Where does money go?

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

47 minutes ago, Badger said:

Last time, it was Sheffield Utd who were the "best example" - and they went down the year after. In previous years it has been Stoke, Huddersfield, West Brom, Swansea, Middlesbrough. Where is the evidence that their model is "sustainable?"

All yo uwant to do is suggest that they stayed up, we should be like them without any real knowledge. Brentford's wages will be a lot lower than ours for a start, so should we pay our players yes moving forwards? Your view is that we offer too much in wages when w try to sign someone?

Can you show us the Brentford accounts that show they are paying less than a please. Also, hwhat happens to our "self funded" model if we do not get promoted again? Is that a good example of sustainable?

Thanks.

[Midlands Yellow 4,083]

14 minutes ago, Badger said:

Good.

May I suggest that you make it your priority before you comment again, so you know what you are talking about?

Cheeky! I take it you may still be on here come 10pm? 🤣

[Mello Yello 2,303]

Just now, Midlands Yellow said:

Cheeky! I take it you may still be on here come 10pm? 🤣

Patrolling, pontificating an' perpetually patronising posting on the Pink un is certainly a time consuming and arduous task....So give Brocky a break, he needs the odd refreshment and ablution time-outs, including some minutes to apply soothing salve to his plethora of butt sores he's unfortunately acquired from his real imitation leather pooter chair.....He'll still be here at 10pm....deffo....I'm sure Chicken will fill in for him in between shift slots.....

At 10pm I'll be on the lash in the City..... 🍻😉 

[TIL 1010 4,797]

5 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Patrolling, pontificating an' perpetually patronising posting on the Pink un is certainly a time consuming and arduous task....So give Brocky a break, he needs the odd refreshment and ablution time-outs, including some minutes to apply soothing salve to his plethora of butt sores he's unfortunately acquired from his real imitation leather pooter chair.....He'll still be here at 10pm....deffo....I'm sure Chicken will fill in for him in between shift slots.....

At 10pm I'll be on the lash in the City..... 🍻😉 

You mention Chicken but haven't you forgotten someone else ? 😜

[Mello Yello 2,303]

1 minute ago, TIL 1010 said:

You mention Chicken but haven't you forgotten someone else ? 😜

Too many to mention....they know who they are.....They hog the forum....

[Midlands Yellow 4,083]

27 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Patrolling, pontificating an' perpetually patronising posting on the Pink un is certainly a time consuming and arduous task....So give Brocky a break, he needs the odd refreshment and ablution time-outs, including some minutes to apply soothing salve to his plethora of butt sores he's unfortunately acquired from his real imitation leather pooter chair.....He'll still be here at 10pm....deffo....I'm sure Chicken will fill in for him in between shift slots.....

At 10pm I'll be on the lash in the City..... 🍻😉 

Berstrete Gates to kick the crawl off? 

[Mello Yello 2,303]

16 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Berstrete Gates to kick the crawl off? 

Gotta be the Glasshouse....It's Spoons an' I do love Spoons I enjoy the sticky floors...Cheap an' cheerful an' no airs an' graces or folk with pretentious plummy voices.....and with pullovers over their shoulders 'Yah Yah, absolutely Yah Yah!'.....

[Midlands Yellow 4,083]

17 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Gotta be the Glasshouse....It's Spoons an' I do love Spoons I enjoy the sticky floors...Cheap an' cheerful an' no airs an' graces or folk with pretentious plummy voices.....and with pullovers over their shoulders 'Yah Yah, absolutely Yah Yah!'.....

Try the Gates, no pumps just cans and bottles with a few optics. A pub for the connoisseur indeed and change out of a tenner when getting a decent round in. 

[Mello Yello 2,303]

3 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Try the Gates, no pumps just cans and bottles with a few optics. A pub for the connoisseur indeed and change out of a tenner when getting a decent round in. 

No rounds...Got no mates....I'm just a boring giffer....Coach an' Horses an' watch Boro versus Rouble Rovers in the FA Cup - then take it from there....'hic'....

[Badger 2,412]

1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Can you show us the Brentford accounts that show they are paying less than a please. Also, hwhat happens to our "self funded" model if we do not get promoted again? Is that a good example of sustainable?

Thanks.

