Middlesbrough & Bournemouth

[shefcanary 2,503]

Things we have learnt today.

• Middlesbrough reduced their pre-tax loss last season from £30.8m to £19.5m (£15.3m after tax), as revenue rose £12.4m (86%) from £14.5m to £26.9m, though profit on player sales fell £2.9m to just £1.4m and other operating income decreased £3.3m to £1.2m. Operating expenses were £4.6m (9%) lower. Gibson has pumped in £150m over the past 10 years. 
• Gibson can hardly be accused of not putting his hand into his pocket, though some owners have been even more generous, e.g. his £113m in the 10 years up to 2021 was pretty good, but much lower than QPR £285m, Stoke City £195m and Cardiff City £194m. The sad reality is that the Championship has an endless appetite for owner funding.

• A partnership led by American businessman Bill Foley has completed its takeover of Bournemouth. Previous owner Maxim Demin has sold his 100% stake in the Cherries to Foley's Black Knight Football Club. Foley, the owner of NHL ice hockey franchise the Vegas Golden Knights, assumes the position of chairman. In a statement, the club said Foley was "committed to providing the investment to sustain and build upon Bournemouth's recent accomplishments".

Attanasio has plenty to ponder.

[GMF 757]

A general observation on Championship funding by owners, this is something that I have wrestled with.

On the one hand, just like any other business, football clubs need periodic investment, so I don’t have any objections to this principle.

On the other hand, though, the Championship is a complete financial basket case. It really cannot be in the best interests of the clubs, and the game in general, to be so reliant upon open ended funding from owners.

[Capt. Pants 4,330]

Demin paid £850k for his stake in Bournemouth but I can't see yet what Foley bought it for, or how much Demin has invested in the club since they were in L2.

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,874]

Bournmouth is very much one of those clubs I really don't like. Feel free to call it jealously and it probably is to be fair but the fact that they of all clubs with their tiny rusty shed of a stadium in the middle of a sleepy OAP retirement zone who often only just scrape around 8 to 9 fans a leauge match end up getting all the money and rich owners and then the media suck them off when they spend far more than anyone else and then do well and pretend its all one big fairy tale and an inspiration.. Ugh

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Gibson can hardly be accused of not putting his hand into his pocket, though some owners have been even more generous

I'm possibly being pedantic, although possibly not, but Middlesbrough FC is owned by a holding company called Gibson-O'Neill Company Ltd, which is itself the umbrella/holding company for several other businesses.

The money comes in the form of loans from the holding company which makes most of its money through ownership of a huge chemical logistics company. Gibson has a controlling stake in that company if you add together his personal shares + the shares which are owned by companies that he wholly owns, but its a bit more complex than simply Steve Gibson throwing his own money at Middlesbrough... firstly, there is another major shareholder in the holding company, but also presumably Middlesbrough being loss making means that it is reducing the corporation tax liability of the holding company which makes large profits from the chemical business, whilst the debt sits on the balance sheet as an asset.

Obviously if that corporate entity wasn't burning through £1m a month propping up Middlesbrough it would have more capital to distribute to Gibson and other shareholders in the form of dividends, so that's not to say that he isn't generous, however I suspect the "£1m a month" that is used to subsidise Middlesbrough FC would be nowhere near £1m a month if it was retained due to complex tax structures etc which would mean that £1m isn't subject to 20% corporation tax and then subject to 39.35% additional rate dividend taxes before any money actually hit the account of Steve Gibson. 

£1m a month from the company that Gibson co-owns could be more like a two or three hundred grand a month actual real life net cost to Steve Gibson as an individual considering another person owns 25% of that company, corporation tax, and then dividend taxes, and that is assuming that nobody ever buys the club and commits to repaying that debt. Still, that is more than Delia and hubby could sink into a club over decades. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[nutty nigel 7,669]

1m pounds each month to pay obscene amounts of money to footballers beggars belief. Who in their right mind would do that...

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 926]

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Bournmouth is very much one of those clubs I really don't like. Feel free to call it jealously and it probably is to be fair but the fact that they of all clubs with their tiny rusty shed of a stadium in the middle of a sleepy OAP retirement zone who often only just scrape around 8 to 9 fans a leauge match end up getting all the money and rich owners and then the media suck them off when they spend far more than anyone else and then do well and pretend its all one big fairy tale and an inspiration.. Ugh

Quoted as paying £150 million on the bbc 

[Justin time 182]

38 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Quoted as paying £150 million on the bbc 

That much! Just to entertain 8 or9 fans.😂

[shefcanary 2,503]

2 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'm possibly being pedantic, although possibly not, but Middlesbrough FC is owned by a holding company called Gibson-O'Neill Company Ltd, which is itself the umbrella/holding company for several other businesses.

