Gabriel Sara

[ron obvious 1,517]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

You could ask that question about most signings. You've already mentioned Buendia and Pukki - we also took the risk on Maddison ahead of others - we signed Lewis, Godfrey and Aarons to the academy when Premier League clubs could have done the same, heck we went for Dean Ashton from Crewe ahead of others if we'd like to go further back, or Huckerby  - It might not be that other clubs have missed anything per say, but that a £12 million investment on a 23 year old doesn't make sense to a Premier League club because those interested will be those trying to stay up and might feel the money better spent on 'proven' PL ability as opposed to potential. Other championship clubs likely don't have the financial ability in the first place.

Precisely this. We're in a position where we have to take a bigger risk than richer clubs. So long as we don't gamble beyond our means ("remember, always gamble responsibly!" 🙂) then that's our best hope.

[horsefly 4,325]

27 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Do you agree that another Government in the future could reverse these requirements and make if feasible to buy players from say German second tier again? It's in their control.

Not if it's a Tory government. They'll all end up playing in Rwanda.

[PurpleCanary 5,601]

38 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Do you agree that another Government in the future could reverse these requirements and make if feasible to buy players from say German second tier again? It's in their control.

Of course. Brexit was only a vote to end membership of the EU. It did not stipulate what kind of Brexit, with the options ranging from the very soft - doing a Norway and in effect staying in the single market - and through various permutations to the very hard - leaving the single market and not going into a customs' union, and prioritising control of borders and immigration.

For good or ill the Johnson government chose the last  and hardest option. And the post-Brexit football rules were created in that context. It would have been politically impossible to have tough immigration/work permit rules for vital jobs but lax rules for footballers.

But if a new government - Tory or Labour/LibDem - wanted to move towards a softer Brexit, with less tough immigration/work permit rules generally then the rules for football could and probably would be eased.

In the long run I suspect the UK will end up back with freedom of movement, at least for all workers as opposed to for all people, as it was before. Then football will also be back where it was.

[Indy 3,343]

28 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Not if it's a Tory government. They'll all end up playing in Rwanda.

Could be worse, could be Ip****,  Poormans Road!

[hertfordyellow 460]

14 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Of course. Brexit was only a vote to end membership of the EU. It did not stipulate what kind of Brexit, with the options ranging from the very soft - doing a Norway and in effect staying in the single market - and through various permutations to the very hard - leaving the single market and not going into a customs' union, and prioritising control of borders and immigration.

For good or ill the Johnson government chose the last  and hardest option. And the post-Brexit football rules were created in that context. It would have been politically impossible to have tough immigration/work permit rules for vital jobs but lax rules for footballers.

But if a new government - Tory or Labour/LibDem - wanted to move towards a softer Brexit, with less tough immigration/work permit rules generally then the rules for football could and probably would be eased.

In the long run I suspect the UK will end up back with freedom of movement, at least for all workers as opposed to for all people, as it was before. Then football will also be back where it was.

It's not about soft Brexit or hard Brexit, i'm talking about changes to football specific visa rules. Most players in the German second division would qualify for current work permit if they weren't footballers. It's mostly based around skill (high), wage (relatively high) and job offer (contract agreed). The extra legislation is for Football in particular to promote academy participation. A Labour government could remove those added barriers and keep the current general visa parameters exactly the same and it would mean those previous markets are opened up again. You don't need FOM to buy from the German second division. 

Football could be added occupation code. 

https://www.gov.uk/skilled-worker-visa/your-job

or you could even tweak this.

https://www.gov.uk/sportsperson-visa

Edited July 11, 2022 by hertfordyellow

[horsefly 4,325]

53 minutes ago, Indy said:

Could be worse, could be Ip****,  Poormans Road!

Careful, you'll be giving Patel ideas.

[Indy 3,343]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Careful, you'll be giving Patel ideas.

Now even she can’t be that cruel!

[PurpleCanary 5,601]

2 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

It's not about soft Brexit or hard Brexit, i'm talking about changes to football specific visa rules. Most players in the German second division would qualify for current work permit if they weren't footballers. It's mostly based around skill (high), wage (relatively high) and job offer (contract agreed). The extra legislation is for Football in particular to promote academy participation. A Labour government could remove those added barriers and keep the current general visa parameters exactly the same and it would mean those previous markets are opened up again. You don't need FOM to buy from the German second division. 

