Mark Attanasio

[GMF 754]

3 hours ago, essex canary said:

These issues don't arise at Clubs like Cambridge United. They shouldn't arise at NCFC either as Robin Santy's recent comments that I have quoted reflect. It is to be hoped that all Canaries Trust officers would be singing from the same hymn sheet on such issues and pursuing the issues with viguor at Supporter Consultation meetings.

Robin’s pieces in the Pink Un are personal opinions, not Trust policy statements. That’s not to say that they don’t reflect many of our views, but they shouldn’t be taken as gospel for such. If there’s a group decision on a particular topic, the majority views are presumed and anyone who disagrees has to agree to the collective decision. If you think that isn’t happening, then by all means take it up via the appropriate channels.

Edited December 26, 2023 by GMF
Typo

[essex canary 497]

3 hours ago, GMF said:

Robin’s pieces in the Pink Un are personal opinions, not Trust policy statements. That’s not to say that they don’t reflect many of our views, but they shouldn’t be taken as gospel for such. If there’s a group decision on a particular topic, the majority views are presumed and anyone who disagrees has to agree to the collective decision. If you think that isn’t happening, then by all means take it up via the appropriate channels.

Thanks. The expected modus operandi albeit that if a controversial personal opinion is held reinforced clarity would be helpful.

[GMF 754]

On 26/12/2023 at 12:31, PurpleCanary said:

At a tangent I notice Ratcliffe is acquiring 25 per cent of Man Utd's shares, and seemingly without having to make an offer for the rest. If so perhaps the rules are different in the US, where Man Utd is listed.

Just been looking into this and The Athletic shows that United, being listed on the New York stock exchange, submitted a 241 page filing with the US Securities and Exchange Commission.

They expect regulatory approval from SEC within 4 months. They’re also expecting approval under the Premier League’s Owners’ and Directors’ Test within eight weeks.

Meanwhile, in NCFC land, the expectation of approval “before the AGM”, which was on the 30 November, has morphed into 12 weeks and counting. 

 

[Soldier on 160]

3 hours ago, GMF said:

Just been looking into this and The Athletic shows that United, being listed on the New York stock exchange, submitted a 241 page filing with the US Securities and Exchange Commission.

They expect regulatory approval from SEC within 4 months. They’re also expecting approval under the Premier League’s Owners’ and Directors’ Test within eight weeks.

Meanwhile, in NCFC land, the expectation of approval “before the AGM”, which was on the 30 November, has morphed into 12 weeks and counting. 

 

Everything NCFC related seems to take twice as long. Somebody not doing their job properly ??

[GMF 754]

20 minutes ago, Soldier on said:

Everything NCFC related seems to take twice as long. Somebody not doing their job properly ??

No doubt it will someone else’s fault. (Winks)

[TIL 1010 4,760]

1 hour ago, GMF said:

No doubt it will someone else’s fault. (Winks)

Yep indeed as some problems were laid at the door of Ben Kensell the same will happen with the recently departed company secretary as sure as night follows day.

[essex canary 497]

1 hour ago, TIL 1010 said:

Yep indeed as some problems were laid at the door of Ben Kensell the same will happen with the recently departed company secretary as sure as night follows day.

Because the individual heading up the non-football side of the business by their own admission has a career base in the football side. Worse than plugging in a central midfielder at centre half.

Edited December 28, 2023 by essex canary

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,221]

The American Shilan Patel just bought West Bromwich Albion. He said:

 "You look at something like the NFL, Major League Baseball or the NHL, the valuations are quite uniform... and in some cases eye-wateringly high too.

 

"If you find the right club in the right circumstance, the opportunity to alter the standings and the trajectory of a club is much greater in football than in the American leagues."
 

Parma 

[GMF 754]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The American Shilan Patel just bought West Bromwich Albion. He said:

 "You look at something like the NFL, Major League Baseball or the NHL, the valuations are quite uniform... and in some cases eye-wateringly high too.

 

"If you find the right club in the right circumstance, the opportunity to alter the standings and the trajectory of a club is much greater in football than in the American leagues."
 

Parma 

The Premier League’s proposal for a “soft wage cap”, which would accord with UEFA’s proposal, albeit with a higher level of spend, would seem to suggest that the days of PSR are limited.

