Striving to make sense of the Ukraine war

[Indy 3,322]

21 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

In reality, NATO is nothing more than a threat. It could be used. But it probably never will. Nuclear will happen before it is ever used  properly and Russia and the US have enough to split the globe in half.

There’s never going to be another global conflict, weapons are too advanced for that, global destruction more like! but there’s bigger issues coming that are as catastrophic as any nuclear war, there’s a study being prepared which will show that 1.5 degree rise in temperature is five years away, there after tide rise will accelerate, the 30 to 50 years grace we thought we had isn’t there. It’s possible that in just 20 years we could see major city’s around the globe have major issues with flooding.

I’m involved with a Norwegian firm which is producing carbon capture equipment to retrofit into multiple types of onshore facilities from factories to refineries, not to mention the Hydrogen production and storage. If the same resources were focused on this tech as is being spent on the global arms race we’d have a bright future!

Edited May 13, 2022 by Indy

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 hours ago, Indy said:

There’s never going to be another global conflict, weapons are too advanced for that, global destruction more like! but there’s bigger issues coming that are as catastrophic as any nuclear war, there’s a study being prepared which will show that 1.5 degree rise in temperature is five years away, there after tide rise will accelerate, the 30 to 50 years grace we thought we had isn’t there. It’s possible that in just 20 years we could see major city’s around the globe have major issues with flooding.

I’m involved with a Norwegian firm which is producing carbon capture equipment to retrofit into multiple types of onshore facilities from factories to refineries, not to mention the Hydrogen production and storage. If the same resources were focused on this tech as is being spent on the global arms race we’d have a bright future!

Different subject Indy but equally ignored by intransigent governments.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-war-of-imperial-aggression-russia-prepares-to-annex-southern-ukraine/

[sonyc 5,541]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by sonyc

[Herman 9,838]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-war-of-imperial-aggression-russia-prepares-to-annex-southern-ukraine/

The way it's going they will be lucky to still have Crimea by the end of the year.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,438]

On 13/05/2022 at 13:46, Indy said:

There’s never going to be another global conflict, weapons are too advanced for that, global destruction more like! but there’s bigger issues coming that are as catastrophic as any nuclear war, there’s a study being prepared which will show that 1.5 degree rise in temperature is five years away, there after tide rise will accelerate, the 30 to 50 years grace we thought we had isn’t there. It’s possible that in just 20 years we could see major city’s around the globe have major issues with flooding.

I’m involved with a Norwegian firm which is producing carbon capture equipment to retrofit into multiple types of onshore facilities from factories to refineries, not to mention the Hydrogen production and storage. If the same resources were focused on this tech as is being spent on the global arms race we’d have a bright future!

It's unbelievable 'we' are still ignoring this.

[Sheva 124]

Ukraine is taking back all territories annexed by the invading Russians.

No one is going to stop them and it will take as long as it takes.

The Ukrainian nation hasn’t weaken but strengthened its its complete determination to defeat Russia and drive them away.

They will then have to completely compensate for all rebuilding and stand trial for all war crimes.

Not 1 family member or friend in Ukraine says anything different and that is a very good cross section of Ukrainians across the country, including some formerly  employed in the Azovstal plant Mariupol.

[horsefly 4,318]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/for-putin-a-nordic-nightmare-is-springing-to-life/ar-AAXi4kJ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=fb8140669baf42f29c179c31cedec7b7

[horsefly 4,318]

Remarkable performance of the Ukrainian troops:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ukrainian-forces-reach-russian-border-in-counter-attack/ar-AAXjhzg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=59e23c756a4b4d01aba753d8b344f126

Ukrainian forces reach Russian border in counter-attack

[Indy 3,322]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Remarkable performance of the Ukrainian troops:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ukrainian-forces-reach-russian-border-in-counter-attack/ar-AAXjhzg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=59e23c756a4b4d01aba753d8b344f126

Ukrainian forces reach Russian border in counter-attack

It really appears like a half arsed job by the Russians! They’re really not prepared, soldier’s not motivated for the fight, but then again which conflict ever goes to plan, Vietnam, Korean, Afghanistan all special operations which didn’t really go to plan. War is the most idiotic trait of mankind, only just ahead of religion! 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Indy

[Foxy2600 305]

I’d be more concerned about Belorus getting involved now, after all Luckachenkov or whatever the horrible slime ball is called, is champing at the bit to help his puppeteer Vladolf save face 🤬

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

13 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

I’d be more concerned about Belorus getting involved now, after all Luckachenkov or whatever the horrible slime ball is called, is champing at the bit to help his puppeteer Vladolf save face 🤬

Actually I think he's doing his best to stay out of it or do the minimum lip service for Putin. As a slime ball he can already see the way this pans out.

