Shakespeare mic'ed up/ Pressing

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,261]

So we've seen C.Shakespeare mic'ed up and it including Smith's post match assessments from last year it seems like we're moving towards a more pressing style of football. 

Right so there are a few options for a newly promoted team in the PL. You can play long ball and set pieces like Burnley or Stoke, you can go counter attacking like Watford and Palace or you can go pressing like Southampton and Huddersfield (Under Wagner). It seems from that video we're going for pressing which is great, if we go up it will give us so much of a better chance than the possession style under Farke for which we just don't have the players and never will with our budget. But we have some issues to address in the right here and now.

Firstly a high counter pressing style generally suits a team that is inferior and will often lose the ball. As one of the better teams in this league we'd be better of trying to keep possession and trying to find that killer pass to break down teams. However, If we're going to try and get the ball forward quickly we'll often lose it so a counter press will be ideal. What this means though is that we're planning on knocking the ball forward quickly without much patience or thought, it won't be good to watch and on occasions where it's just not going for us on the night it might be a bit dire. So while this tactic could work well in the PL it might not be the best to try to escape the Championship with.

Secondly we don't really have the players for it right now. While Pukki/Dowell/Rashica etc may press and can be coached to press in the right areas the opposition will know that they can't tackle and may be able to easily dribble around them which will leave us exposed when they break our press. I thought going into this summer that Smith would have a budget to bring in a  few players to make his style work but it seems like he's going to have to work with the players he's got and I don't think we have the players to play this way. 

Thirdly our main striker will be Pukki and it would be unreasonable to expect him to chase the opposition for 90 minutes for 50+ games this season, especially when he knows his back up may also press in the right areas but be beaten in 1 v 1's and he'll be wasting his energy for nothing. If we're going into this season trying to play a pressing game I worry about him and think he'll either run out of energy or revert to being disinterested and we'll end up with a problem. 

Personally I'd love to support a Norwich team playing aggressive, high pressing football in the PL because I think if we have the right players for it, it would work and it would really be something the crowd could get behind because above all else as a crowd I think we're happiest with a team who sweat and give their all for the shirt. We love full blooded tackles and closing down just as much if not more than pretty patterns of play. But I think looking at our team if we can't make a lot of additions that we'd be better suited to playing possession focused football this year then adapting to play on the counter if we go up. What do you guys think?

[Pyro Pete 2,354]

29 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

So we've seen C.Shakespeare mic'ed up and it including Smith's post match assessments from last year it seems like we're moving towards a more pressing style of football. 

Right so there are a few options for a newly promoted team in the PL. You can play long ball and set pieces like Burnley or Stoke, you can go counter attacking like Watford and Palace or you can go pressing like Southampton and Huddersfield (Under Wagner). It seems from that video we're going for pressing which is great, if we go up it will give us so much of a better chance than the possession style under Farke for which we just don't have the players and never will with our budget. But we have some issues to address in the right here and now.

Firstly a high counter pressing style generally suits a team that is inferior and will often lose the ball. As one of the better teams in this league we'd be better of trying to keep possession and trying to find that killer pass to break down teams. However, If we're going to try and get the ball forward quickly we'll often lose it so a counter press will be ideal. What this means though is that we're planning on knocking the ball forward quickly without much patience or thought, it won't be good to watch and on occasions where it's just not going for us on the night it might be a bit dire. So while this tactic could work well in the PL it might not be the best to try to escape the Championship with.

Secondly we don't really have the players for it right now. While Pukki/Dowell/Rashica etc may press and can be coached to press in the right areas the opposition will know that they can't tackle and may be able to easily dribble around them which will leave us exposed when they break our press. I thought going into this summer that Smith would have a budget to bring in a  few players to make his style work but it seems like he's going to have to work with the players he's got and I don't think we have the players to play this way. 

Thirdly our main striker will be Pukki and it would be unreasonable to expect him to chase the opposition for 90 minutes for 50+ games this season, especially when he knows his back up may also press in the right areas but be beaten in 1 v 1's and he'll be wasting his energy for nothing. If we're going into this season trying to play a pressing game I worry about him and think he'll either run out of energy or revert to being disinterested and we'll end up with a problem. 

Personally I'd love to support a Norwich team playing aggressive, high pressing football in the PL because I think if we have the right players for it, it would work and it would really be something the crowd could get behind because above all else as a crowd I think we're happiest with a team who sweat and give their all for the shirt. We love full blooded tackles and closing down just as much if not more than pretty patterns of play. But I think looking at our team if we can't make a lot of additions that we'd be better suited to playing possession focused football this year then adapting to play on the counter if we go up. What do you guys think?

I think I enjoyed reading your post. Well argued.

I agree we would need changes to the midfield personnel to implement the kind of pressing game Smith probably wants.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,629]

43 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Firstly a high counter pressing style generally suits a team that is inferior and will often lose the ball. As one of the better teams in this league we'd be better of trying to keep possession and trying to find that killer pass to break down teams. However, If we're going to try and get the ball forward quickly we'll often lose it so a counter press will be ideal. What this means though is that we're planning on knocking the ball forward quickly without much patience or thought, it won't be good to watch and on occasions where it's just not going for us on the night it might be a bit dire. So while this tactic could work well in the PL it might not be the best to try to escape the Championship with.