A cynic would suggest that the US influence is starting to show, and football might be slowly coming to its senses.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

3 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The American Shilan Patel just bought West Bromwich Albion. He said:

 "You look at something like the NFL, Major League Baseball or the NHL, the valuations are quite uniform... and in some cases eye-wateringly high too.

 

"If you find the right club in the right circumstance, the opportunity to alter the standings and the trajectory of a club is much greater in football than in the American leagues."
 

Parma 

How can an American just "buy" an EFL Championship side? Doesn't it take 3 years of convoluted processes and handover periods while the previous owners refuse to just pack up and go home?

[PurpleCanary 5,570]

30 minutes ago, GMF said:

The Premier League’s proposal for a “soft wage cap”, which would accord with UEFA’s proposal, albeit with a higher level of spend, would seem to suggest that the days of PSR are limited.

A cynic would suggest that the US influence is starting to show, and football might be slowly coming to its senses.

Absolutely. Who needs promotion? It only brings relegation misery...🤩

[GMF 754]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Absolutely. Who needs promotion? It only brings relegation misery...🤩

And those pesky parachute payments, so disliked by Rick Parry! 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,221]

7 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The American Shilan Patel just bought West Bromwich Albion. He said:

 "You look at something like the NFL, Major League Baseball or the NHL, the valuations are quite uniform... and in some cases eye-wateringly high too.

 

"If you find the right club in the right circumstance, the opportunity to alter the standings and the trajectory of a club is much greater in football than in the American leagues."
 

Parma 

@nutty nigel once - quite reasonably - asked:

’why would an American Baseball fan buy a championship club in Norwich?’

To paraphrase our friend Shilan here:

’everyone knows the value and potential value of American sports franchises…over here in the uk you find odd anachronistic ownerships and structures…they are not really aware of the strong market in multi-sport franchises that even hedge funds are moving into. It’s a pretty good time to buy, especially as a cheap punt and part of a wider portfolio’

Parma 

Edited March 13 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[GMF 754]

29 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

@nutty nigel once - quite reasonably - asked:

’why would an American Baseball fan buy a championship club in Norwich?’

To paraphrase our friend Shilan here:

’everyone knows the value and potential value of American sports franchises…over here in the uk you find odd anachronistic ownerships and structures…they are not really aware of the strong market in multi-sport franchises that even hedge funds are moving into. It’s a pretty good time to buy, especially as a cheap punt and part of a wider portfolio’

Parma 

Especially in the context of the scope for improved financial regulation in the not too distant future, despite the current kickback from those running the game. Change is coming, whether they want it or not. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,421]

5 hours ago, GMF said:

The Premier League’s proposal for a “soft wage cap”, which would accord with UEFA’s proposal, albeit with a higher level of spend, would seem to suggest that the days of PSR are limited.

Forgive my ignorance, especially if it was mentioned up the thread, but what's PSR?

 

[GMF 754]

5 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Forgive my ignorance, especially if it was mentioned up the thread, but what's PSR?

 

Profitability and sustainability rules. (In old money, financial fair play).  

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,221]

From Paddy:

‘The Milwaukee Brewers principal owner reiterated in a recent interview for his domestic baseball audience there is a potentially ‘lucrative’ end game for his involvement in the ‘soccer’ club.’

Surely not one message for one audience and a different one for another?

…but what about family and food and incredible similarities between Milwaukee and Norwich and Mike and love for the game?

Parma 

Edited March 19 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[GMF 754]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

From Paddy:

‘The Milwaukee Brewers principal owner reiterated in a recent interview for his domestic baseball audience there is a potentially ‘lucrative’ end game for his involvement in the ‘soccer’ club.’

Surely not one message for one audience and a different one for another?

…but what about family and food and incredible similarities between Milwaukee and Norwich and Mike and love for the game?

Parma 

He doesn’t have a reputation for being a flip merchant, but the real upside comes into play after the next acquisition….

[repman 635]

8 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

From Paddy:

‘The Milwaukee Brewers principal owner reiterated in a recent interview for his domestic baseball audience there is a potentially ‘lucrative’ end game for his involvement in the ‘soccer’ club.’

Surely not one message for one audience and a different one for another?

…but what about family and food and incredible similarities between Milwaukee and Norwich and Mike and love for the game?