Stationing a few troops on the border 'fixes' some Ukrainian forces to counter but it never needed to go further than that. The time to of committed forces to help Putin was earlier but he didn't. 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

On 08/05/2022 at 10:54, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not sure what you think the value of your addition is, other than painting the Russian ineptitude as even greater than I was suggesting. 

As for 'N4zification', most likely Putin himself has had a hand in funding and fuelling extremist groups in Ukraine  to justify his illegal war, much as he has been playing both ends against the middle in destabilising our own democracies; you can take the KGB stooge out of the KGB, but you can't take the KGB out of the ex-KGB stooge. 

Thanks for your  unsubstantiated bag of our western media regurgitation. why don't you link to were/when Putin ' funded and fueled' extremist groups in Ukraine and who are they?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

On 08/05/2022 at 16:26, horsefly said:

Written in 2013:

As the Sochi Winter Olympics approach there is growing concern over the Neo-**** movement in Russia. Over half of the world’s Neo-N*zi members are in Russia.  This movement is behind the abuse of gays and violation of gay rights.  The group also opposes foreigners, Jews, Muslims, Roma, and Asians.

The group has recently become a paramilitary organization, although they claim to be a sports club.  The Neo-Nazis are training members in weapons as well as hand-to-hand combat.  Many of the weapons used are outlawed, and therefore bought from the black market.  They are strictly anti-drug or alcohol, focusing on fitness and bodybuilding to train for their “revolution.”

There are an estimated 50,000-70,000 Neo-Nazis in Russia according to an ABC News report.  The group seemed to organize around widespread unemployment and poverty in the early 1990s.  Many of the members are young adults who were hit hardest by the economic downturn.  The group operates under the official name of the Russian National Unity, a party founded by Alexander Barkashov in 1990.  The party symbol is the swastika and some members receive military training in Moscow.

In 2007 a student associated with the Neo-Nazis was arrested for posting a video of two migrant workers being beheaded in front of a swastika flag.  Recently the group has been targeting gay youth, finding them on dating sites or social media.  Neo-Nazis may create fake profiles and ask to meet up with someone who identifies as homosexual only to then physically and emotionally abuse them.  Many of these attacks have been posted online.  The group recognizes homosexuality as ‘pedophilia” and see their acts of violence as justified under this definition.  Groups have organized using the slogan “Occupy Pedofilya” as a rally cry against homosexuality.

– Stephanie Lamm https://borgenproject.org/neo-nazis-russia/

Written in jan 2022

 

One of the most feared and radical Russian paramilitary groups may have slipped up on social media and revealed its plans to return undercover to Ukraine, where it was accused of committing war crimes during a previous incursion.

Task Force Rusich, a Russian mercenary unit which glories in its neo-Na*zi reputation, became known for its brutality when it was first deployed to the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine during peak fighting between Russian separatist forces and the Ukrainian military in the summer of 2014.

Now it seems Rusich has set its sights on the strategically important north-eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. That could mean the Wagner Group—which counts Rusich among its network of off-the-books fighting cadres posted all over the world—will be well-positioned for the opening salvo in what some fear may be the prelude to an all-out war between Russia and Ukraine.

I could, of course, post countless similar articles on Russian neo-Naz*is. If you really were anti-Naz*i you would not be supporting Putin.

I'am not supporting Putin and Putin is not Russia. The Wagner Group has its equals here in the west and many are fighting in Ukraine as Zelenski gets his attack orders from Biden Boris and Neuland. The result of this war crazy gang of psycho's is fear creation. Enough fear to goad/force Finland and Sweden into the liars den NATO.