Whilst I agree with most of your post, I completely disagree with this part. Two of the coaches most famous for the counter press are Guardiola and Klopp, who coach two of the best teams in the world, and certainly don't play direct football. 

The counter press is generally employed by teams who dominate possession.

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

I read that title as ‘Minced Pied Up’ I wouldn’t blame him either as I love em. 

[littleyellowbirdie 3,143]

1 hour ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

So we've seen C.Shakespeare mic'ed up and it including Smith's post match assessments from last year it seems like we're moving towards a more pressing style of football. 

Right so there are a few options for a newly promoted team in the PL. You can play long ball and set pieces like Burnley or Stoke, you can go counter attacking like Watford and Palace or you can go pressing like Southampton and Huddersfield (Under Wagner). It seems from that video we're going for pressing which is great, if we go up it will give us so much of a better chance than the possession style under Farke for which we just don't have the players and never will with our budget. But we have some issues to address in the right here and now.

Firstly a high counter pressing style generally suits a team that is inferior and will often lose the ball. As one of the better teams in this league we'd be better of trying to keep possession and trying to find that killer pass to break down teams. However, If we're going to try and get the ball forward quickly we'll often lose it so a counter press will be ideal. What this means though is that we're planning on knocking the ball forward quickly without much patience or thought, it won't be good to watch and on occasions where it's just not going for us on the night it might be a bit dire. So while this tactic could work well in the PL it might not be the best to try to escape the Championship with.

Secondly we don't really have the players for it right now. While Pukki/Dowell/Rashica etc may press and can be coached to press in the right areas the opposition will know that they can't tackle and may be able to easily dribble around them which will leave us exposed when they break our press. I thought going into this summer that Smith would have a budget to bring in a  few players to make his style work but it seems like he's going to have to work with the players he's got and I don't think we have the players to play this way. 

Thirdly our main striker will be Pukki and it would be unreasonable to expect him to chase the opposition for 90 minutes for 50+ games this season, especially when he knows his back up may also press in the right areas but be beaten in 1 v 1's and he'll be wasting his energy for nothing. If we're going into this season trying to play a pressing game I worry about him and think he'll either run out of energy or revert to being disinterested and we'll end up with a problem. 

Personally I'd love to support a Norwich team playing aggressive, high pressing football in the PL because I think if we have the right players for it, it would work and it would really be something the crowd could get behind because above all else as a crowd I think we're happiest with a team who sweat and give their all for the shirt. We love full blooded tackles and closing down just as much if not more than pretty patterns of play. But I think looking at our team if we can't make a lot of additions that we'd be better suited to playing possession focused football this year then adapting to play on the counter if we go up. What do you guys think?

I'm going to read this again when I'm sober, but it seems to make a lot of sense. 

[Yobocop 1,444]

20 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm going to read this again when I'm sober, but it seems to make a lot of sense. 

You’re going to be disappointed 

[vlad666 207]

I think pressing is a mixture of mindset and attributes. Someone like Rashica has the attributes to press effectively but didn’t do it for whatever reason. On the other hand you have McLean who often tries to press but his lack of speed/mobility makes it quite ineffective. Can you be taught to press more efficiently if your body doesn’t allow it? I’m not so sure.
One of the biggest reasons why we don’t compete at premier league level, I believe, is because we lack the players needed to do this effectively. 

[SwearyCanary 1,340]

I actually think in some ways we have a squad that has the tools for a similar set up to Leicester under Shakey and Ranieri. Pukki is our Vardy and Idah or Sargeant can play the Okazaki role. Hayden for Kante and although I can’t be at all sure, Sara for the Drinkwater role. Albrighton in the left where we are a handful of options that could work but I see the sticking point as who plays the Mahrez role. Not sure Dowell or Cantwell have enough to do it but at this level maybe? 
Falls down a little bit defensively in terms of our LB and RB, but I confess to only superficially knowing how Fuchs and Simpson operated and whether our RB and LB would work there. 
it’s a working theory but a bit of a lopsided 4-3-3 with the Mahrez role just behind the two forwards? 

Might be utter tosh but I just feel our recruitment and strengths look a little similar in a championship sense 

[hepphep 175]

7 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Firstly a high counter pressing style generally suits a team that is inferior and will often lose the ball. As one of the better teams in this league we'd be better of trying to keep possession and trying to find that killer pass to break down teams. However, If we're going to try and get the ball forward quickly we'll often lose it so a counter press will be ideal. What this means though is that we're planning on knocking the ball forward quickly without much patience or thought, it won't be good to watch and on occasions where it's just not going for us on the night it might be a bit dire. So while this tactic could work well in the PL it might not be the best to try to escape the Championship with.

