Striving to make sense of the Ukraine war

[cambridgeshire canary 7,465]

13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It had never occurred to me before, but is that the main reason left wing extremism is viewed with much more tolerance than right wing extremism?

Think it also helps that the extreme left and right are different in their messages and the way they do things. Those on the facist extreme right of things will gladly shout loudly at you about the roaches they wish to exterminate. Those on the extreme left however will be more soft about it, more "kind" with their messages. It will be a beautiful utopia, all will be equal and there will be peace.. Provided you submit to the glorious supreme leader and never once question all of his desires of course. The far left is more..palatable when it comes to trying to convince you and to get you to believe in them.

 

It's funny, I do remember once being told something that rather stuck with me.

 

"communism sounds great on paper but is awful in reality, while capitalism sounds awful on paper but sometimes works in reality"

[Naturalcynic 817]

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Think it also helps that the extreme left and right are different in their messages and the way they do things. Those on the facist extreme right of things will gladly shout loudly at you about the roaches they wish to exterminate. Those on the extreme left however will be more soft about it, more "kind" with their messages. It will be a beautiful utopia, all will be equal and there will be peace.. Provided you submit to the glorious supreme leader and never once question all of his desires of course. The far left is more..palatable when it comes to trying to convince you and to get you to believe in them.

 

It's funny, I do remember once being told something that rather stuck with me.

 

"communism sounds great on paper but is awful in reality, while capitalism sounds awful on paper but sometimes works in reality"

The idealist utopia of all being equal and each according to their needs is easy to sell to the young and naïve, which is why far-left politics and activism always go down well with students and other young people, but as we know the world isn’t like that and basic human nature means the socialist dream is always bound to fail.  For most people, when they take on life’s responsibilities they realise this and their youthful radicalism is usually tempered as a result.  I’m a case in point: as a university student 40 years ago I was a member of CND, read The Guardian and thought that my parents and most other middle-aged adults were racists and bigots. That youthful certainty soon left me once I started having to work for a living and became what’s commonly known as a floating voter who has in the past voted Labour, Green and Conservative, but these days see myself very much as being just right of centre whilst still holding some views that would traditionally be seen as left wing, such as believing that major utilities such as water, gas, electricity, railways etc should be in public ownership.  Fundamentally I have a deep suspicion of the zealotry that comes with extreme political views, whether far-left or far-right.  It’s just that in the West the far-left flavour of extremism is much much more prevalent.

Edited May 9 by Naturalcynic

[A Load of Squit 5,883]

A window of opportunity.

 

[ricardo 7,757]

11 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

A window of opportunity.

 

Have they told him to fall out of a window.

[A Load of Squit 5,883]

Just now, ricardo said:

Have they told him to fall out of a window.

You don't get told.

[KiwiScot 1,647]

Russia with the offensive the Ukrainians couldn't do last year

[Mr Angry 1,763]

Putin being a c u n t again 🤬

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c6p2zqlvqdgt

 

[Foxy2600 342]

13 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

Putin being a c u n t again 🤬

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c6p2zqlvqdgt

 

Trump will sort it, just like the Yanks did in AfghanIraqVietistan.

UN powerless.

UK more worried about Gaza and men growing cervix’s.

Time for the West to roll over and let the Commie Dictatorships do what the hell they like. Forget global warming protests too!

Edited July 8 by Foxy2600
🤬

[Indy 3,413]

This entire world is so full of aggressive idiots who believe in an antiquated ideology, NATO condemns Russia for its aggression and killing innocent people yet arms Israel who commit the same atrocities! I’m a tad fed up with them all, wouldn’t it be good to kick out old geriatric leaders and aggressive ones and install some normal leaders who can accept each others nations, beliefs and identity and build on that with peaceful solutions to a global issue which will soon challenge humanity.

[Yellow Fever 4,236]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

This entire world is so full of aggressive idiots who believe in an antiquated ideology, NATO condemns Russia for its aggression and killing innocent people yet arms Israel who commit the same atrocities! I’m a tad fed up with them all, wouldn’t it be good to kick out old geriatric leaders and aggressive ones and install some normal leaders who can accept each others nations, beliefs and identity and build on that with peaceful solutions to a global issue which will soon challenge humanity.