The US is playing its own game here in Eutope and is making it obvious that any war will be happening here, not in their hate filled country, were any angry Naz*i, and you are right, they are coming out of every global nook and cranny, can buy guns and shoot up some Asians and black people. Other Naz*i's ban marches that commemorate the killing of another Journalist in Jenin, or banning the BDS campaign from protesting.

Then there are Naz*i's in Poland who want all out war with Russia, whilst Canada's 3 million plus Ukrainian naz*i's are fully aligned with US KKK and Alt right Naz*is and our very own Patriotic Alternative, made up from the backwash characters previously hiding in the EDL, the BNP. Britain First and National Action.

All of Europe have right wing groups, from Golden Dawn to the AFD, then we have lone wolfs such as Breivig who modelled himself on Zionist actions in Israel, and many many more.

Whats your point? that it does not matter all in a sudden to be a right wing nutjob?get real and practice your salute

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

3 hours ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

Thanks for your  unsubstantiated bag of our western media regurgitation. why don't you link to were/when Putin ' funded and fueled' extremist groups in Ukraine and who are they?

Why don't you link to literally anything remotely credible that supports your incoherent, deluded, rubbish, pro-Putin rants first and I'll get back to you, war criminal apologist. Only a moron or an actively malicious agent of disinformation would write off all Western media as disinformation while treating Putin's word as gospel truth like you do. 

Nevermind, your half-4ssed idea of communism had it decades ago, and Putin has absolutely nothing to do with it in any ideological sense anyway, but you're too thick to have noticed in your sad anti-capitalist fervour. What a pathetic muppet you are. At least people like Putin are seeking to gain something themselves from their vile and cynical undermining of democracy; you just do it because you're stupid. 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,318]

3 hours ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

Thanks for your  unsubstantiated bag of our western media regurgitation. why don't you link to were/when Putin ' funded and fueled' extremist groups in Ukraine and who are they?

I suppose you could start with the articles I posted, that you just quoted but obviously haven't read.

[Bort 34]

A couple of points on the apparent prevalence of pro-N*zi sentiment in Ukraine that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

Most relevant to recent news, the number of Ukrainian soldiers that have been photographed sporting N*zi insignia on their uniforms is somewhat alarming - the Totenkopf seems to be quite common, as does the Sonnenrad. The latter was also included in the white supremacist manifesto of the mass shooter in Buffalo a few days ago, to give some context for what that symbol represents (originally designed by Himmler apparently).

Importantly, these concerning pictures of Ukrainian soldiers haven't just come from Russian media, with several being shared by Ukrainian news sites or officials - Zelenskyy's verified Instagram account posted one to celebrate Victory Day, before deleting it when the irony was pointed out in the comments.

On the topic of WWII, another unsettling trend is the surge in glorification of Stepan Bandera, an antisemitic Ukrainian nationalist who led violent pogroms during the war with the aim of collaborating with N*zi Germany. There are now monuments to him across the country, several of which were constructed relatively recently (a large one in Lviv was unveiled in 2007). Again, Zelenskyy himself has described Bandera as "a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine."

To be clear, I don't wish to defend Putin's oligarchic rule or ignore the war crimes recorded by Russian soldiers (though I would argue both of these elements mirror the West and its actions more closely than many would like to admit), but framing this conflict simply as "Good Guys vs Bad Guys" - as I've seen some posters do in this thread - is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of the salient facts and wider context.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

8 minutes ago, Bort said:

A couple of points on the apparent prevalence of pro-N*zi sentiment in Ukraine that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

Most relevant to recent news, the number of Ukrainian soldiers that have been photographed sporting N*zi insignia on their uniforms is somewhat alarming - the Totenkopf seems to be quite common, as does the Sonnenrad. The latter was also included in the white supremacist manifesto of the mass shooter in Buffalo a few days ago, to give some context for what that symbol represents (originally designed by Himmler apparently).

Importantly, these concerning pictures of Ukrainian soldiers haven't just come from Russian media, with several being shared by Ukrainian news sites or officials - Zelenskyy's verified Instagram account posted one to celebrate Victory Day, before deleting it when the irony was pointed out in the comments.

