Norwich City supporting LGBTQ+ History month

[cornish sam 966]

2 hours ago, randy.stand said:

I don’t usually post on here, I’m a Villa fan and I generally browse some other clubs pages from time to time. Happy Deano has recently found some form for you, what a guy. Love Deano.

The reason why I wanted to post this morning was on this very topic. I read some of the comments in this thread and it saddened me to be honest. I don’t think some of you possibly realise the bigger picture and the repercussions of some of your words. 

I’m a 29 year old, gay male. A football addict. Just your usual standard guy, not camp or living up to any gay stereotypes. I’m just a bloke who is attracted to the same sex. That’s all. I’ll start with the first comment I came across in here and probably in jest but I thought I’d tell you how I felt about it. It was the comment about ‘getting drag queens on the pitch at half time’. Now that I’m assuming is in jest, and it wouldn’t hurt me, but why the need? Do we have to continuously stereotype? Why do you think all gay men enjoy that camp’ness, drag queens etc? Most Straight guys in the stadium wouldn’t enjoy that, why would you automatically think the gay supporters would?

Secondly, people saying ‘homophobia isn’t so much a problem anymore’. Your right it isn’t like it was back in the 70’s etc but I have to take issue with this. When you have homophobic attacks happening in city centres each and every week, no footballer and very limited sporting professionals feeling unable to be themselves, other countries still classifying being gay as illegal and killing people for the like, then it is still clearly a problem and just because progress has been made, it doesn’t mean people should stop fighting for equality.

And lastly I just want to share my story and feelings with you. So as I said, i’m 29. I’m a senior Nurse Matron in the NHS, from Birmingham and I adore my football. I started going to the Villa in the late 90’s and have been home & away every week for some years. When I was in my late teens I realised there was something different with me compared to others, I liked guys rather than girls. I struggled with this for so long, hated myself for it, wanted to get rid of that part of me. I didn’t feel the courage to come out to my family or friends til I was 21, even though I realised when I was 16 or so. I’m the gay world, explaining to other guys you liked football was so taboo and was a source of constant frustration for me. Obviously as life moves forward your friendship group changes and in the last few years I developed a new friendship group who I go on all the away days with. I eventually came out to them as well which was difficult but they’ve all been supportive. But the footballing arena is such a scary place to do this. The friendly lad banter you hear on the coach or on the terraces, the little remarks of ‘Your so gay’ etc- just think how that can make someone who is already fragile in their own head space feel. When you finally do come out and you get asked questions about your sex life on a coach in front of everyone else, like your a circus clown providing some entertainment. As a gay person, you come out multiple times each year as the attitude is still regarding being straight and the questions thrown at you such as ‘Have you got a girlfriend’. I am probably now at the point when I don’t care what people think or say anymore, but it’s taken such a long time to get there. You may think it isn’t an issue, but your blind sighted to it. If you was in the position, you’d hear so much more which can be deemed as poor taste.

Some people think it’s banter, but for someone who has struggled with it all, it’s much more than that. I know some of you won’t agree with me or understand me, and that’s ok. But I just ask be mindful of what you say, be mindful of who’s around you, who may be struggling inside with their sexuality, who may just want to be a normal guy going to the football who doesn’t wish for their sexuality to be judged, they just want to watch their team and have a beer. The world has evolved, football is slowly getting better but it isn’t all rosy in that garden just yet. 
 

all the best for the rest of the season and look after our Deano!

Thanks for this. Hopefully this will highlight to many the continues importance of this kind of thing and that homophobia/transphobia isn't just a case of direct abuse or harmful stereotyping of the type that some on here have entered into....

[cornish sam 966]

7 hours ago, Tzol Machine said:

My argument was more againts the TQ+ part and not so much about homosexuality, 

Also if you enjoy taking it in the bottox thats no one's business but yours i really dont give a ****, however why do we need to celebrate monsters, pedophiles and psychos who try to influence our youth? Where are the fathers, where are the mothers, uncles, aunts, cousins?? 

We pay so much taxes, our families are divided we barely see our kids because they go to school most of the day. 

But hey you know what, screw all that lets all celebrate transsexuality because that is whats missing in our lifes. 

While some on here are clearly trolling, this is nothing more than bigotted ignorance. Are you seriously trying to claim that trans people are "monsters, paedophiles and psychos" who are trying to convert people into being trans?!?

Out of all the myriad of depressing, ignorant and stupid things I have read on this board over many, many years, this has to take top spot!

