Kabul to fall

[Van wink 2,994]

WTF are we doing

[Thirsty Lizard 3,183]

36 minutes ago, Van wink said:

WTF are we doing

Yet another disastrous f*ck up by Donald Trump. 

[Mark .Y. 352]

5 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Yet another disastrous f*ck up by Donald Trump. 

A bit longer than him I think

[Thirsty Lizard 3,183]

32 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

A bit longer than him I think

Trump is the one who made the deal with the Taliban to remove American and foreign troops from the country. Apparently the Taliban told the fat, orange one that they would play nice if foreign troops were removed, and being an intelligent sort he believed them! 

[KiwiScot 1,460]

Biden's not reversed it though and maybe Trump would have gone back if he was in charge(doubt it)

More the point to me is how sad it is for the people of that country in general who have had decades and decades of civil war and restrictive goverments to have had this false hope put upon them to be taken away by the Taliban. Clearly nobody gave a ****(Me included) by leaving the Taliban enough alone to bide their time and bulid a force capable of taking back the country

[Well b back 3,274]

Boris Johnson has said the UK can be "extremely proud" of its role in Afghanistan, despite the situation in the country having "deteriorated".

[Barbe bleu 832]

.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[Mark .Y. 352]

10 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Trump is the one who made the deal with the Taliban to remove American and foreign troops from the country. Apparently the Taliban told the fat, orange one that they would play nice if foreign troops were removed, and being an intelligent sort he believed them! 

The country has been a mess for many years. 

He may have believed the Taliban but I think it is far more likely that he just wanted to bring US troops home and the pretence of believing them gave him the excuse to do that. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Mark .Y.

[Herman 9,820]

Trillions spent, thousands of lives lost and back to square one. What an absolute waste. And if I was one of the troops that fought out there I'd be livid at this failure.

[Van wink 2,994]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Trillions spent, thousands of lives lost and back to square one. What an absolute waste. And if I was one of the troops that fought out there I'd be livid at this failure.

Young people, particularly young women, living lives that we would consider to be “ normal” with many of the freedoms and opportunities we enjoy are going to be dragged into a medieval nightmare, it’s hard to contemplate. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Van wink

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Mark .Y. said:

The country has been a mess for many years. 

He may have believed the Taliban but I think it is far more likely that he just wanted to bring US troops home and the pretence of believing them gave him the excuse to do that. 

It’s impossible to predict what Trump would have done in any set of circumstances, indeed presented with the same circumstances on two different days of the week he could well have made opposite decisions, total nutter. Hugely disappointing to hear some of the stuff that Biden has been saying however in his effort to defend what is happening now, and BJ commenting as above. The whole thing is yet another **** stain on the West!

[horsefly 4,310]

It really doesn't help having Boris try to sugar this catastrophe by telling us that we can be proud that the UK military presence enabled many women to get an education in the last 20 years. The fact that they will now be publicly flogged or executed for showing any sign of that education is hardly a cause for disingenuous triumphalism. At least some Tories (e.g. Tom Tugendhat) and military leaders have had the guts to call out the craven withdrawal by the US and UK forces for what it is, an utter betrayal of the Afghan people, and the military personel who fought and died there, or live with the physical and mental scars of their service.  

[horsefly 4,310]

13 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Trump is the one who made the deal with the Taliban to remove American and foreign troops from the country. Apparently the Taliban told the fat, orange one that they would play nice if foreign troops were removed, and being an intelligent sort he believed them! 

Indeed! Although I think Trump's responsibility for this almighty tragedy is even more egregious than this. Remember, he came to power on the MAGA mantra, and a key pillar of that was his promise of "America first". That promise was cashed out as a commitment to withdraw American troops from military engagements around the world. No longer would the USA act as the policeman of democracy on the world stage under a Trump administration.

So, the man who described himself as the master of "the art of the deal", went into negotiations with the Taliban having already declared that irrespective of what the Taliban agrees or does, US troops would be leaving Afghanistan anyway. From that moment the Taliban knew that power was being returned to it, with only an enfeebled Afghan army to sweep aside. No surprise then that new recruits flooded to swell the Taliban ranks, and now we see the Afghan National Army drop their weapons and flee. 

As historians calculate the number of deaths for which Trump's policies are largely responsible (Covid, etc), expect the deaths of innocent Afghanis to figure significantly among that number.

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

Its incredibly sad.

Either we should have taken out Bin Laden and the Taliban as we originally did quite successfully and then promptly leave (no false nation building promises) or we stay as long as needed until the Taliban are simply irrelevant and the country becomes a quasi modern stable state not the tribal mediaeval opium growing basket case state it looks likely to become again .

The Russians tried and failed, the USA tried and failed - I suspect the Chinese (who have a border) if called upon might by necessity be a tad more more ruthless with the Taliban if they cause any trouble!