On the topic of WWII, another unsettling trend is the surge in glorification of Stepan Bandera, an antisemitic Ukrainian nationalist who led violent pogroms during the war with the aim of collaborating with N*zi Germany. There are now monuments to him across the country, several of which were constructed relatively recently (a large one in Lviv was unveiled in 2007). Again, Zelenskyy himself has described Bandera as "a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine."

To be clear, I don't wish to defend Putin's oligarchic rule or ignore the war crimes recorded by Russian soldiers (though I would argue both of these elements mirror the West and its actions more closely than many would like to admit), but framing this conflict simply as "Good Guys vs Bad Guys" - as I've seen some posters do in this thread - is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of the salient facts and wider context.

What are the salient facts in a wider context?

Ukraine does indeed have a link to the N*zis from the past and as with any other nation, has a far right who find it convenient to adopt N*zi doctrine as a first step to achieving their goals. Personally,  i believe its because they have neither the wit or intelligence to come up with any imaginative alternatives.

And of course, many nations with an active far right were once part of the Soviet Union and their hatred of that regime is nurtured by the far right.

[Bort 34]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

What are the salient facts in a wider context?

From what I've read, it's difficult to get much of a grasp on this without going through the history of Russia's relationship with Ukraine, and then more recently understanding how the West (primarily the USA) has influenced the governments of both countries. 

On the recent US-Ukraine dynamic, one of the most comprehensive and thoroughly-sourced articles I've seen is this one, written earlier this year before the conflict even broke out: https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/

Going back further in time, I think it's very important to appreciate how the current Russian government is partially a result of Western involvement. The CIA supporting Yeltsin taking power (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/us-agents-helped-yeltsin-break-coup-1436470.html) helped bring about the dissolution of the USSR, despite a 1991 referendum which showed significant support across all Soviet republics - including Ukraine - to maintain the Union. This dissolution is what led to the rise of corruption via privatisation in Russia, as state assets were sold off cheaply to the oligarchs, and a concurrent drop in overall living standards shown by life expectancy falling from 69 years in 1990 to 64 in 1994 (as well as a rise in drug addiction, homelessness, child prostitution etc). Obviously the Western capitalists didn't mind this too much, as the main thing from their point of view was access to a new market for their products, and opportunities to increase profit.

The sudden polarisation of Russian society between the new capital-owning class and the wider population wasn't sustainable though, and when Putin came into power (encouraged by none other than US-backed Yeltsin), he felt the need to reverse some of the privatisation - most notably renationalising Gazprom - to regain some control over the oligarchs, and placate the public through welfare reform. This new direction obviously went against the free market mentality of the US in particular, and the relationship between the two countries has deteriorated to the point we're at now.

As for Russia-Ukraine relations specifically, there appears to have been some fairly recent historical revisionism which has helped to foster anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine and the West. One prominent example is the work of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, which was established by the US Congress in 1993 - among other things, this organisation has attempted to frame the Ukrainian famine in the early 1930s as a deliberate, genocidal act by Stalin and the Soviet leadership. Even the name it's been given, the "Holodomor", wasn't coined until the late 1980s and is a clear intention to conflate this famine with the N*zi Holocaust. Despite this narrative, the general consensus even among Western academics is that there's not sufficient evidence to claim that the famine was deliberately engineered, instead concluding that it was caused by a mixture of factors including poor weather conditions, initial errors in central planning, sabotage by landowners protesting against collectivisation, and the necessity for increased grain exports thanks to the global markets being impacted by the Great Depression. The very fact that the famine wasn't restricted to Ukraine, and also greatly affected Kazakhstan and significant parts of Russia, should be enough to disprove the "genocide" theory.

As you can imagine, the above has contributed to heightened tensions between Ukraine and Russia and is one of the reasons that figures from the past like Bandera are now being held up as national heroes, given that he was anti-Russian and anti-Communist (never mind the N*zism).

Sorry for going on a bit, but I find this conflict fascinating, and desperately hope it doesn't escalate any further than it already has.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

16 minutes ago, Bort said:

From what I've read, it's difficult to get much of a grasp on this without going through the history of Russia's relationship with Ukraine, and then more recently understanding how the West (primarily the USA) has influenced the governments of both countries. 