[Mackrel829 21]

20 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Can someone explain privilege to this self justifying moron?

Hate to break it to you but if you believe that someone is inherently privileged or inherently oppressed simply because of the colour of their skin then that's racism too.

Dismissing opinions and perspectives based entirely on skin colour, sexuality, or class is ignorant and dangerous. If that's what you like to do then so be it. Just be self-aware enough to understand that you're the bigot.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,809]

15 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

You're playing handball with a haystack there Cambridgeo, youll never come across a more ignorant cretin.

Cheer up buddy, was quite clearly a joke. Besides, I CAN be far more ignorant. Just try me!😂

[king canary 7,679]

11 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Gammon doesn't specifically attack white people, it specifically targets a subset of white people, it's not racist, merely descriptive. If you went around calling all caucasions honky, that would be racist

I haven't seen a 'gammon is a racial slur' in the wild for ages, thought people had given up that stupid argument.

[cornish sam 966]

11 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

Hate to break it to you but if you believe that someone is inherently privileged or inherently oppressed simply because of the colour of their skin then that's racism too.

Dismissing opinions and perspectives based entirely on skin colour, sexuality, or class is ignorant and dangerous. If that's what you like to do then so be it. Just be self-aware enough to understand that you're the bigot.

Hate to break it to you, but people are inherently privileged because of the colour of their skin in our society. True it is more prevalent in the states, but, white privilege is a real and measurable thing.

 

[The Bristol Nest 517]

14 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

Hate to break it to you but if you believe that someone is inherently privileged or inherently oppressed simply because of the colour of their skin then that's racism too.

Dismissing opinions and perspectives based entirely on skin colour, sexuality, or class is ignorant and dangerous. If that's what you like to do then so be it. Just understand that I,M the bigot.

Corrected.😉

[Mackrel829 21]

34 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Corrected.😉

Good one.

🙄

[Mackrel829 21]

36 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Hate to break it to you, but people are inherently privileged because of the colour of their skin in our society. True it is more prevalent in the states, but, white privilege is a real and measurable thing.

 

And how do you measure white privilege exactly?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,809]

4 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

And how do you measure white privilege exactly?

Do you get stared at and followed by shopkeepers and security the second you walk into a shop? Do you get pulled over all the time for 'routine stops' by the police when your white friends don't? Lots of stories just like this one, had a few black friends in my time and some of the things they would say, hooo boy

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

8 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

And how do you measure white privilege exactly?

Social Inequalities Explained in a $100 Race - Please Watch to the End. Thanks. - YouTube

 

[cornish sam 966]

14 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

And how do you measure white privilege exactly?

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20160915-should-you-change-your-name-to-get-a-job

This links to numerous studies into it (though it appears that some of the links may be dead or locked)

Edited February 3, 2022 by cornish sam

[Mackrel829 21]

13 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Do you get stared at and followed by shopkeepers and security the second you walk into a shop? Do you get pulled over all the time for 'routine stops' by the police when your white friends don't? Lots of stories just like this one, had a few black friends in my time and some of the things they would say, hooo boy

This is mostly anecdotal and not really measurable. You can certainly measure racial profiling through stop and search, etc., and the numbers don't make for great reading iirc, but even that is an extremely superficial - almost unilateral - analysis of what might be going on. It certainly doesn't indicate a widespread societal privilege.

6 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20160915-should-you-change-your-name-to-get-a-job

This links to numerous studies into it (though it appears that some of the links may be dead or locked)

So this would measure more personal, individual biases than 'white privilege'. You'll notice that the first example that the article provides is of a man who 'didn't look Chinese enough'. The article also goes on to explain that all human beings - not just white people - tend to have biases towards others like them. I suppose there are more white people on the planet than any other race but that's not really what we're talking about. This doesn't really measure white privilege in any way.

This idea of white privilege really strikes me as bizarre when you look at the statistics around education. White working class boys are the least likely to succeed according to almost every metric. They achieve at lower rates at every stage, they leave with fewer qualifications, and they go onto higher education at a lower rate. 

The term 'white privilege' implies a pervasive societal advantage yet it's literally white people that are most likely to trip at the first hurdle?

[wcorkcanary 4,340]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Cheer up buddy, was quite clearly a joke. Besides, I CAN be far more ignorant. Just try me!😂

I get that it was a joke, but hes the kind of ignoramus that if you stoop to his level of trolling, I pity you. You are an amusing, self effacing poster, he is not. Anyone can be an A hole , he wjns the prize.