 

I have to disagree to some extent. Counter-pressing is only one part of the game plan and it really doesn't dictate how we build up from our own end. It actually quite often means that we want to have more possession, as it aims to win the ball back before opponent gains any possession.  Someone mentioned Klopp and Guardiola using it and especially Klopp's Liverpool has been doing it extremely well. 

What it does add to the game is that it provides us chances for quick transitions and winning ball high on the field. If done well, that does mean that we are spending less time passing on our own end, but not that we give away possession as we will have the possession on the attacking end of the field.

If implemented well, what does that mean compared to Farkeball?

1) Less back and forth passing on our own end. This is something I'm happy, because we have been very risky on this and haven't had enough ball playing ability in our central defense and in middle of the park to handle this. We have managed this on championship on decent level though, but on EPL it has been disaster.

2) More possession up the field. Involves forward players more to the game and to participate more into playmaking. Also, helps us bring up offensive fullbacks or wingbacks. We have not been extremely good at this earlier, as our offensive players have not been very creative either. So, we would likely need improvement there. Of course, if we are taking more advantage of offensive fullbacks, Giannoulis and Aarons could become assets that could be used to overnumber opponents there. Then we could have players like Dowell and hopefully Cantwell, maybe Rowe, who could cut inside from winger position and provide playmaking more centrally. This part of game is interesting one to see how it builds up.

3) Winning more balls up the field instead of on our own end. Makes us less vulnerable to opponent's counter pressing as places we would lose the ball are higher on the field. This also provides possibilities for creating quickly created chances through transition where opponent is still unorganized. These are something that would likely be perfect for Pukki's movement.

However, there are also things how it could go wrong..
It needs extremely fit players with lots of energy. It also needs players to know their duty extremely well and everyone to do their job while pressing. In addition you need forward players who are comfortable with ball and fullbacks that are offensive minded. If not that, we can end up like bunch of headless chickens chasing the ball.

 

[hogesar 10,779]

8 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Whilst I agree with most of your post, I completely disagree with this part. Two of the coaches most famous for the counter press are Guardiola and Klopp, who coach two of the best teams in the world, and certainly don't play direct football. 

The counter press is generally employed by teams who dominate possession.

Yes, although arguably there are two different styles to deploying counter-pressing. In the championship, dominating possession, where would we be most likely to lose the ball? In theory, the final third as we can dominate teams - counter-pressing in their final third can be hugely effective.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,629]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Yes, although arguably there are two different styles to deploying counter-pressing. In the championship, dominating possession, where would we be most likely to lose the ball? In theory, the final third as we can dominate teams - counter-pressing in their final third can be hugely effective.

I'd say there's really only one way to employ counter pressing, and that's the way you describe it there!

Counter pressing is generally a tactic that bigger teams use against weaker opponents, who are often tired anyway by chasing the ball for long periods, and aims to win the ball back as soon as possible by aggressively pressing the opponent as soon as possession changes hands.

Smaller teams don't tend to use it against better opponents; instead they're more likely to sit deep, maintain their shape and maybe play on the counter. Employing a counter press would see get them get picked off and played through too easily as the players vacate their designated position.

So yeah, it certainly makes sense for us to adopt a counter pressing tactic this season. The only reservation would be whether Pukki has the legs for it at 32 in such a compact season.

[hogesar 10,779]

16 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I'd say there's really only one way to employ counter pressing, and that's the way you describe it there!

Counter pressing is generally a tactic that bigger teams use against weaker opponents, who are often tired anyway by chasing the ball for long periods, and aims to win the ball back as soon as possible by aggressively pressing the opponent as soon as possession changes hands.

Smaller teams don't tend to use it against better opponents; instead they're more likely to sit deep, maintain their shape and maybe play on the counter. Employing a counter press would see get them get picked off and played through too easily as the players vacate their designated position.

So yeah, it certainly makes sense for us to adopt a counter pressing tactic this season. The only reservation would be whether Pukki has the legs for it at 32 in such a compact season.

Yeah fair, I'm not really distinguishing betwen pressing and counter-pressing.

Pukki  may not be up for it for 90 minutes every game but we should be able to rotate him, even if its 65 - 70 minute subs, in the championship.

[Nuff Said 5,973]

9 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I read that title as ‘Minced Pied Up’ I wouldn’t blame him either as I love em. 

Seasonal 😉

[Segura 100]

Loved watching that video, a great insight into what really goes on in 'traynun' and reminded me how little I actually understand about football

[shefcanary 2,956]

4 hours ago, vlad666 said:

On the other hand you have McLean who often tries to press but his lack of speed/mobility makes it quite ineffective. 

Totally agree with this - he is often out of position as well. Let's hope Craig gives him a lot of individual tuition this summer, but is it too late.

[shefcanary 2,956]

3 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

I actually think in some ways we have a squad that has the tools for a similar set up to Leicester under Shakey and Ranieri.

Yes, I always see this summer as interesting to see how strong Shakey's influence is.  Will it make redundant some of the arguments in other threads about Deano's past management?