On the recent US-Ukraine dynamic, one of the most comprehensive and thoroughly-sourced articles I've seen is this one, written earlier this year before the conflict even broke out: https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/

Going back further in time, I think it's very important to appreciate how the current Russian government is partially a result of Western involvement. The CIA supporting Yeltsin taking power (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/us-agents-helped-yeltsin-break-coup-1436470.html) helped bring about the dissolution of the USSR, despite a 1991 referendum which showed significant support across all Soviet republics - including Ukraine - to maintain the Union. This dissolution is what led to the rise of corruption via privatisation in Russia, as state assets were sold off cheaply to the oligarchs, and a concurrent drop in overall living standards shown by life expectancy falling from 69 years in 1990 to 64 in 1994 (as well as a rise in drug addiction, homelessness, child prostitution etc). Obviously the Western capitalists didn't mind this too much, as the main thing from their point of view was access to a new market for their products, and opportunities to increase profit.

The sudden polarisation of Russian society between the new capital-owning class and the wider population wasn't sustainable though, and when Putin came into power (encouraged by none other than US-backed Yeltsin), he felt the need to reverse some of the privatisation - most notably renationalising Gazprom - to regain some control over the oligarchs, and placate the public through welfare reform. This new direction obviously went against the free market mentality of the US in particular, and the relationship between the two countries has deteriorated to the point we're at now.

As for Russia-Ukraine relations specifically, there appears to have been some fairly recent historical revisionism which has helped to foster anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine and the West. One prominent example is the work of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, which was established by the US Congress in 1993 - among other things, this organisation has attempted to frame the Ukrainian famine in the early 1930s as a deliberate, genocidal act by Stalin and the Soviet leadership. Even the name it's been given, the "Holodomor", wasn't coined until the late 1980s and is a clear intention to conflate this famine with the N*zi Holocaust. Despite this narrative, the general consensus even among Western academics is that there's not sufficient evidence to claim that the famine was deliberately engineered, instead concluding that it was caused by a mixture of factors including poor weather conditions, initial errors in central planning, sabotage by landowners protesting against collectivisation, and the necessity for increased grain exports thanks to the global markets being impacted by the Great Depression. The very fact that the famine wasn't restricted to Ukraine, and also greatly affected Kazakhstan and significant parts of Russia, should be enough to disprove the "genocide" theory.

As you can imagine, the above has contributed to heightened tensions between Ukraine and Russia and is one of the reasons that figures from the past like Bandera are now being held up as national heroes, given that he was anti-Russian and anti-Communist (never mind the N*zism).

Sorry for going on a bit, but I find this conflict fascinating, and desperately hope it doesn't escalate any further than it already has.

Ukraine's history has always been one of conflict, regime change and foreign interference. Even after 1917, those in west of the country wanted independence from the Bolsheviks. Unfortunately, there seems to be little dilution of old hatreds and disputes. Until these nations move on as the west has after WWII, unrest is always just under the surface.

[horsefly 4,318]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

but framing this conflict simply as "Good Guys vs Bad Guys" - as I've seen some posters do in this thread - is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of the salient facts and wider context.

Just what do you think is the significance of your claim here? Just what are the putative "salient facts" and "wider context" that mitigate against the claim that it is indeed a very straightforward fact that Russia is entirely in the wrong for invading another country's sovereign territory, and wrong to prosecute murder and rape against innocent civilians on an epic scale? 

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

54 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Just what do you think is the significance of your claim here? Just what are the putative "salient facts" and "wider context" that mitigate against the claim that it is indeed a very straightforward fact that Russia is entirely in the wrong for invading another country's sovereign territory, and wrong to prosecute murder and rape against innocent civilians on an epic scale? 

The quote came from me HF a few pages back - 

"In Putin's case one only has to look at any of his speeches to see who the aggressor is and his fantasies - and continuing Russian propaganda (for the benefits of the Russians themselves - no alternative views allowed) to quickly come to a conclusion as to what is happening. That doesn't mean that Ukrainians are whiter than white or that there haven't been war crimes enacted by them (much like we did in WW2) but in this case there are clearly good guys and bad guys."