The money comes in the form of loans from the holding company which makes most of its money through ownership of a huge chemical logistics company. Gibson has a controlling stake in that company if you add together his personal shares + the shares which are owned by companies that he wholly owns, but its a bit more complex than simply Steve Gibson throwing his own money at Middlesbrough... firstly, there is another major shareholder in the holding company, but also presumably Middlesbrough being loss making means that it is reducing the corporation tax liability of the holding company which makes large profits from the chemical business, whilst the debt sits on the balance sheet as an asset.

Obviously if that corporate entity wasn't burning through £1m a month propping up Middlesbrough it would have more capital to distribute to Gibson and other shareholders in the form of dividends, so that's not to say that he isn't generous, however I suspect the "£1m a month" that is used to subsidise Middlesbrough FC would be nowhere near £1m a month if it was retained due to complex tax structures etc which would mean that £1m isn't subject to 20% corporation tax and then subject to 39.35% additional rate dividend taxes before any money actually hit the account of Steve Gibson. 

£1m a month from the company that Gibson co-owns could be more like a two or three hundred grand a month actual real life net cost to Steve Gibson as an individual considering another person owns 25% of that company, corporation tax, and then dividend taxes, and that is assuming that nobody ever buys the club and commits to repaying that debt. Still, that is more than Delia and hubby could sink into a club over decades. 

Thanks for this further update. I was aware of tax losses being surrendered but Swiss Ramble for once didn't dig down to the ultimate ownership. Attanasio of course has potential to use offshore company shields to reduce his tax exposure, should he complete a takeover.

[shefcanary 2,503]

1 hour ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Quoted as paying £150 million on the bbc 

Interesting. This values B'mùff at 50% more than what Norwich have effectively been valued by Attanasio's C Preference share terms. Given the smaller stadium and their recent yo yo'ing it's difficult to see why there is such a disparity in value; has Attansio effectively got a bargain?

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,906]

12 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Interesting. This values B'mùff at 50% more than what Norwich have effectively been valued by Attanasio's C Preference share terms. Given the smaller stadium and their recent yo yo'ing it's difficult to see why there is such a disparity in value; has Attansio effectively got a bargain?

Premier League status, perhaps?

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,906]

6 hours ago, GMF said:

A general observation on Championship funding by owners, this is something that I have wrestled with.

On the one hand, just like any other business, football clubs need periodic investment, so I don’t have any objections to this principle.

On the other hand, though, the Championship is a complete financial basket case. It really cannot be in the best interests of the clubs, and the game in general, to be so reliant upon open ended funding from owners.

It also shows how powerful and out of control the Premier League has become. Not only the desperation to get there, but it also shows how much the league as a whole has to spend in a futile attempt to keep up, but the gap is still absolutely massive.

[By Hook or Ian crook 926]

3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Interesting. This values B'mùff at 50% more than what Norwich have effectively been valued by Attanasio's C Preference share terms. Given the smaller stadium and their recent yo yo'ing it's difficult to see why there is such a disparity in value; has Attansio effectively got a bargain?

Anything is only worth what anyone is willing to pay I guess 🤷‍♂️

[cambridgeshire canary 6,874]

13 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

It also shows how powerful and out of control the Premier League has become. Not only the desperation to get there, but it also shows how much the league as a whole has to spend in a futile attempt to keep up, but the gap is still absolutely massive.

Gap between the top 10 and the rest of the Prem is getting bonkers too. Becoming the norm for any team in the top ten to just go and splash 50 million on random players and pay them 100 grand a week if not more. End of the day the more years that pass the more impossible it gets for clubs like us to survive in the top flight due to the insane financial differences. Every day I hope the Prem money bubble bursts yet it never does and if anything just gets worse and worse with each passing season

[Capt. Pants 4,330]

21 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Gap between the top 10 and the rest of the Prem is getting bonkers too. Becoming the norm for any team in the top ten to just go and splash 50 million on random players and pay them 100 grand a week if not more. End of the day the more years that pass the more impossible it gets for clubs like us to survive in the top flight due to the insane financial differences. Every day I hope the Prem money bubble bursts yet it never does and if anything just gets worse and worse with each passing season

I'd argue it isn't. In fact there's only 9 points between 10th and bottom. Plus in the bottom 3 are Wolves and Forest who are richer than most clubs in the EPL.