Football could be added occupation code. 

https://www.gov.uk/skilled-worker-visa/your-job

or you could even tweak this.

https://www.gov.uk/sportsperson-visa

I doubt many Bundesliga 2 players would qualify for a work permit if they weren't footballers because they probably would be in low-wage and low-skill jobs! But to be more serious, this is from that latter link you provided:

"You can apply for an International Sportsperson visa if all of the following apply: you’re an elite sportsperson or qualified coach, who’s recognised by your sport’s governing body as being at the highest level of your profession INTERNATIONALLY [my emphasis)."
 

That is the rule for all sportspeople and if applied to football specifically would rule out probably every player in the Bundesliga 2, unless Messi or Ronaldo or Ibrahimovic decided to slum it there. I agree that to an extent football made the post-Brexit rules tougher than they are for other sports, to encourage home-grown players.

But based on that criterion given above it simply isn't true, as you claim it is, that the problem is with football-specific rules initiated by the football authorities and that if football had just copied out the rules for sport generally then clubs could have gone on picking up players from all over, as we used to do, and certainly including the Bundesliga 2.

When you look at the football rules, with the points system and the very short list of leagues that qualify for high points, it adds up to a system that aims to replicate the rules for sport generally by roughly limiting English clubs to acquiring players at or near to "the highest level of the profession internationally."

Edited July 11, 2022 by PurpleCanary

[chicken 2,680]

I said at the time, you could not fully support Brexit AND how football was then. It was inevitable that it would change as a result.

[canarybubbles 1,953]

32 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I doubt many Bundesliga 2 players would qualify for a work permit if they weren't footballers because they probably would be in low-wage and low-skill jobs! But to be more serious, this is from that latter link you provided:

"You can apply for an International Sportsperson visa if all of the following apply: you’re an elite sportsperson or qualified coach, who’s recognised by your sport’s governing body as being at the highest level of your profession INTERNATIONALLY [my emphasis)."
 

That is the rule for all sportspeople and if applied to football specifically would rule out probably every player in the Bundesliga 2, unless Messi or Ronaldo or Ibrahimovic decided to slum it there. I agree that to an extent football made the post-Brexit rules tougher than they are for other sports, to encourage home-grown players.

But based on that criterion given above it simply isn't true, as you claim it is, that the problem is with football-specific rules initiated by the football authorities and that if football had just copied out the rules for sport generally then clubs could have gone on picking up players from all over, as we used to do, and certainly including the Bundesliga 2.

When you look at the football rules, with the points system and the very short list of leagues that qualify for high points, it adds up to a system that aims to replicate the rules for sport generally by roughly limiting English clubs to acquiring players at or near to "the highest level of the profession internationally."

Like everything to do with Brexit, it limits freedoms for the vast majority but has no significant effect on the very rich. Just as a multi-millionaire can buy a golden visa somewhere and get his/her FOM back, the rich clubs can get the players they want. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

45 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I doubt many Bundesliga 2 players would qualify for a work permit if they weren't footballers because they probably would be in low-wage and low-skill jobs! But to be more serious, this is from that latter link you provided:

"You can apply for an International Sportsperson visa if all of the following apply: you’re an elite sportsperson or qualified coach, who’s recognised by your sport’s governing body as being at the highest level of your profession INTERNATIONALLY [my emphasis)."
 

That is the rule for all sportspeople and if applied to football specifically would rule out probably every player in the Bundesliga 2, unless Messi or Ronaldo or Ibrahimovic decided to slum it there. I agree that to an extent football made the post-Brexit rules tougher than they are for other sports, to encourage home-grown players.

But based on that criterion given above it simply isn't true, as you claim it is, that the problem is with football-specific rules initiated by the football authorities and that if football had just copied out the rules for sport generally then clubs could have gone on picking up players from all over, as we used to do, and certainly including the Bundesliga 2.

When you look at the football rules, with the points system and the very short list of leagues that qualify for high points, it adds up to a system that aims to replicate the rules for sport generally by roughly limiting English clubs to acquiring players at or near to "the highest level of the profession internationally."

Ok. Who sets the above quoted criteria that you put in red? Who set the points system criteria based on international representation? I think you are looking through the wrong end of the lens on this one.

[hertfordyellow 460]

22 minutes ago, chicken said:

I said at the time, you could not fully support Brexit AND how football was then. It was inevitable that it would change as a result.

A lot of people don’t like how football was / is. Not sure it was high up on peoples minds tbh.

