours ago, BigFish said:

Tzolis is 21 and had bad luck with injuries this season, Comparing the two was, and is, pretty meaningless. He has the technical ability to be a very good player, possibly one of @Parma Ham's gone mouldy's famous weapons. We don't know if he will be, but clearly there are people in football who think he has a chance. Particularly seeing as at the same age Getafe shipped Buendia out on loan to the second tier of Spanish football.

@Parma Ham's gone mouldy definition of weapon normally refers to somebody who can, perhaps with tactical ignorance, perform the unknown - often with pace, trickery etc. Onel is a Championship weapon because he can beat players for fun and get us up the pitch. 

Tzolis doesn't come across as any sort of weapon. No real pace, no real strength, was eased off the ball comfortably in our last game from a midtable Championship side - unless his weapon is letting teams counter us?

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

@BigFish @hogesar

A weapon is any player who has any sort of skill, special ability or threat that both cannot be ignored by the opposition coach and - crucially - forces said opposition coach to change their own preferred set up methodology and tactics to account for the weapon. 
 

@PurpleCanary picked up that Onel is a sort of weapon. It is true, though the problem with Onel is that his superficial  weapon-like abilities so rarely translate into concrete outcomes. A real weapon - not necessarily a brilliant player - will do what he can do. He will repeatedly fire his weapon. Andy Carroll say. 

Real weapons cannot be strategically ignored by the opposition. They must compromise their ideal plan. Despite the (trite and perennially untrue) managerism, they cannot just ‘play our own game (and not worry about what the opposition are doing)’.

Parma 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[repman 635]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

 

@PurpleCanary picked up that Onel is a sort of weapon. It is true, though the problem with Onel is that his superficial  weapon-like abilities so rarely translate into concrete outcomes. A real weapon - not necessarily a brilliant player - will do what he can do. He will repeatedly fire his weapon. Andy Carroll say. 

Real weapons cannot be strategically ignored by the opposition. They must compromise their ideal plan. Despite the (trite and perennially untrue) managerism, they cannot just ‘play our own game (and not worry about what the opposition are doing)’.

Parma 

I think the closest comparison for Onel is possibly Adama Traore. They're both dribble heavy players and the fact that dribbling 10 yards will take longer than passing it I think somewhat tricks the mind. Onel so often feels like a standout because he has the ball for so long compared to most other players.

[AJ 1,220]

2 hours ago, repman said:

I think the closest comparison for Onel is possibly Adama Traore. They're both dribble heavy players and the fact that dribbling 10 yards will take longer than passing it I think somewhat tricks the mind. Onel so often feels like a standout because he has the ball for so long compared to most other players.

Players have different skills and Onel is rarely going to play a killer pass but can carry the ball a long way to get territorial advantage. He also disrupts their defence, especially if coming off the bench, as suddenly they have to double up on the flanks to stop him exploiting space in the fullback positions and running towards the box. This is why he works well in the side with players like McLean and Nunez who are quite good at then picking up the ball from him and spraying it diagonally to the other side of the pitch where Aaron's is usually waiting. This is where if we had a proper right winger as well we could probably be better balanced. Marquinhos has looked alright in that position to be fair. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

18 hours ago, repman said:

I think the closest comparison for Onel is possibly Adama Traore. They're both dribble heavy players and the fact that dribbling 10 yards will take longer than passing it I think somewhat tricks the mind. Onel so often feels like a standout because he has the ball for so long compared to most other players.

It is worth noting that fans habitually remember the good things a player does and - particularly if that player is a wide player - do not factor in sufficiently the weaknesses of said player in a defensive, structural or strategic sense. 

Plusvalenza is an Italian term meaning ‘the net result of the good things, subtracted from the bad things’.

Frankly there are players that fans love who would record a negative score. Onel - sadly - would too often be one of them. 

On the other hand a player who can be absolutely relied upon to do what he does, who will do it every week, who perhaps also adds other unseen psychological or team elements - let’s say MacLean - may well get picked consistently by successive managers of different approaches…precisely because he is at least a zero score as a plusvalenza. 

I do not wish to criticise anyone or spoil their love for players, though coaches must see far beyond the occasional spurt of something good that leads to a goal (or not). They must weigh this against all the wayward passes that cause turnovers that lead to chances and goals, the difficulty in keeping the player in suitable defensive positions at certain ‘fixed points’ in the game (a vital coaching instruction), the lack of awareness - that fans don’t see, but a MacLean has to cover for (perhaps to the detriment of his own job) - …that is what coaches are constantly calculating…

…they simply do not have the luxury of remembering …’that goal he set up alway at Luton last October…that’s what he can do!….’…

Parma

Edited March 25, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[hogesar 9,672]

13 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

It is worth noting that fans habitually remember the good things a player does and - particularly if that player is a wide player - do not factor in sufficiently the weaknesses of said player in a defensive, structural or strategic sense. 

Plusvalenza is an Italian term meaning ‘the net result of the good things, subtracted from the bad things’.

Frankly there are players that fans love who would record a negative score. Onel - sadly - would too often be one of them. 

On the other hand a player who can be absolutely relied upon to do what he does, who will do it every week, who perhaps also adds other unseen psychological or team elements - let’s say MacLean - may well get picked consistently by successive managers of different approaches…precisely because he is at least a zero score as a plusvalenza. 

I do not wish to criticise anyone or spoil their love for players, though coaches must see far beyond the occasional spurt of something good that leads to a goal (or not). They must weigh this against all the wayward passes that cause turnovers that lead to chances and goals, the difficulty in keeping the player is suitable defensive positions at certain ‘fixed points’ in the game (a vital coaching instruction), the lack of awareness - that fans don’t see, but a MacLean has to cover for (perhaps to the detriment of his own job) - …that is what coaches are constantly calculating…

…they simply do not have the luxury of remembering …’that goal he set up alway at Luton last October…that’s what he can do!….’…

Parma

Thanks Parma. Not least for positively referencing McLean 😉

Essentially then Onel is a sort of weapon. Or more so a weapon at a low(er) level. I.e watching teams like Birmingham in the lower reaches of the championship deciding two double up on Onel at every opportunity. 

So my points persists. What special actions does the opposition have to do to counter Tzolis? Beyond celebrate? 🤓

[Mengo 822]

On 21/03/2023 at 10:10, Google Bot said:

MWJ rarely gets the blame, so i'd like to finger him, please.

Wynnie is always just nipping out for a quick fag , then the decisions are made . Can't blame him cause he likes a wee ciggy every now and then 😂😉🤫