Playing or fannying around at the back?

[hogesar 9,799]

3 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

You're right. Why not pick Coventry? Or Millwall? But equally, why not pick West Brom or Cardiff?

You have excellent rhetorical skills, Hogesar. You are very good at using statistics which support your case and ignoring those which don't.

For example, a couple of your recent posts have pointed out that we won 'more points' under Smith than under Farke. One point, actually. Singular, not plural. Post after post talking about six wins in a row. Perfectly true, but no mention of how those wins were achieved. Similarly, your eulogies about his time at Brentford. Never any mention of where he actually finished three seasons in a row (midtable).

That makes you a good rhetorician. But at some point both you and I are going to have to face reality. Either Smith gets us up at the end of the season or he doesn't. And no amount of rhetorical skill will be able to argue for or against that.

Good read but generally nonsense because you didn't get the point of my post whatsoever.

Our performances haven't been Coventry every game neither have they been West Brom.

They've been somewhere in the middle. Awfully similar to our last two title wins under Farke. Only at this point, we are higher in the table with more points than at the same point in either of Farkes season.

Do I think Smith is a better championship manager than Farke? Nope. Do I think there's a chance he will, with Shakey, be less rigid should we get promoted again and amass more points than either of our last attempts? Yeah, I do. 

[canarybubbles 1,953]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Good read but generally nonsense because you didn't get the point of my post whatsoever.

Our performances haven't been Coventry every game neither have they been West Brom.

They've been somewhere in the middle. Awfully similar to our last two title wins under Farke. Only at this point, we are higher in the table with more points than at the same point in either of Farkes season.

Do I think Smith is a better championship manager than Farke? Nope. Do I think there's a chance he will, with Shakey, be less rigid should we get promoted again and amass more points than either of our last attempts? Yeah, I do. 

May I ask, what if he doesn't get us promoted? Would you be in favour of sticking with him?

[hogesar 9,799]

38 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

May I ask, what if he doesn't get us promoted? Would you be in favour of sticking with him?

Its hard to answer without context but say we scraped 6th and lost in the semi final then no, I wouldn't stick with him.

If we just missed out on autos, finished third and lost on penalties in the final having played really well in the second half of the season then I'd think he probably earnt another crack at it.

[canarybubbles 1,953]

23 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Its hard to answer without context but say we scraped 6th and lost in the semi final then no, I wouldn't stick with him.

If we just missed out on autos, finished third and lost on penalties in the final having played really well in the second half of the season then I'd think he probably earnt another crack at it.

Fair enough. I couldn't argue against that.

EDIT: Whatever happens, I hope it's clear. He gets us promoted with 90+ points or we don't make the playoffs. Much, much simpler.

Edited September 19, 2022 by canarybubbles

[Canary Jedi 590]

12 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

Pretty sure Smith has said he wants us to a pressing team that look to exploit the transition through speed.

If that’s true then here’s my take on the West Brom game.:

- West Brom press was superb, our defence had very little time on the ball and we’re regularly forced into mistakes. 
- Despite putting bodies into a press, West Brom always seemed to have walls of players behind if we ever managed to get the ball upfield

- Our press was ineffective. I laughed as Pukki was try to chase down 3 players on his own, ridiculous

- By transition he means counter attack, which means playing quick and accurate passes through to forwards. We rarely seemed to get it past West Brom’s front line

Apart from that, we were f’ing brilliant 🤪

The West Brom game has reinforced my belief that we will struggle against better teams (Brom’s league position is false).

We seem to be putting a lot of faith in the impact that Hayden will have. 

Homework (again) for the team:

- Wing play

- different options for getting the ball forward to keep opposition on their toes. In first half for example Sarge made a diagonal run which in the end was a diversion so Pukki could receive a dangerous pass. More of this please!

[By Hook or Ian crook 923]

I’m a bit old school in the fact that I’d like to get territory up the pitch before we play around with it. That being said I think the reality is we should be balanced between gaining territory and playing out from the back. Best to keep opposition on their toes not knowing if they should push up or not. 

[Canary Jedi 590]

Seems that our whole strategy relies on our centre backs being play makers, since they seem to have the most time on the ball.

Not many inspired passes coming from those two though. 

Crying out for a play maker in the middle of the park. I miss Wessi 😭 

[CDMullins 451]

Omabamidele and Hanley spend the games passing to each other so Smith (and the Statto's on here) can cite how great our passing accuracy is and use the possession stat to prove we have 'dominated' teams.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

3 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Omabamidele and Hanley spend the games passing to each other so Smith (and the Statto's on here) can cite how great our passing accuracy is and use the possession stat to prove we have 'dominated' teams.

Yeah, that’s why they do it 😂😂😂 it’s all a massive statspiracy

[nutty nigel 7,656]

I remember boos ringing around the stadium when this happened under Farke. Maybe it was worse or maybe fans like it better now?