Edited July 11, 2022 by hertfordyellow

[chicken 2,680]

16 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

A lot of people don’t like how football was / is. Not sure it was high up on peoples minds tbh.

Same people in charge then, same people in charge now. No change. Get the picture?

And actually, in regards to Norwich City FC, people were loving it. "All the Germans" etc. That's when I said it. A vote for Brexit was to wish that experience away. And I was right. So many of those players would never have come under the current rules.

And sure, those rules can change. But purple is right - people first of all chose to vote for Brexit, then, at the last general election they got to vote for whether they wanted a hard, jingoistic, nationalistic, hard right, hard Brexit and that's what folks chose.

You can bang on about all kinds of "woulda, shoulda, coulda" but that's what we have right now and those are the constraints the club are working under.

People literally voted to make it harder for clubs like ours.

It may well not have been top of their agenda, but that's what has happened. Now you can try to throw another straw man at it if you want. But all that has been stated is the lie of the land. If you don't like it, the next chance to change it is either, possibly now depending upon the final two candidates and if you are a Conservative party member and get a vote in the leadership OR wait until the next election.

I say that, because the third option, to lobby parliament, would require wads of cash, expensive wallpaper and someone corrupt enough to then take it further than it would otherwise get.

Literally no point in whinging about "it can be changed, it can be changed" when we are talking about this transfer window, and the next, and in all likelihood a good couple of years yet if not more. So yeah, argument lost a loooong time ago. 

[Google Bot 3,387]

20 minutes ago, chicken said:

And actually, in regards to Norwich City FC, people were loving it. "All the Germans" etc. That's when I said it. A vote for Brexit was to wish that experience away. And I was right. So many of those players would never have come under the current rules.

Do you mind taking this chat elsewhere please?  If not I'll create a new thread for Gabriel Sara updates as I have zero desire to read any of the government/parliamentary crap above. 

Thanks!

[hertfordyellow 460]

20 minutes ago, chicken said:

Same people in charge then, same people in charge now. No change. Get the picture?

And actually, in regards to Norwich City FC, people were loving it. "All the Germans" etc. That's when I said it. A vote for Brexit was to wish that experience away. And I was right. So many of those players would never have come under the current rules.

And sure, those rules can change. But purple is right - people first of all chose to vote for Brexit, then, at the last general election they got to vote for whether they wanted a hard, jingoistic, nationalistic, hard right, hard Brexit and that's what folks chose.

You can bang on about all kinds of "woulda, shoulda, coulda" but that's what we have right now and those are the constraints the club are working under.

People literally voted to make it harder for clubs like ours.

It may well not have been top of their agenda, but that's what has happened. Now you can try to throw another straw man at it if you want. But all that has been stated is the lie of the land. If you don't like it, the next chance to change it is either, possibly now depending upon the final two candidates and if you are a Conservative party member and get a vote in the leadership OR wait until the next election.

I say that, because the third option, to lobby parliament, would require wads of cash, expensive wallpaper and someone corrupt enough to then take it further than it would otherwise get.

Literally no point in whinging about "it can be changed, it can be changed" when we are talking about this transfer window, and the next, and in all likelihood a good couple of years yet if not more. So yeah, argument lost a loooong time ago. 

I’m not whinging at all. I’m relatively agnostic about the whole thing. I understand you have got emotional about this subject, but I’m purely pointing out the general misunderstanding on the situation. I can see reasons why the rigid system was implemented. Probably too rigid but I get the point of it.

[hertfordyellow 460]

4 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Do you mind taking this chat elsewhere please?  If not I'll create a new thread for Gabriel Sara updates as I have zero desire to read any of the government/parliamentary crap above. 

Thanks!

Yeah it started off as relevant to why we were fishing in Brazilian markets and some have hijacked it to have a lip wobble unfortunately.

[Google Bot 3,387]

6 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Yeah it started off as relevant to why we were fishing in Brazilian markets and some have hijacked it to have a lip wobble unfortunately.

I just created a new thread anyway, thought it was a good time to just have a review of what's going on:

 

[chicken 2,680]

8 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Yeah it started off as relevant to why we were fishing in Brazilian markets and some have hijacked it to have a lip wobble unfortunately.

At least you admitted to having a lip wobble then.

Considering someone simply pointed out the change in rules, you went off the deep end about it not being about something.

Then your bot friend wobbled even bigger and had to start a new thread...