Last two years accounts that are published - 20-21 due soon I think.

These show that Brentford spent £25.9 million and £18.9 million on wages. In our last two championship years we spent 66.6 million and 51.2 million. Because they don't have as many players signed at a higher level as we do they start from a lower base. Obviously even they don't know what this year's final wage bill will be as it will be performance related, but even with promotion bonuses it will be lower than ours. Sheffield United paid £11 million less in wages than City did the year they stayed up, even though they paid out staying up bonuses, for the same reason - more players signed at a lower level.

If we don't get  promoted again we will have to rely on player trading: it is part of the model as it is for other clubs. You might, for example, look at the Brentford figures included - their operating losses of  c£51 million were covered by profit on player sales of £52 million.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

55 minutes ago, Badger said:

Last two years accounts that are published - 20-21 due soon I think.

These show that Brentford spent £25.9 million and £18.9 million on wages. In our last two championship years we spent 66.6 million and 51.2 million. Because they don't have as many players signed at a higher level as we do they start from a lower base. Obviously even they don't know what this year's final wage bill will be as it will be performance related, but even with promotion bonuses it will be lower than ours. Sheffield United paid £11 million less in wages than City did the year they stayed up, even though they paid out staying up bonuses, for the same reason - more players signed at a lower level.

If we don't get  promoted again we will have to rely on player trading: it is part of the model as it is for other clubs. You might, for example, look at the Brentford figures included - their operating losses of  c£51 million were covered by profit on player sales of £52 million.

Indeed Badger. Though they kept their weapon in Toney and signed another in Eriksen. 

Enough to stay up.

Wages are typically the classic correlation, though surely this gives considerable weight to the weapons theory and the suicidal choice to sell Buendia pre-season and inability to sign or replace Skipp.

Surely what your analysis above shows is that we did exactly the opposite of what Webber himself stated, in that we did indeed ‘go for quantity over quality’

There is no hindsight here. This same analysis was made per-season. 

We both have insufficient money and have spent what we did have in mistaken fashion. Weapons are everything, not more of less. 

Parma

[Badger 2,412]

18 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Indeed Badger. Though they kept their weapon in Toney and signed another in Eriksen. 

Enough to stay up.

Wages are typically the classic correlation, though surely this gives considerable weight to the weapons theory and the suicidal choice to sell Buendia pre-season and inability to sign or replace Skipp.

Surely what your analysis above shows is that we did exactly the opposite of what Webber himself stated, in that we did indeed ‘go for quantity over quality’

There is no hindsight here. This same analysis was made per-season. 

We both have insufficient money and have spent what we did have in mistaken fashion. Weapons are everything, not more of less. 

Parma

Thanks Parma.

The decision to sell Buendia has been discussed so often and nobody is going to change their view. My own is that even if a player has time on his contract, if he refuses to play for you again, you face big problems in keeping him and it is not a great dynamic with which to start a major challenge. I would also say that although he is a fantastically talented player, and was great for us last season, he has hardly taken the premier league by storm - 3 goals and 11 assists in 62 starts, compared to Pukki's 19 goals and 5 assists. I know that far more detailed statistical analysis is necessary but on the face of it, Pukki was more of a weapon than Emi. And that is when Emi was happy - and we have all seen how he can sulk! Obviously we'd have been better of with a happy Buendia but as we have seen with Todd this year. we might not have been better of with an unhappy one.

Additionally, Teemu's stats are not much different to Ivan Toney's, so I'm not sure why he doesn't count as "a weapon." I think with better support, he would have exceeded Toney's output - he definitely looked like more of a threat in the brief period when he was played with Idah.

You can't argue with the fact that the signings haven't worked, that's obvious enough and I'm sure that they were hoping that they get more from Gilmour and Rashica in particular. I'm also suspect that they thought that they could win Todd round as well and that he would contribute. These could have been weapons, but unfortunately haven't.

My view FWIW, is that they looked at the previous premier season and concluded that we couldn't play the same way again, hence the change in formation+ (too?) big change in personnel. They tried to learn the lessons of last time: their diagnosis may have been correct but their solution has proven not to be. But since then we have never really managed to establish any style of play whatsoever. No doubt some will be scornful of my suspicion that some of the new players are better than they have looked thus far and that we have suffered from the opposite of synergy - there has been a discordancy which has resulted in players looking worse than they are. Then, of course, there is confidence...