[horsefly 4,318]

1 hour ago, Mackrel829 said:

And how do you measure white privilege exactly?

I guess you could just read one or two of the tens of thousands of books and articles written by academics who have bothered to research the issues, and base their conclusions about white privilege on the evidence. But I suspect you wouldn't want to bother yourself with that.

[Mackrel829 21]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I guess you could just read one or two of the tens of thousands of books and articles written by academics who have bothered to research the issues, and base their conclusions about white privilege on the evidence. But I suspect you wouldn't want to bother yourself with that.

Give me a link to one of the tens of thousands of books that demonstrate the existence of white privilege.

[horsefly 4,318]

2 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

Give me a link to one of the tens of thousands of books that demonstrate the existence of white privilege.

Entirely pointless given your standard Trumpian refusal to engage with any arguments, but nonetheless I will recommend Reni Eddo-Lodge's "Why I'm no Longer Talking to White People about Race". It would be particular relevant to someone like you, but I suspect that will be precisely the reason you won't read it.

[A Load of Squit 5,221]

7 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

Give me a link to one of the tens of thousands of books that demonstrate the existence of white privilege.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=white+privilege+book&crid=8MKGFQIR9BT8&sprefix=white+privi%2Caps%2C418&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_11

Take your pick.

[horsefly 4,318]

47 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

 

This idea of white privilege really strikes me as bizarre when you look at the statistics around education. White working class boys are the least likely to succeed according to almost every metric. They achieve at lower rates at every stage, they leave with fewer qualifications, and they go onto higher education at a lower rate. 

The term 'white privilege' implies a pervasive societal advantage yet it's literally white people that are most likely to trip at the first hurdle?

Oh dear! The standard example moronically trotted out by someone desperate to claim that accepting white privilege is real means you have to falsely claim there are not other forms of disadvantage at work too (e.g. class prejudice). Almost too ridiculous to have to point out that white privilege exists amongst many other forms of privilege that disadvantage those from a variety of disadvantaged backgrounds.

[Herman 9,829]

2 hours ago, cornish sam said:

Gammon doesn't specifically attack white people, it specifically targets a subset of white people, it's not racist, merely descriptive. If you went around calling all caucasions honky, that would be racist

Agree with most of your sentiment but being gammon is race free although it did start thanks to bright pink, rabid, old white men. 

[wcorkcanary 4,340]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

Agree with most of your sentiment but being gammon is race free although it did start thanks to bright pink, rabid, old white men. 

Black Gammon is available at specialist producers. Pigs can have black skin too. Just depends on the breeding , just like ourselves.

[Mackrel829 21]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Oh dear! The standard example moronically trotted out by someone desperate to claim that accepting white privilege is real means you have to falsely claim there are not other forms of disadvantage at work too (e.g. class prejudice). Almost too ridiculous to have to point out that white privilege exists amongst many other forms of privilege that disadvantage those from a variety of disadvantaged backgrounds.

No this is the entire point.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being white. Sometimes people advantaged by being black.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being men. Sometimes people are advantaged by being women.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being straight. Sometimes people are advantaged by being gay.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being rich. Sometimes people are advantaged by being poor.

The whole ideology of 'white privilege' itself is a false claim that there are not other forms of advantage/disadvantage at work.

[horsefly 4,318]

1 minute ago, Mackrel829 said:

No this is the entire point.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being white. Sometimes people advantaged by being black.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being men. Sometimes people are advantaged by being women.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being straight. Sometimes people are advantaged by being gay.

Sometimes people are advantaged by being rich. Sometimes people are advantaged by being poor.

The whole ideology of 'white privilege' itself is a false claim that there are not other forms of advantage/disadvantage at work.

Christ! Is that your genuine "considered" response? It really is pointless people directing you to the vast literature on the issue. You don't have the slightest intention of reading it if that's the inane level of response you feel impelled to state in public.

[Mackrel829 21]

24 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Entirely pointless given your standard Trumpian refusal to engage with any arguments, but nonetheless I will recommend Reni Eddo-Lodge's "Why I'm no Longer Talking to White People about Race". It would be particular relevant to someone like you, but I suspect that will be precisely the reason you won't read it.

Aka: 'Why I'm Refusing to Engage With an Entire Group of People Based Entirely on the Colour of Their Skin'.

Yeah that doesn't illustrate my point perfectly...

😂

[cornish sam 966]

6 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

Aka: 'Why I'm Refusing to Engage With an Entire Group of People Based Entirely on the Colour of Their Skin'.