What it does show there is absolutely no point getting promoted with our current model.

[Danke bitte 967]

24 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I'd argue it isn't. In fact there's only 9 points between 10th and bottom. Plus in the bottom 3 are Wolves and Forest who are richer than most clubs in the EPL.

What it does show there is absolutely no point getting promoted with our current model.

Which model is that? Because at present I struggle to see where we actually are other than in a limbo. It’s no bad thing, it’s actually quite exciting to see how things will pan out with the insidious takeover.

[Nuff Said 5,248]

16 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Interesting. This values B'mùff at 50% more than what Norwich have effectively been valued by Attanasio's C Preference share terms. Given the smaller stadium and their recent yo yo'ing it's difficult to see why there is such a disparity in value; has Attansio effectively got a bargain?

 

16 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Premier League status, perhaps?

Also three years’ parachute payments (assuming they continue in their present form).

Edited December 14, 2022 by Nuff Said

[essex canary 516]

 Normal for Norfolk I guess.

Other clubs such as Middlesbrough set themselves up for effectively huge taxpayer subsidies whilst we just pay from our own pockets. Note also that Steve Gibson doesn't pay his own family members. He knows what family Club to go to for that.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

22 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

1m pounds each month to pay obscene amounts of money to footballers beggars belief. Who in their right mind would do that...

Somebody who owns most of two businesses with turnovers of £320m and £281m a year. 

Probably no different to the layman spending a grand a year on season tickets, a replica shirt and half time pies, beers and bovril when it comes to relatively.

Also, the debt to Gibson is £120m but he's been owner 28 years, so its more like £4.2m a year over the tenure, but that tenure started with a new stadium build which would have cost a fortune in interest if funded with external debt. 

[nutty nigel 7,669]

42 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Somebody who owns most of two businesses with turnovers of £320m and £281m a year. 

Probably no different to the layman spending a grand a year on season tickets, a replica shirt and half time pies, beers and bovril when it comes to relatively.

Also, the debt to Gibson is £120m but he's been owner 28 years, so its more like £4.2m a year over the tenure, but that tenure started with a new stadium build which would have cost a fortune in interest if funded with external debt. 

I don't doubt you're right Teemu.

But I remember what you were posting during the pandemic and that reset we all assumed would happen. 

I'm still grumpy about it and how it's worse rather than better. I'm probably best ignored.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

37 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I don't doubt you're right Teemu.

But I remember what you were posting during the pandemic and that reset we all assumed would happen. 

I'm still grumpy about it and how it's worse rather than better. I'm probably best ignored.

Oh I haven't changed my opinion on that at all. 

But when the worlds richest man is spending £44bn on a social media platform for an ego trip and focused on trying to escape the planet rather than fixing any of the issues on it, in a global context Steve Gibson subsidising the wages of ungrateful and disloyal millionaires and their grubby agents is a minor thing really. 

And at least if he's blowing it on English football he isn't squirreling it all away to the Cayman Islands or Panama or wherever it is that the super rich hoard their wealth now. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 hours ago, essex canary said:

Other clubs such as Middlesbrough set themselves up for effectively huge taxpayer subsidies whilst we just pay from our own pockets. 

Eh? 

Short memories, weren't we one of only two Prem sides out of 20 to take government furlough cash?

[Ulfotto 664]

Couple of random points here Abramovich was effective owned billions by Chelsea when he sold it. The situation could have been different if he dug his heels in.
 

I feel the big difference now is that the Premier league is sooo much bigger than all of the rest of Europe. The rest of Europe is essentially a feeder system for the premier league bar PSG and Bayern Munich. Meaning you can attract the type of player you could only dream about 5 or 10 years ago.

Plus the obvious no one makes money from Football it is a money pit any profits have to be reinvested that is the business model.

[essex canary 516]

20 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Eh? 

Short memories, weren't we one of only two Prem sides out of 20 to take government furlough cash?

With our £118 million wage bill last season, our last home defeat was against a team spending only £28 million. Then again the previous month we lost against a team spending only £14 million.

Maybe Delia could write a book on the socialist principles involved  and how the taxpayer really matters. If Waterstones files it under 'comedy' maybe I will buy a copy.