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

Thanks Parma.

The decision to sell Buendia has been discussed so often and nobody is going to change their view. My own is that even if a player has time on his contract, if he refuses to play for you again, you face big problems in keeping him and it is not a great dynamic with which to start a major challenge. I would also say that although he is a fantastically talented player, and was great for us last season, he has hardly taken the premier league by storm - 3 goals and 11 assists in 62 starts, compared to Pukki's 19 goals and 5 assists. I know that far more detailed statistical analysis is necessary but on the face of it, Pukki was more of a weapon than Emi. And that is when Emi was happy - and we have all seen how he can sulk! Obviously we'd have been better of with a happy Buendia but as we have seen with Todd this year. we might not have been better of with an unhappy one.

Additionally, Teemu's stats are not much different to Ivan Toney's, so I'm not sure why he doesn't count as "a weapon." I think with better support, he would have exceeded Toney's output - he definitely looked like more of a threat in the brief period when he was played with Idah.

You can't argue with the fact that the signings haven't worked, that's obvious enough and I'm sure that they were hoping that they get more from Gilmour and Rashica in particular. I'm also suspect that they thought that they could win Todd round as well and that he would contribute. These could have been weapons, but unfortunately haven't.

My view FWIW, is that they looked at the previous premier season and concluded that we couldn't play the same way again, hence the change in formation+ (too?) big change in personnel. They tried to learn the lessons of last time: their diagnosis may have been correct but their solution has proven not to be. But since then we have never really managed to establish any style of play whatsoever. No doubt some will be scornful of my suspicion that some of the new players are better than they have looked thus far and that we have suffered from the opposite of synergy - there has been a discordancy which has resulted in players looking worse than they are. Then, of course, there is confidence...

What did all the other players feel when the club sold Buendia pre-season? 

What did this do to collective ‘confidence’?

There are - as you know - costs and costs….

Parma 

[hogesar 9,753]

4 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

Too many to mention....they know who they are.....They hog the forum....

And your parody posting didn't get old, outdated and verging on insanity approximately 8 years ago 🙂

Post something about our owners using a plane to travel. I dare you. Not had enough of it 

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,083]

51 minutes ago, hogesar said:

And your parody posting didn't get old, outdated and verging on insanity approximately 8 years ago 🙂

Post something about our owners using a plane to travel. I dare you. Not had enough of it 

 

Show Mello how it’s done Hoggy, hit us with some real wit. 

[Badger 2,412]

48 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Show Mello how it’s done Hoggy, hit us with some real wit. 

You promised me that you would be familiarising yourself with the accounts after work! 

[Midlands Yellow 4,083]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

You promised me that you would be familiarising yourself with the accounts after work! 

Easy shift Badger, can’t wait to read about accounts once I arrive home. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Midlands Yellow

[Badger 2,412]

29 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Easy shift Badger, can’t wait to read about accounts once I arrive home. 

https://files.canaries.co.uk/canaries/annual2021.pdf 

Have fun! 😃

[Midlands Yellow 4,083]

2 minutes ago, Badger said:

https://files.canaries.co.uk/canaries/annual2021.pdf 

Have fun! 😃

Aircraft hire and fuel cost is missing. 

[Mello Yello 2,303]

19 hours ago, hogesar said:

And your parody posting didn't get old, outdated and verging on insanity approximately 8 years ago 🙂

Post something about our owners using a plane to travel. I dare you. Not had enough of it 

 

Hiya! How's it going?....

[Mello Yello 2,303]

....That's a dirty fokker.....

[sgncfc 1,259]

On 19/03/2022 at 16:24, Badger said:

Thanks Parma.

The decision to sell Buendia has been discussed so often and nobody is going to change their view. My own is that even if a player has time on his contract, if he refuses to play for you again, you face big problems in keeping him and it is not a great dynamic with which to start a major challenge. I would also say that although he is a fantastically talented player, and was great for us last season, he has hardly taken the premier league by storm - 3 goals and 11 assists in 62 starts, compared to Pukki's 19 goals and 5 assists. I know that far more detailed statistical analysis is necessary but on the face of it, Pukki was more of a weapon than Emi. And that is when Emi was happy - and we have all seen how he can sulk! Obviously we'd have been better of with a happy Buendia but as we have seen with Todd this year. we might not have been better of with an unhappy one.