Very clearly I'm stating there are shades of grey but Bort is simply in danger of trying to excuse or explain the current Russian (dare I say Putin's) actions by reference to old history and largely disproved grievances. I'm actually also at a bit of a loss to grasp just who or what "N a z i" means to Putin or those on the more extreme left. It seems a bit of catchall phrase for those that they wish to demonize and label on the right without anymore thought!

Yes there are extreme right elements in all the ex Soviet states, Russia included. Ukraine however was and is clearly a functioning democracy unlike Russia or Belarus - with a Jewish president! It had also subsumed and largely already 'de-nazified' the Azov Regiment prior to this war. I'm sure we could all now make the same claim to 'de Nazify' Russia as defined by their actions.

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[Bort 34]

53 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Just what do you think is the significance of your claim here? Just what are the putative "salient facts" and "wider context" that mitigate against the claim that it is indeed a very straightforward fact that Russia is entirely in the wrong for invading another country's sovereign territory, and wrong to prosecute murder and rape against innocent civilians on an epic scale? 

I'll assume you've read my second post, and I'll also reiterate that I don't intend to defend Russian war crimes. I hope all such incidences perpetrated by either side are fully investigated and those involved held accountable. A swift diplomatic resolution should be supported by all, including external governments, and is the only morally justifiable approach at this stage.

What I do take issue with is the way some people (not necessarily on this board) are looking at this conflict as if it's happening in isolation. Putin is crazy evil man, so he does crazy evil things. Russian soldiers are subhuman "orcs" doing the bidding of their master, Ukrainian soldiers are noble defenders, Zelenskyy is basically a superhero, etc. etc. It's treated like a Marvel film.

The danger of this is that it's completely devoid of any serious analysis of the motivations of the parties involved, and crucially how we got to the point where this is happening. Without understanding that, there's no reason to question the superficial narrative of clashing ideologies (Good vs Evil, Democracy vs Dictatorship, Freedom vs Tyranny), and it leads to some people thinking direct Western military intervention is the solution, all while chanting "Slava Ukraini!" without knowing the incredibly significant history to that phrase (hint: Bandera's involved again).

The same simplistic approach is what rationalised the invasions of Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, all of which have been disastrous for the local populations and have resulted in millions of deaths overall. It will lead to more misery in future.

What's particularly democratic about Ukraine, a country that in 2014 had an elected Russian-friendly leader overthrown and replaced by a more EU-friendly one, in a coup supported by foreign powers? One example in a long, long list of US involvement in regime changes. Civilians in the Donbas have been suffering ever since (thousands of deaths due to shelling), but we didn't really hear about that.

Ultimately, this is a proxy war between Western and Russian capital. NATO, formed as an explicitly anti-Russian alliance, should have been dissolved when the Warsaw Pact broke up in 1991. Instead, it's expanded Eastwards, rejected Russian requests to join, and furthered the interests of billionaires by effectively acting as the military arm of the IMF and the World Bank. It makes Putin, reprehensible as he is, look tame by comparison.

[Bort 34]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Very clearly I'm stating there are shades of grey but Bort is simply in danger of trying to excuse or explain the current Russian (dare I say Putin's) actions by reference to old history and largely disproved grievances. I'm actually also at a bit of a loss to grasp just who or what "N a z i" means to Putin or those on the more extreme left. It seems a bit of catchall phrase for those that they wish to demonize and label on the right without anymore thought!

Yes there are extreme right elements in all the ex Soviet states, Russia included. Ukraine however was and is clearly a functioning democracy unlike Russia or Belarus - with a Jewish president! It had also subsumed and largely already 'de-nazified' the Azov Regiment prior to this war. I'm sure we could all now make the same claim to 'de Nazify' Russia as defined by their actions.

I'd be interested to know which "largely disproved grievances" you're referring to.

Zelenskyy being Jewish isn't an indicator that Ukraine doesn't have a N*zi problem - Obama was president, and yet racism is still present in many aspects of American society. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

13 minutes ago, Bort said:

I'll assume you've read my second post, and I'll also reiterate that I don't intend to defend Russian war crimes. I hope all such incidences perpetrated by either side are fully investigated and those involved held accountable. A swift diplomatic resolution should be supported by all, including external governments, and is the only morally justifiable approach at this stage.