[Canary Jedi 590]

43 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I remember boos ringing around the stadium when this happened under Farke. Maybe it was worse or maybe fans like it better now?

That was before we got used to seeing us pull opposition teams apart following that period of passing. Currently the endless passing usually results in the opposition pulling us apart!

[nutty nigel 7,656]

53 minutes ago, Canary Jedi said:

That was before we got used to seeing us pull opposition teams apart following that period of passing. Currently the endless passing usually results in the opposition pulling us apart!

Neither of those two extremes are true though.

[hogesar 9,799]

57 minutes ago, Canary Jedi said:

That was before we got used to seeing us pull opposition teams apart following that period of passing. Currently the endless passing usually results in the opposition pulling us apart!

Although we created enough chances to win two or even three games today so it's hard to see the consistency from those complaining.

[chicken 2,675]

On 06/03/2022 at 00:38, Canary Jedi said:

When we were playing Farke-ball in the Champ and dominating lessor teams it was a joy to watch. 

I was intrigued by this at one point so looked up the stats a bit. The two players with the largest numbers of passes at that time in that season were Gibson and Skipp. That being 2020-21.

So I made a point to watch them in a game a bit to see what happened and why they were getting more passes. Skipp dropped deep, received the ball from Gibson, exchanged the ball again, Skipp finds a midfielder square and forward it goes. Gibson would knock it to the left back, or to Hanley and get it back, pass it to Skipp who would sometimes lay it back to him to find the left back again.

In other words, it wasn't all that drastically different. It's just there was a flow to it at times that isn't quite happening as consistently as it does now. 

[chicken 2,675]

2 hours ago, CDMullins said:

Omabamidele and Hanley spend the games passing to each other so Smith (and the Statto's on here) can cite how great our passing accuracy is and use the possession stat to prove we have 'dominated' teams.

This would be a fantastic conspiracy theory... if it weren't for stats disproving it... 

Hanley has passed fewer times than McLean for example (using stats on infogol). Omobamidele has made more than McLean though... perhaps it's them that are passing between each other more?

As a sort of comparison, Gibbs has played around a quarter of the minutes that Omobamidele has and has around a quarter of the number of passes which suggests had he played in every game he would have been reaching a similar sort of number. Aarons also has more than Hanley, so if anything, the suggestion is that balls from big Andy are going to midfield and Aarons more than between Hanley and Omobamidele... 
 

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

Although we created enough chances to win two or even three games today so it's hard to see the consistency from those complaining.

We lost Hoggo, therefore it's a Results based business again, silly you.

[Canary Jedi 590]

8 hours ago, chicken said:

I was intrigued by this at one point so looked up the stats a bit. The two players with the largest numbers of passes at that time in that season were Gibson and Skipp. That being 2020-21.

So I made a point to watch them in a game a bit to see what happened and why they were getting more passes. Skipp dropped deep, received the ball from Gibson, exchanged the ball again, Skipp finds a midfielder square and forward it goes. Gibson would knock it to the left back, or to Hanley and get it back, pass it to Skipp who would sometimes lay it back to him to find the left back again.

In other words, it wasn't all that drastically different. It's just there was a flow to it at times that isn't quite happening as consistently as it does now. 

Thanks. Maybe to define what I mean by “fannying” I mean passing it around with no end product (or even worse, a goal/chance against us). What you’ve spotted is that after some passing there would be incisive forward passes. We did that yesterday in the first 15 mins or so. More of that please!

[CDMullins 451]

10 hours ago, chicken said:

This would be a fantastic conspiracy theory... if it weren't for stats disproving it... 

Hanley has passed fewer times than McLean for example (using stats on infogol). Omobamidele has made more than McLean though... perhaps it's them that are passing between each other more?

As a sort of comparison, Gibbs has played around a quarter of the minutes that Omobamidele has and has around a quarter of the number of passes which suggests had he played in every game he would have been reaching a similar sort of number. Aarons also has more than Hanley, so if anything, the suggestion is that balls from big Andy are going to midfield and Aarons more than between Hanley and Omobamidele... 
 

Imagine actually finding stats to disprove a tongue in cheek comment,

You need a more productive hobby buddy.

[chicken 2,675]

31 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Imagine actually finding stats to disprove a tongue in cheek comment,

You need a more productive hobby buddy.

Hard to know what is tongue in cheek on here these days... I have plenty of productive hobbies though, thanks for the concern. 😄

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

45 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Imagine actually finding stats to disprove a tongue in cheek comment,

You need a more productive hobby buddy.

Is that the old ' I was only kidding' .🤷😇

[Canary Jedi 590]

On 06/03/2022 at 00:38, Canary Jedi said:

 

When we were playing Farke-ball in the Champ and dominating lessor teams it was a joy to watch. 