Biggest pair of snowflakes on the forum right now tbh. 

[chicken 2,680]

Someone decided they had ownership of this thread and wanted to take the attention and ownership for themselves. Just in case you felt you were missing out, and just wanted to get back on track, this is what he said there:

Quote

The other thread was full of political/brexit junk, so creating a new thread.

Gabriel Sara, 23 Year old Brazilian Midfielder

What we know:

1. Sao Paulo wanting to improve their financial situation, looking at generating 25m via player sales 
2. FC Dallas & West Brom both showing interest in the player.  FC Dallas previously had $10m bid turned down in Jan 2022
3. Agreement for £11.5m is in place (Which would be new club record)
4. Agreement also includes a 10% sell-on clause if sold for a profit
5. Webber flew out in person to get the deal "over the line"

What we don't know / Was debating:

1. How the deal is structured.  i.e. How much we pay up front.
2. How will he adapt to British football?
3. What's the state of his Ankle injury?  Sao Paulo fans appear to have low trust in their own medical team.
4. How does he fit into Smith's plans? Is he Attacking Mid, Central Mid, Box-to-box etc. 

Latest Articles:

The Mirror | Webber flies to Brazil to clinch record deal (July 10th 17:47)

EDP | Gabriel Sara: The inside track (July 11th 14:44)

 

I'll try and keep this updated

I would say that we still don't know the agreement is for £11.5m. There are still some rumours suggesting a loan with a view to a permanent - though I think we all accept that is unlikely considering Sao Paulo's position in needing cash. One report had 11.5m euros.

As we found last summer, some lazy journalism simply switched the Euro sign for a £ sign. Hence some people think we paid more than £9m for Sargent when it was more like £8m.

What is widely confirmed is that it is a club record fee which is the £9m-ish paid for Tzolis. 

[PurpleCanary 5,601]

22 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I am sure every body is thrilled to be getting a Brazilian at Norwich for £11m…

…however I have a penchant for biomechanics - and thus intrinsic player movements - and cannot help but notice that Sara is a rather Un-fluid mover. He is a little head-down and a charger, rather than a head up sprayer or picker. 

He has decent heading technique, is strong and physical, though - not unlike what one does (and indeed may) see in politics - people often crave and oscillate away from what they have just known to a distinctly different, the photo negative of what the previous was missing.

Superficially Sara does not look like a player that Farke would choose. 

We needed Hayden or a very similar other. Sara appears a charging, strong, physical run-around. This is great for a team defending and inferior at the top level for a weak side (as is Sargent to some degree), though it is less beneficial when trying to be better and fluid and coming out of shape to attack at a lower level. 

Technically Sara looks a little clumsy for a stereotypical Brazilian. He likes a shot and is a robust player, good in the air, though also not a particularly clean ball striker (as Brazilians often are). 

Very early days - and I shall be delighted to be wrong - though he looks rather Un-Brazilian, which may have been a good meal ticket in Brazil.   
 

There is a quite a lot of change, so quite a lot of risk here - for a strong running, robust player who is decent in the air - not obviously unfindable characteristics closer to home for less risk. 

Limited footage, so could quite easily be very wrong. 

Parma 

To take the thread back to pure football, unsullied by low politics, the pink un has a long interview with a Brazilian journalist, talking about the kind of player Sara is.I don’t know whether it answers or adds to some of the points Parma made here.

[Monty13 2,275]

We have a thread talking about the club potentially buying a Brazilian footballer for a club record fee and while in the Championship no less…and it’s descended into an argument of   why Brexit was bad.

Things are changing and the playing field is changing in such a way that things that were once possible are not and things that were once impossible no longer are. 

In purely football terms it’s way too early to decide what’s happened is bad. 

[chicken 2,680]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

We have a thread talking about the club potentially buying a Brazilian footballer for a club record fee and while in the Championship no less…and it’s descended into an argument of   why Brexit was bad.

Things are changing and the playing field is changing in such a way that things that were once possible are not and things that were once impossible no longer are. 

In purely football terms it’s way too early to decide what’s happened is bad. 

No one said anything was "bad". 

I believe it started with people explaining why we are paying what some are suggesting is an absurd fee for a player from a Brazilian club and not buying from England etc. Then when people said why, they got wobbly when Brexit was mentioned.

Anyway, back on subject, I am pretty sure people have asked why we couldn't pick up a few decent players from South America in the past, now we are, so, win? 🤔

 

[Monty13 2,275]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

No one said anything was "bad". 