What I do take issue with is the way some people (not necessarily on this board) are looking at this conflict as if it's happening in isolation. Putin is crazy evil man, so he does crazy evil things. Russian soldiers are subhuman "orcs" doing the bidding of their master, Ukrainian soldiers are noble defenders, Zelenskyy is basically a superhero, etc. etc. It's treated like a Marvel film.

The danger of this is that it's completely devoid of any serious analysis of the motivations of the parties involved, and crucially how we got to the point where this is happening. Without understanding that, there's no reason to question the superficial narrative of clashing ideologies (Good vs Evil, Democracy vs Dictatorship, Freedom vs Tyranny), and it leads to some people thinking direct Western military intervention is the solution, all while chanting "Slava Ukraini!" without knowing the incredibly significant history to that phrase (hint: Bandera's involved again).

The same simplistic approach is what rationalised the invasions of Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, all of which have been disastrous for the local populations and have resulted in millions of deaths overall. It will lead to more misery in future.

What's particularly democratic about Ukraine, a country that in 2014 had an elected Russian-friendly leader overthrown and replaced by a more EU-friendly one, in a coup supported by foreign powers? One example in a long, long list of US involvement in regime changes. Civilians in the Donbas have been suffering ever since (thousands of deaths due to shelling), but we didn't really hear about that.

Ultimately, this is a proxy war between Western and Russian capital. NATO, formed as an explicitly anti-Russian alliance, should have been dissolved when the Warsaw Pact broke up in 1991. Instead, it's expanded Eastwards, rejected Russian requests to join, and furthered the interests of billionaires by effectively acting as the military arm of the IMF and the World Bank. It makes Putin, reprehensible as he is, look tame by comparison.

Ukraine had been tilting towards the EU for years; Victor Yanukovych sabotaged that overnight, which prompted the popular public uprising (not a far right coup as Russian propagandists would have it) that deposed him.

Additionally, for it to be a proxy war, neither Russia or the US would be directly involved. Russia is directly involved and is the instigator of this illegal and genocidal invasion.

Edited May 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Bort 34]

10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Ukraine had been tilting towards the EU for years; Victor Yanukovych sabotaged that overnight, which prompted the popular public uprising (not a far right coup as Russian propagandists would have it) that deposed him.

Additionally, for it to be a proxy war, neither Russia or the US would be directly involved. Russia is directly involved and is the instigator of this illegal and genocidal invasion.

Ukrainian public opinion about Euromaidan at the time was very much 50/50, and the majority of the support was in the West of the country. I'm sure it's just unfortunate that the interests of Svoboda, Right Sector etc. aligned with that of the protest.

You misunderstand me, I said a proxy war between Western and Russian capital. It's oligarch vs oligarch, and the pawns are doing the fighting.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

Ukrainian public opinion about Euromaidan at the time was very much 50/50, and the majority of the support was in the West of the country. I'm sure it's just unfortunate that the interests of Svoboda, Right Sector etc. aligned with that of the protest.

You misunderstand me, I said a proxy war between Western and Russian capital. It's oligarch vs oligarch, and the pawns are doing the fighting.

So you say, but Ukraine's current opposition to Russia's invasion is in no way split, as Russian losses are testament to. 

The unarmed Ukranians shot in the back on CCTV by Russian troops stealing from the building they guarded weren't pawns; they were victims of a war crime, much like the other thousands of civilians tied up and executed by Russian forces that are being investigated. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,318]

3 hours ago, Bort said:

A swift diplomatic resolution should be supported by all, including external governments, and is the only morally justifiable approach at this stage.

Really! You want to claim that the Ukraine does not have a clear moral justification for seeking militarily to drive Russian troops from its sovereign territory? It has both a legal and moral right to do precisely that.

3 hours ago, Bort said:

What I do take issue with is the way some people (not necessarily on this board) are looking at this conflict as if it's happening in isolation. Putin is crazy evil man, so he does crazy evil things. Russian soldiers are subhuman "orcs" doing the bidding of their master, Ukrainian soldiers are noble defenders, Zelenskyy is basically a superhero, etc. etc. It's treated like a Marvel film.

Not a remotely helpful caricature. If there are such people then ignore them, and deal with the genuine reasoned arguments supporting the Ukrainian position, of which there are many.