Edited August 14, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[Van wink 2,994]

6 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Its incredibly sad.

Either we should have taken out Bin Laden and the Taliban as we originally did quite successfully and then promptly leave (no false nation building promises) or we stay as long as needed until the Taliban are simply irrelevant and the country becomes a quasi modern stable state not the tribal mediaeval opium growing basket case state it looks likely to become again .

The Russians tried and failed, the USA tried and failed - I suspect the Chinese (who have a border) if called upon might by necessity be a tad more more ruthless with the Taliban if they cause any trouble!

What makes it even worse from what I have read, and I’m sure this isn’t the full story but nevertheless must have some validity, is if we had continued just to provide air cover for the the Afghan forces, and left it at that they would probably have been able to prevent most of this land grab.

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

10 minutes ago, Van wink said:

What makes it even worse from what I have read, and I’m sure this isn’t the full story but nevertheless must have some validity, is if we had continued just to provide air cover for the the Afghan forces, and left it at that they would probably have been able to prevent most of this land grab.

It's been political imperative in the US to end the war for several administrations and get out. Trump the fool made the howler of giving the Taliban credibility (c.f. N. Korea too) and Biden can see that if he just follows through on Trump's 'plan'  the heat will pass and the blame rightly fall back to Trump.

My bigger question is that it show the stupidity of the UK being the USA's poodle as we have no say in the big political following decisions. No independent action. We could, if we so wished, actually stay / reinforce ourselves and sort the Taliban out with our UN friends.    

Edited August 14, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[cambridgeshire canary 6,788]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

It's been political imperative in the US to end the war for several administrations and get out. Trump the fool made the howler of giving the Taliban credibility (c.f. N. Korea too) and Biden can see that if he just follows through on Trump's 'plan'  the heat will pass and the blame rightly fall back to Trump.

My bigger question is that it show the stupidity of the UK being the USA's poodle as we have no say in the big political following decisions. No independent action. We could, if we so wished, actually stay / reinforce ourselves and sort the Taliban out with our UN friends.    

To be fair would you rather let thousands of men, women and child die pointless deaths in a pointless endless bloody war or try and put an end to it? Don't like Trump as much as anyone but end of the day you will never defeat the Taliban with war and violence.

[Van wink 2,994]

A good article by Jon Sopel

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58195336

 

 

[A Load of Squit 5,213]

On 14/08/2021 at 07:33, Van wink said:

Young people, particularly young women, living lives that we would consider to be “ normal” with many of the freedoms and opportunities we enjoy are going to be dragged into a medieval nightmare, it’s hard to contemplate. 

When, in the next few weeks or months, refugees from the region turn up on our shores I hope people don't forget what is happening and how we were involved.

 

[Van wink 2,994]

9 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

When, in the next few weeks or months, refugees from the region turn up on our shores I hope people don't forget what is happening and how we were involved.

 

Looks like some European Countries have continued with forced deportations of Afghan refugees, I would hope that we grant some form of special status, I won’t hold my breath though.

[horsefly 4,310]

47 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Looks like some European Countries have continued with forced deportations of Afghan refugees, I would hope that we grant some form of special status, I won’t hold my breath though.

Indeed you shouldn't! We have actually told Afghan students that had guaranteed places at UK universities that they can no longer come here as the staff required to process their applications have been evacuated from Kabul. This is truely one of the most shameful episodes of our modern history. A devastatingly depressing state of affairs probably best captured by the advice to the women of Afghanistan to go into hiding. 

[horsefly 4,310]

Tom Tugendhat, with typical integrity and clarity yet again just nailed it on Sky news. An utter disaster.

Just to add, Tim Marshall gives an excellent analysis following on from Tugendhat (worth watching if it gets posted on their site).

Edited August 15, 2021 by horsefly

[cambridgeshire canary 6,788]

Taliban heading to the official government peace rooms for discussions with the Afghanistan government about a 

 

'Peaceful transfer of power'

 

... And there it is

[Well b back 3,274]

Looks like it’s almost fallen as Taliban enter Kabul

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58222066

[horsefly 4,310]

A defeat that rivals the Vietnam War for the craven and shameless ignominy of its multiple failures of the people of a foreign country. Islamic fundamentalism has just taken a very major boost and no doubt the West will reap a nasty harvest in increased terrorism as a result.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

455 UK military deaths plus countless horrific injuries.

We gave hope to Afghan women and now we have put them back into medieval times.

Lions led by Lambs.

[Herman 9,820]

Speeding into action.

 

[Van wink 2,994]

What amazes me is the air of apparent surprise by world leaders that things had happened so fast, what did they really think would happen if you take away air support from the the Afghan army. A shameful, shameful event.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,788]

It's over.

[Herman 9,820]

I think there may be a rare consensus on the Pink Un about this.