Parma 

I think Paddy must have been reading the forum, this is straight from the interview I linked when asking @shefcanary a question the other day.

For what it's worth I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where he can cash out big time on the club within the next 10 years (unless things go unprecedentedly well).

[shefcanary 2,426]

If any of his investments is a "flip" surely its the PGA one. LIV will buy them out within this year I'd say.

[shefcanary 2,426]

Paddy mentioned the following during the Pink'Un Q&A this lunchtime:

"Had it confirmed prior to the weekend the EFL checks apply not simply to MA but the other individuals as well within Norfolk Holdings." 

This certainly is a reason why the EFL are struggling to approve the share allotment; as I've said on here before, the lack of EFL resource and the less than transparent way US companies and their shareholding are filed at the moment will be difficult to move quickly on. It certainly explains why the WBA takeover (which ostensibly involved one person only) was given the go ahead so quickly.

I've said before I think the season will be over before he gets the nod. Certainly interesting that news is slipping out of Carrow Road in this way however and they have felt it worth letting media know. 

[GMF 754]

@shefcanary the waiver documents confirmed that Norfolk had various shareholders. They would need to be verified, along with proof of their funding sources, hence the delay. 

[shefcanary 2,426]

2 minutes ago, GMF said:

@shefcanary the waiver documents confirmed that Norfolk had various shareholders. They would need to be verified, along with proof of their funding sources, hence the delay. 

Absolutely, although the 17% were not individually named, and therein lies the problem. The club and Attanasio if they had read the room could have done more by publishing a full biographical history of the 17% - it is normal in other acquisitions I've dealt with.

The club and Attanasio are now paying for it with the delay. Lack of up front disclosure just makes the arbitrators of corporate dealings jumpy. "What are they trying to hide"? Much better for all (including us "interested" supporters) to come clean with everything up front in the public documents. Again, another faux pas by the club and its advisers I'm afraid.

[GMF 754]

3 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Absolutely, although the 17% were not individually named, and therein lies the problem. The club and Attanasio if they had read the room could have done more by publishing a full biographical history of the 17% - it is normal in other acquisitions I've dealt with.

The club and Attanasio are now paying for it with the delay. Lack of up front disclosure just makes the arbitrators of corporate dealings jumpy. "What are they trying to hide"? Much better for all (including us "interested" supporters) to come clean with everything up front in the public documents. Again, another faux pas by the club and its advisers I'm afraid.

To be fair, I suspect that the levels of disclosure to the EFL would have been far more detailed than required by the waiver documentation, but the lack of transparency certainly doesn’t make it any easier.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,221]

3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Absolutely, although the 17% were not individually named, and therein lies the problem. The club and Attanasio if they had read the room could have done more by publishing a full biographical history of the 17% - it is normal in other acquisitions I've dealt with.

The club and Attanasio are now paying for it with the delay. Lack of up front disclosure just makes the arbitrators of corporate dealings jumpy. "What are they trying to hide"? Much better for all (including us "interested" supporters) to come clean with everything up front in the public documents. Again, another faux pas by the club and its advisers I'm afraid.

Assuming the advisors have had the information made available to them. 

Or indeed that further entities - with greater interest or lesser opacity - are not part of the 17%.

Parma 

[PurpleCanary 5,570]

On 15/03/2024 at 18:38, repman said:

I think Paddy must have been reading the forum, this is straight from the interview I linked when asking @shefcanary a question the other day.

For what it's worth I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where he can cash out big time on the club within the next 10 years (unless things go unprecedentedly well).

I am not sure that was always the case with Attanasiogate, but perhaps it became apparent that some posters here, particularly in terms of the debt/interest etc, were very knowledgeable, and so notice was taken.

I made the point before that another key Attanasiogate discussion here has been about corporate governance, or arguably the lack of, but I had never seen any mention of what might have seemed an abstruse subject in the pink un until Southwell, quite correctly, raised the question at the AGM. 

[chicken 2,636]

On 18/03/2024 at 14:23, shefcanary said:

Paddy mentioned the following during the Pink'Un Q&A this lunchtime:

"Had it confirmed prior to the weekend the EFL checks apply not simply to MA but the other individuals as well within Norfolk Holdings." 