Fast forward to now. Passing the ball sideways at the back, eventually goes back to the keeper who hoofs it long and we loose possession. It really seems like the team don’t know how to break down the opposition. 

Serious question - what is the measure of success with this style of football? Can we really expect to dominate at this level and carve teams open? We don’t have a Hoolahan or Maddison any more to run at teams and carve them open to create chances. What is this style of football realistically hoping to achieve?

What’s our “elevator pitch” to describe the attacking threat we are trying to achieve?

I’m hoping it’s just me that’s lost my way. Right now it seems like the team has lost its way also 😢

I literally could have written this today let alone 1 year ago. If the end result was a shot I’d go with it, but we hardly threatened. SUNDERLAND READ US LIKE A BOOK AND THERE WAS NO PLAN B.

Definitely feeling more positive about life under Wagner, but honestly we are the architects of our own downfall at times. Gibson passing the ball sideways out for a corner was a classic!

When will we learn?

[Myra Hawtree 127]

Agree the endless sideways and backwards achieve nothing.  Why doesn’t Gunn give a quick throw and get us on attack rather than wait until the opposition are all back in position.  So frustrating and asking for trouble.  Even when we have a throw in an attacking position it usually ends up at the back again.

Patrick Roberts seemed out to impress with some good runs.  We discarded him.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I find it strange that our two most cumbersome players get more touches than our good players.

[Canary Jedi 590]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I find it strange that our two most cumbersome players get more touches than our good players.

Exactly. That’s why McLean has to drop back. Would be interesting to see a breakdown of our possession by individual player. I think you’re right than Hanley and Gibson would be the highest

[Capt. Pants 4,323]

Comedy moment when Gibson passes the ball out for a corner. In fairness to him our midfield were totally inept.

The problem Wagner has is that we don't have the players to play the system he wants.

We're probably 4 players light; CH DM, Winger, Striker.

[CANARYKING 644]

Too many attack minded mid fielders today, apart from McLean no one showed for the ball 

[Canary Jedi 590]

1 hour ago, CANARYKING said:

Too many attack minded mid fielders today, apart from McLean no one showed for the ball 

In the old days the centre backs would try to find a pass to Hoolahan or later Maddison and later still Buendia. They would then try to make some magic happen. 

[Canary Jedi 590]

Never mind me as a casual fan, this is what Tony Monday has to say:

“Norwich are a really good team,” he said, “and yet they do build from the back and give every team a chance to try and nick it off them as they’re building.

“The challenge for all teams like Norwich in my mind is: do you keep doubling down and try to get better at building and keep doing it?

“There’s no one way to play football, and yet Norwich give you a chance to press them, and if you nick it off them 30 yards from goal, you’re generally one pass away from banging it in their net.

“If you look at the data of Norwich this season, I think they’ve lost the most goals from mistakes from their defenders. So our plan was to play high press, let’s see if they make a mistake today, and we can capitalise on it.

“When we do, we can be solid and make it really hard for them and set if they can get through us, but we can break away and score again.”

[nutty nigel 7,656]

4 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

Never mind me as a casual fan, this is what Tony Monday has to say:

“Norwich are a really good team,” he said, “and yet they do build from the back and give every team a chance to try and nick it off them as they’re building.

“The challenge for all teams like Norwich in my mind is: do you keep doubling down and try to get better at building and keep doing it?

“There’s no one way to play football, and yet Norwich give you a chance to press them, and if you nick it off them 30 yards from goal, you’re generally one pass away from banging it in their net.

“If you look at the data of Norwich this season, I think they’ve lost the most goals from mistakes from their defenders. So our plan was to play high press, let’s see if they make a mistake today, and we can capitalise on it.

“When we do, we can be solid and make it really hard for them and set if they can get through us, but we can break away and score again.

Yes this is true. We all see it. But the question it doesn't answer is would we be better if we were more direct and lost the ball further up the pitch?

All you can say is that we wouldn't lose the ball so often 30 yards from our goal. You couldn't say if we'd have more points. It would be interesting to know how many goals we score building from the back. 

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

6 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

Never mind me as a casual fan, this is what Tony Monday has to say:

“Norwich are a really good team,” he said, “and yet they do build from the back and give every team a chance to try and nick it off them as they’re building.

“The challenge for all teams like Norwich in my mind is: do you keep doubling down and try to get better at building and keep doing it?

“There’s no one way to play football, and yet Norwich give you a chance to press them, and if you nick it off them 30 yards from goal, you’re generally one pass away from banging it in their net.

“If you look at the data of Norwich this season, I think they’ve lost the most goals from mistakes from their defenders. So our plan was to play high press, let’s see if they make a mistake today, and we can capitalise on it.

“When we do, we can be solid and make it really hard for them and set if they can get through us, but we can break away and score again.”

I don't like Mondays, tell me why, but I like Melton Mowbray.

Edited March 14, 2023 by keelansgrandad