3 hours ago, Bort said:

The danger of this is that it's completely devoid of any serious analysis of the motivations of the parties involved, and crucially how we got to the point where this is happening. Without understanding that, there's no reason to question the superficial narrative of clashing ideologies (Good vs Evil, Democracy vs Dictatorship, Freedom vs Tyranny), and it leads to some people thinking direct Western military intervention is the solution, all while chanting "Slava Ukraini!" without knowing the incredibly significant history to that phrase (hint: Bandera's involved again).

Russia signed an agreement protecting the right of Ukraine to its sovereign territory (Ukraine gave up its nuclear weaponry in response). Russia completely breached that agreement by invading the Crimea in 2014, and the rest of Ukraine in 2022; that's how we got to the point where this is happening". Neither Ukraine nor NATO have demonstrated the slightest interest or intention to invade Russian soil. Only the truly gullible or a Russian apologist would swallow Putin's fictions about self-defence and de-Na*zification.

3 hours ago, Bort said:

What's particularly democratic about Ukraine, a country that in 2014 had an elected Russian-friendly leader overthrown and replaced by a more EU-friendly one, in a coup supported by foreign powers? One example in a long, long list of US involvement in regime changes. Civilians in the Donbas have been suffering ever since (thousands of deaths due to shelling), but we didn't really hear about that.

You seem to have missed the democratic elections in Ukraine that have expressed the will of the people very clearly. Take a look at the last one in particular, it might just set you straight concerning your fictions that virtually every Ukrainian is a Na*zi waiting to reignite the holocaust. Interesting too that in discussing Donbass you fail to mention the Russian backed forces (including Putin's favourite, the neo-Na*zi Wagner group) that have shelled Ukrainian towns and villages from the very beginning. Perhaps you should have a word with the relatives of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 while your at it https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48691488.

3 hours ago, Bort said:

Ultimately, this is a proxy war between Western and Russian capital. NATO, formed as an explicitly anti-Russian alliance, should have been dissolved when the Warsaw Pact broke up in 1991. Instead, it's expanded Eastwards, rejected Russian requests to join, and furthered the interests of billionaires by effectively acting as the military arm of the IMF and the World Bank. It makes Putin, reprehensible as he is, look tame by comparison.

I wonder if anything in recent history and the present world order might explain why Russia was not allowed to join NATO. I must switch on the TV and see what is happening.

You call for people to be more aware of the history of how we got to this position and yet you present an intentional pro-Russian fabrication of that very history. NATO was formed as an absolutely necessary collective defence pact to protect the democracies of Europe from Stalin's very clear expansionist empire building ambitions. Feel free to correct your knowledge by watching the plethora of contemporary news footage showing Russian tanks rolling into Poland, Czechoslovakia etc, etc (has a horribly familiar feel doesn't it!). That NATO's membership has "expanded" since its inception is hardly a surprise given Russia's history of invading other countries. But note, the "expansion" involved has nothing to do with invading another country (completely unlike Russian expansion), and everything to do with providing increased collective military protection to a country to deter the threat from Russian aggression. NATO has no territorial expansionist ambitions, Russia does. Countries that have joined NATO do not become ruled or owned by NATO, the very opposite is true of countries invaded by Russia. These and many other clear distinctions between the two are not difficult facts to grasp.

I'm afraid your protestations that you're not a Putin apologist are demonstrably contradicted by pretty much every point you make. To suggest that NATO's defensive alliance makes "Putin look tame by comparison" reveals just how warped your view is.

Edited May 17, 2022 by horsefly

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

3 hours ago, Bort said:

I'd be interested to know which "largely disproved grievances" you're referring to.

Zelenskyy being Jewish isn't an indicator that Ukraine doesn't have a N*zi problem - Obama was president, and yet racism is still present in many aspects of American society. 

Its been done to death already but start with Putin's reasons he himself has exposed for invading Ukraine. 

Then again, if you (or more so Putin) beleived he had good cause then he shouldn't be worried about banning any opposing 'western' view within the Russian media. The truth is simple, Putin has got himself so wrapped up in his own rhetoric that he's made a catastrophic mistake.