This certainly is a reason why the EFL are struggling to approve the share allotment; as I've said on here before, the lack of EFL resource and the less than transparent way US companies and their shareholding are filed at the moment will be difficult to move quickly on. It certainly explains why the WBA takeover (which ostensibly involved one person only) was given the go ahead so quickly.

I've said before I think the season will be over before he gets the nod. Certainly interesting that news is slipping out of Carrow Road in this way however and they have felt it worth letting media know. 

A question if I may, as you, GMF, Purple and others are far more qualified with much greater understanding than me of such things...

This three year period of "handover" as it has been called. Could the potential reasoning for that be because they knew it could take some time for the approval process to go through, and potentially, for the EFL to say there were too many people involved and it would need to be rejigged?

Seems too handy for any other reason really. Sure, it's a nice way of transitioning, but we know that within the club MA and Norfolk Holdings are seen as being involved at every level now.

[essex canary 497]

More stunning amateurishness.

[shefcanary 2,426]

12 minutes ago, chicken said:

A question if I may, as you, GMF, Purple and others are far more qualified with much greater understanding than me of such things...

This three year period of "handover" as it has been called. Could the potential reasoning for that be because they knew it could take some time for the approval process to go through, and potentially, for the EFL to say there were too many people involved and it would need to be rejigged?

Seems too handy for any other reason really. Sure, it's a nice way of transitioning, but we know that within the club MA and Norfolk Holdings are seen as being involved at every level now.

I accept in Norwich's case there are a great number of complications; the nature of the share allotment, the joint majority shareholding it creates, the nature of the concordat, the waiver from existing shareholders independent of the deal, just who are the 17%, the convoluted structure of Norfolk Holdings, before you even consider Attanasio and all his myriad of investments in other sporting organisations (remember his investment in the PGA was done after the Special GM as well). Was this known by all parties back when the concordat was signed? I doubt it, Attanasio for instance personally made a line of credit available to the club without any reference to the future investment vehicle Norfolk Holdings. I am sure if that was in place he would have made that line of credit available directly via Norfolk Holdings.

Another reason is the public expectation from the club of the deal being sanctioned by the EFL prior to the normal AGM in late November at that Special GM? A timescale of only 2 months - the two periods are so far apart. Why make a public statement of that kind when there was a known acceptance it might take the best part of three years - that is frankly duplicitous?

Also if there was an expectation of it taking that long to get approval, that is across three seasons of football! Who in their right mind would enter a deal like this with the knowledge that your team could potentially be two or three leagues lower!

Additionally Purple has heard from his "insider" that the EFL have had to request a lot more detail of the deal after the Special GM. If you are to link the concordat with the holding back of evidence from the EFL to draw things out (which I am sure is not what you were hypothesising but is a natural conclusion one could now draw) that is quite another stretch. 

Further, we have seen that when the transaction is relatively straightforward, like with West Brom for instance where one person personally acquired a shareholding from another one person, the EFL approval can be given in less than a month.

But, with other transactions the EFL are now taking things much more seriously than they had up to this season. Back in January 2023, the EFL had yet to tighten up their processes on Directors and Owners approvals. Takeovers were still being allowed last season with a relative nod through.  

In conclusion, I don't think the period of the concordat is linked to the EFL approval. I'm going to put myself on the line and here and state the concordat, which was entered into some 8 months before the Special GM that approved the waiver to enable Attanasio's share allotment, was indeed to allow a period of grace whilst all parties got used to each other. I am taking the statements included in the allotment waiver circular at face value.

[PurpleCanary 5,570]

40 minutes ago, chicken said:

A question if I may, as you, GMF, Purple and others are far more qualified with much greater understanding than me of such things...

This three year period of "handover" as it has been called. Could the potential reasoning for that be because they knew it could take some time for the approval process to go through, and potentially, for the EFL to say there were too many people involved and it would need to be rejigged?

Seems too handy for any other reason really. Sure, it's a nice way of transitioning, but we know that within the club MA and Norfolk Holdings are seen as being involved at every level now.

I don't know. But given how the club struggled (and that is a polite word) with its first ever serious dealings with the Takeover Code and Takeover Panel, it would not at all surprise me if the club has equally been flummoxed by or at least unprepared for its first ever dealings with the EFL's fit and proper ownership test.

Edited March 19 by PurpleCanary