Additionally, Teemu's stats are not much different to Ivan Toney's, so I'm not sure why he doesn't count as "a weapon." I think with better support, he would have exceeded Toney's output - he definitely looked like more of a threat in the brief period when he was played with Idah.

You can't argue with the fact that the signings haven't worked, that's obvious enough and I'm sure that they were hoping that they get more from Gilmour and Rashica in particular. I'm also suspect that they thought that they could win Todd round as well and that he would contribute. These could have been weapons, but unfortunately haven't.

My view FWIW, is that they looked at the previous premier season and concluded that we couldn't play the same way again, hence the change in formation+ (too?) big change in personnel. They tried to learn the lessons of last time: their diagnosis may have been correct but their solution has proven not to be. But since then we have never really managed to establish any style of play whatsoever. No doubt some will be scornful of my suspicion that some of the new players are better than they have looked thus far and that we have suffered from the opposite of synergy - there has been a discordancy which has resulted in players looking worse than they are. Then, of course, there is confidence...

Interestingly, there are only 3 Norwich players in the "Worst PL X1 of the season so far" and they are Pukki, Rashica and Sargent.

[chicken 2,645]

On 18/03/2022 at 19:37, Badger said:

More than this I'm afraid - £52.7 million with a further 22.7 million dependant upon club/ player performance - so up to £75 million, but we probably won't have to pay the bonus for staying up this year. (There's always a bright side 😄)

There is a note in this years accounts (page 44).

Was that on solely this years transfers or also including the add ons for the likes of Hugill for promotion?

As you say, the add ons are hugely unlikely as the majority will be based upon survival and appearances at PL level I should think. 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,041]

On 18/03/2022 at 07:37, Dean Coneys boots said:

I’ve read that promotion to premiership is worth £170million. We have had that twice but lost some parachute payments so you can’t just double it. But nevertheless we have cleary raked in a lot of cash in last three years. 

We spent around £23 million this year - when sales are deducted from spend. We spent less than a million first time promoted. This equates to £12million for each promotion then. Not quite the high ambition sold to us fans. 
 

Obviously wages take a chunk…but it still begs a question - are we getting bang for our buck? How was there no money for January?  
 

People often say you don’t get it at once- but we must now be in receipt of first windfall at least. And there was big money made from Godfrey et al…yet still we seem unable to up the wages to premiership level. Any better fag packet accountants than me able to shed light?

 

Do try to keep up old chap, Delia walleted all the cash, before that I believe it was Watling, although I am sure others may correct me on that 😀😱...........

[Badger 2,412]

40 minutes ago, chicken said:

Was that on solely this years transfers or also including the add ons for the likes of Hugill for promotion?

As you say, the add ons are hugely unlikely as the majority will be based upon survival and appearances at PL level I should think. 

It was Giannoulis, Gibson, Gunn, PLM, Sargent, Tzolis and the loans. They were added as Post Balance Sheet events. These will be included in the 21-22 accounts.

Last season's purchases and loans had further payments due (a lot of which were promotion, I'm guessing) of £4.6 million, but these would have been included in the 20-21 accounts. 

[Chelm Canary 404]

On 18/03/2022 at 11:15, Bonzo said:

But don't worry they are very good a doing stuff for poor kids and the local community. Which is nice

40 - 100k a week to play a bit of football then turn up at a school or hospital for ten minutes then be praised in the local gazette as hero's. 

Akin to money bags Ed Sheeran running around Africa with starving children, asking for people to donate money when he's sitting on several hundred million. 

What a guy. 

 

 

[(Hoola)Han Solo 324]

19 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

40 - 100k a week to play a bit of football then turn up at a school or hospital for ten minutes then be praised in the local gazette as hero's. 

Akin to money bags Ed Sheeran running around Africa with starving children, asking for people to donate money when he's sitting on several hundred million. 

What a guy. 

 

 

I hope Sheeran didn’t perform any songs, those kids have it hard already 🥲