Don't think NATO arms Israel or can be blamed for that debacle. That's almost the US alone these days.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,465]

7 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Don't think NATO arms Israel or can be blamed for that debacle. That's almost the US alone these days.

Be hard for Israel to not want to wage a war when they have a certain group named "Hamas" next to them who have an aim and goal of removing all jews from existence from the middle east..

[Indy 3,413]

43 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Don't think NATO arms Israel or can be blamed for that debacle. That's almost the US alone these days.

Most NATO countries sell arms to Israel.

[Yellow Fever 4,236]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

Most NATO countries sell arms to Israel.

That's irrelevant. It's not NATO as you suggested but individual sovereign states if they do. I'm sure Turkey (a NATO member) would veto any such NATO  transfer etc.

[Naturalcynic 817]

8 minutes ago, Indy said:

Most NATO countries sell arms to Israel.

And who sells/gives arms to Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc?  If you disarm one side (Israel), what do you think the outcome would be?

[ron obvious 1,610]

On 09/05/2024 at 16:03, cambridgeshire canary said:

Think it also helps that the extreme left and right are different in their messages and the way they do things. Those on the facist extreme right of things will gladly shout loudly at you about the roaches they wish to exterminate. Those on the extreme left however will be more soft about it, more "kind" with their messages. It will be a beautiful utopia, all will be equal and there will be peace.. Provided you submit to the glorious supreme leader and never once question all of his desires of course. The far left is more..palatable when it comes to trying to convince you and to get you to believe in them.

 

It's funny, I do remember once being told something that rather stuck with me.

 

"communism sounds great on paper but is awful in reality, while capitalism sounds awful on paper but sometimes works in reality"

The Left wants to do what is best for you.

The Right want to do what's best for them.

Unfortunately the end result is the same.

[yellow hammer 89]

On 10/07/2024 at 11:56, Indy said:

This entire world is so full of aggressive idiots who believe in an antiquated ideology, NATO condemns Russia for its aggression and killing innocent people yet arms Israel who commit the same atrocities! I’m a tad fed up with them all, wouldn’t it be good to kick out old geriatric leaders and aggressive ones and install some normal leaders who can accept each others nations, beliefs and identity and build on that with peaceful solutions to a global issue which will soon challenge humanity.

You mean like Greta?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,981]

On 10/07/2024 at 17:43, ron obvious said:

The Left wants to do what is best for you.

The Right want to do what's best for them.

Unfortunately the end result is the same.

‘Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.’ - CS Lewis

[littleyellowbirdie 2,981]

On 10/07/2024 at 17:39, Naturalcynic said:

And who sells/gives arms to Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc?  If you disarm one side (Israel), what do you think the outcome would be?

What worries me about the disarm Israel brigade is that I think they know full well they’re effectively arguing for genocide against Israel and just don’t care.

[Indy 3,413]

40 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What worries me about the disarm Israel brigade is that I think they know full well they’re effectively arguing for genocide against Israel and just don’t care.

Load of xxxx! No one is or has said disarm Israel, but a lot are saying fight Hamas and not kill children & women in camps and hospitals! The same as the anger against the despicable actions by Russia on Ukraine! But that goes past you! Fight the enemy not the innocent!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,981]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

Load of xxxx! No one is or has said disarm Israel, but a lot are saying fight Hamas and not kill children & women in camps and hospitals! The same as the anger against the despicable actions by Russia on Ukraine! But that goes past you! Fight the enemy not the innocent!

Loads of people argue for preventing arms sales to Isral among the 'pro Palestinian' brigade, including on this forum.

Likening the Arab israeli conflict to Russia/Ukraine is specious nonsense.

Edited July 11 by littleyellowbirdie

[Indy 3,413]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Loads of people argue for preventing arms sales to Isral among the 'pro Palestinian' brigade, including on this forum.

Likening the Arab israeli conflict to Russia/Ukraine is specious nonsense.

No it’s not I suppose you condemn Russia for killing kids? Yet you won’t condemn Israel for the same act! You try and bend your arguments to suit your pro aggression Israel to carry out mass killings! But we know your narrow view of this. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,981]

59 minutes ago, Indy said:

No it’s not I suppose you condemn Russia for killing kids?

Hamas started this war in Gaza with an act of genocide. Russia started the war in Ukraine with an unprovoked invasion.