Good to know you and others are completely indifferent about brexit, I must have been completely misreading the undertone of some of the posts, silly of me.

[chicken 2,680]

7 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Good to know you and others are completely indifferent about brexit, I must have been completely misreading the undertone of some of the posts, silly of me.

In fairness, we are now trying to keep this on topic and NOT about Brexit.

I will say, as I have already, Purple didn't say anything was bad, just that the post Brexit points system... then a certain someone went off the deep end of denial.

It's all good, we're somewhere else now, back on track.

What intrigues me is that in the past, when we have exploited a market, we have done it with several signings. Could we see more arrive from Central/South America yet?

[PurpleCanary 5,601]

10 hours ago, chicken said:

In fairness, we are now trying to keep this on topic and NOT about Brexit.

I will say, as I have already, Purple didn't say anything was bad, just that the post Brexit points system... then a certain someone went off the deep end of denial.

It's all good, we're somewhere else now, back on track.

What intrigues me is that in the past, when we have exploited a market, we have done it with several signings. Could we see more arrive from Central/South America yet?

Quite. As to whether this is a market we can use again, unless it has changed the Brazilian top flight is in band three of the points league and so Sara's total was well above the 15 usually needed. But I suspect that may point up a bit of a problem.

He is not some teenager playing a bit down the pyramid we could pick up cheaply, but a 23 year old playing for one of the top clubs, and so is priced accordingly. But if he signs and it works out well it could mark us down in South America as an English club to join.

[Canaries north 151]

I can still not work out the points system. Take Watford for example, they have had Richarleson, Pedro, Hernandez and this season have Aprillia coming in. All teenage at the time of signing. How did they have the points or how do some clubs get around the system. I also think they are already ahead of us as the UK club for South Americans to join.

[Terminally Yellow 2,492]

19 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

I can still not work out the points system. Take Watford for example, they have had Richarleson, Pedro, Hernandez and this season have Aprillia coming in. All teenage at the time of signing. How did they have the points or how do some clubs get around the system. I also think they are already ahead of us as the UK club for South Americans to join.

All of them were signed years ago, prior to the points system being introduced. They're also part of the Pozzo network allowing them to send the players off on loan to Spanish and Italian clubs to help get experience in a league which gives them the points. Asprilla seems the exception to this; they signed him hoping to bring him in immediately. They failed to get the work permit so he stayed at his former club. While still there he got himself a cap for Colombia which (like Soto with us) got him the necessary points to get a work permit in time for this season.

This is a good summary I keep saved in case I need to remind me of the rules.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Terminally Yellow

[horsefly 4,325]

12 hours ago, chicken said:

Same people in charge then, same people in charge now. No change. Get the picture?

And actually, in regards to Norwich City FC, people were loving it. "All the Germans" etc. That's when I said it. A vote for Brexit was to wish that experience away. And I was right. So many of those players would never have come under the current rules.

And sure, those rules can change. But purple is right - people first of all chose to vote for Brexit, then, at the last general election they got to vote for whether they wanted a hard, jingoistic, nationalistic, hard right, hard Brexit and that's what folks chose.

You can bang on about all kinds of "woulda, shoulda, coulda" but that's what we have right now and those are the constraints the club are working under.

People literally voted to make it harder for clubs like ours.

It may well not have been top of their agenda, but that's what has happened. Now you can try to throw another straw man at it if you want. But all that has been stated is the lie of the land. If you don't like it, the next chance to change it is either, possibly now depending upon the final two candidates and if you are a Conservative party member and get a vote in the leadership OR wait until the next election.

I say that, because the third option, to lobby parliament, would require wads of cash, expensive wallpaper and someone corrupt enough to then take it further than it would otherwise get.

Literally no point in whinging about "it can be changed, it can be changed" when we are talking about this transfer window, and the next, and in all likelihood a good couple of years yet if not more. So yeah, argument lost a loooong time ago. 

Let's not forget, had those Brexit rules been in place we would never have been able to bring Buendia to the club. That would have cost us 3 seasons watching one of the best ever players to wear yellow and green, and cost the club about £30m+ in profit. I hate to think how many other budding Buendias there are out there who we shall never see on these shores.

[chicken 2,680]

And there you have it, Sara is our new number 17... which only leaves the question of who will take the No.11 shirt? 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,869]

AmI i rght in thinking this is our first brazillian?