Yeah that doesn't illustrate my point perfectly...

😂

Try reading it. Essentially you can only hit your head against a brick wall so many times so instead they wrote it down.

[king canary 7,679]

19 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

Aka: 'Why I'm Refusing to Engage With an Entire Group of People Based Entirely on the Colour of Their Skin'.

Yeah that doesn't illustrate my point perfectly...

😂

The fact you think it does based on its title and nothing else just exposes how deeply shallow your argument is.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

8 minutes ago, Mackrel829 said:

Aka: 'Why I'm Refusing to Engage With an Entire Group of People Based Entirely on the Colour of Their Skin'.

Yeah that doesn't illustrate my point perfectly...

😂

There have been countless studies showing that you (& me) are more likely to get better jobs, be picked up and searched less for crimes that we may or may not have committed. I will give a specific example, In London I ran a large Record Store, I had the same car as a member of my staff. We were both about the same age. He would get stopped monthly by the police randomly, I never did. That is 100% white privilege.

In the report about the Met Police force & its "banter" were any of the findings, about the systematic abuse of white people? Have a read...

I read an article that had a very bright couple of friends winning a place into Oxford. One approached the authorities about digs...no problem, one was questioned whether she meant "The Oxford"... why because they didn't think a black person like herself would be going to Oxford. White privilege.

There are numerous studies / examples you just need to find them. Then read them and educate yourself as I did. It's real & it exists. Any amount of denial won't change that or make it better.

Lastly. white privilege isn't making you responsible or signalling you out for what has happened. It's not saying all white men are racist or bad, its just pointing out how society has developed. Just think,  you could be a positive for change.

 

 

[canarybubbles 1,946]

I'm joining this discussion as an out gay man, but at the other end of life from the Villa guy. At my age, you simply give up arguing with bigots because you know they will never change. They love their bigotry; it is part of their identity, and they will go to their grave clutching it to their hearts. For whatever psychological reasons, they need someone to hate. But in my experience this kind of bigot is a small minority - most people are willing to listen and change their ideas, especially if it comes from personal experience (e.g. they meet and like someone from a group who they have previously stereotyped and disliked).

The people who are saying there is no such thing as white privilege really don't want to look at the evidence. There are countless studies which show that a white man in the UK is advantaged in real, everyday terms compared, say, to a black woman. On average. This doesn't mean that this is universal: as people have said, class is a hugely important determinant and can override discrimination on the basis of colour or gender. Nearly all of us are simultaneously members of privileged groups and disadvantaged groups, so real life is far from simple. But that doesn't mean that privilege and discrimination are not real.

As for Tzol Machine, you talk a lot about logic and critical thinking, but I can't see any of either in your contributions to this thread.

Edited February 3, 2022 by canarybubbles

[horsefly 4,318]

1 hour ago, Mackrel829 said:

Aka: 'Why I'm Refusing to Engage With an Entire Group of People Based Entirely on the Colour of Their Skin'.

Yeah that doesn't illustrate my point perfectly...

😂

Proof that you can't even be bothered to google the book to see why he chose that title. If you had you wouldn't have just posted that utterly moronic response. What a buffoon!

[TheGunnShow 6,016]

1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

There have been countless studies showing that you (& me) are more likely to get better jobs, be picked up and searched less for crimes that we may or may not have committed. I will give a specific example, In London I ran a large Record Store, I had the same car as a member of my staff. We were both about the same age. He would get stopped monthly by the police randomly, I never did. That is 100% white privilege.

In the report about the Met Police force & its "banter" were any of the findings, about the systematic abuse of white people? Have a read...

I read an article that had a very bright couple of friends winning a place into Oxford. One approached the authorities about digs...no problem, one was questioned whether she meant "The Oxford"... why because they didn't think a black person like herself would be going to Oxford. White privilege.

There are numerous studies / examples you just need to find them. Then read them and educate yourself as I did. It's real & it exists. Any amount of denial won't change that or make it better.

Lastly. white privilege isn't making you responsible or signalling you out for what has happened. It's not saying all white men are racist or bad, its just pointing out how society has developed. Just think,  you could be a positive for change.

 

 

I think the bit in bold is where some - even though they make honest efforts to be not racist at all, and I could readily believe them if they said it - trip up. They seem to think it's making them responsible, when in reality it's something we have the fortune to enjoy as a side-effect.

In essence, taking something personally when there is no need.