I more condemn Russia for stealing children from Ukrainian families to be adopted and raised as Russian, which is clearly genocidal behaviour, in contrast to collateral damage in Gaza caused by a combination of Hamas using their own people as human shields and the world denying Gazan civilians refuge outside of Gaza while Israel conducts a legitimate war on Hamas in response to October 7th.

So like I said, enough of the specious nonsense likening Israel to Russia.

 

 

Edited July 11 by littleyellowbirdie

[Naturalcynic 817]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

No it’s not I suppose you condemn Russia for killing kids? Yet you won’t condemn Israel for the same act! You try and bend your arguments to suit your pro aggression Israel to carry out mass killings! But we know your narrow view of this. 

As a general point I doubt anyone is particularly thrilled at children being killed in a war.  On the streets of London and other Western capitals we see demonstration after demonstration denouncing Israel but never any denouncing Russia.  

[Indy 3,413]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Hamas started this war in Gaza with an act of genocide. Russia started the war in Ukraine with an unprovoked invasion.

I more condemn Russia for stealing children from Ukrainian families to be adopted and raised as Russian, which is clearly genocidal behaviour, in contrast to collateral damage in Gaza caused by a combination of Hamas using their own people as human shields and the world denying Gazan civilians refuge outside of Russia while Israel conducts a legitimate war on Hamas in response to October 7th.

So like I said, enough of the specious nonsense likening Israel to Russia.

 

 

As always you prove my point of vindication for one and condemning another! Same old!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,981]

53 minutes ago, Indy said:

As always you prove my point of vindication for one and condemning another! Same old!

I clearly outlined the clear factual differences that show you likening one to the other is just nonsense. As always you prove that people who hate Israel will spout any specious and hyperbolic nonsense. Same old same old.

Russia seeks war and the conquest of its neighbours; all Israel has ever sought is to be left alone and has actively pursued normalised peaceful relations with its neighbours.

Edited July 11 by littleyellowbirdie

[ron obvious 1,610]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

As a general point I doubt anyone is particularly thrilled at children being killed in a war.  On the streets of London and other Western capitals we see demonstration after demonstration denouncing Israel but never any denouncing Russia.  

I don't think that applies to Hamas. In fact I'm sure it doesn't.

[Naturalcynic 817]

1 minute ago, ron obvious said:

I don't think that applies to Hamas. In fact I'm sure it doesn't.

Very good point, and almost certainly correct.

[Indy 3,413]

3 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I don't think that applies to Hamas. In fact I'm sure it doesn't.

Indeed Hamas are utterly disgusting human beings! If you can call them human beings! 

[Indy 3,413]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I clearly outlined the clear factual differences that show you likening one to the other is just nonsense. As always you prove that people who hate Israel will spout any specious and hyperbolic nonsense. Same old same old.

Russia seeks war and the conquest of its neighbours; all Israel has ever sought is to be left alone and has actively pursued normalised peaceful relations with its neighbours.

That’s not entirely true is it LYB, land grabs and mass eviction with killing over the years show that Israel don’t just want to be left alone! They’re not as innocent in all this as you wish to portray!

What most people want is to live a normal peaceful relations, it’s the extreme few who push us into these conflicts which innocent Israeli or Palestinians or Ukrainian or Russians are suffering! 

Edited July 11 by Indy

[littleyellowbirdie 2,981]

36 minutes ago, Indy said:

That’s not entirely true is it LYB, land grabs and mass eviction with killing over the years show that Israel don’t just want to be left alone! They’re not as innocent in all this as you wish to portray!

What most people want is to live a normal peaceful relations, it’s the extreme few who push us into these conflicts which innocent Israeli or Palestinians or Ukrainian or Russians are suffering! 

It's completely true. israel and Palestine is a very contained conflict with fault on both sides. Russia is an aggressor that has launched wars on many of its neighbours this century alone. Your comparison is just demented and shows you're just yet another with a deranged anti-Israeli prejudice trying to characterise them as evil when they're not.

Hell, I'm not even sure the Russians even get demonised half as much as the Israelis do. Russia launched its invasion on Ukraine and everyone was falling over themselves to defend keeping Russians in international sport and other competitions; the same can't be said for the way Israeli sports people were ostracised, or the Eurovision contestant was personally abused.

Sick of people spewing their anti-Israeli bigotry.

Edited July 11 by littleyellowbirdie