Kabul to fall

[Van wink 2,994]

3 hours ago, Surfer said:

How so? 

There's a fine line between courage and foolhardiness, which IMO Biden has crossed. I wouldn't be surprised if Kamala is parachuted in faster than even she had planned.

[Surfer 1,547]

48 minutes ago, Van wink said:

There's a fine line between courage and foolhardiness, which IMO Biden has crossed. I wouldn't be surprised if Kamala is parachuted in faster than even she had planned.

The second sentence is nonsense, she is VP he is President half a year into his first term.

Now why do you think he has been foolhardy?

His Covid response, rescuing the American economy, adhering to his predecessors agreement to withdraw from Afghanistan?

[Yellow Fever 3,873]

How on earth did we get into the position where the Taliban, yes the Taliban, are dictating terms for 'our' withdrawal?

[KiwiScot 1,505]

12 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

How on earth did we get into the position where the Taliban, yes the Taliban, are dictating terms for 'our' withdrawal?

We agreed to leave on terms agreed with them. The how is because we wanted to leave and they now hold the country and want us to go. We just didn't think we'd be evacuating under threat of armed forces and mass civil panic. But hey that's war so why bother adding such unlikely things into a deal with a dangerous militia who don't hold power at the time. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by KiwiScot

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

The second sentence is nonsense, she is VP he is President half a year into his first term.

Now why do you think he has been foolhardy?

His Covid response, rescuing the American economy, adhering to his predecessors agreement to withdraw from Afghanistan?

We are taking about the tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan. I have seen some very critical reports from CNN about the way Biden has handled the withdrawal and also note his popularity ratings have declined. You obviously have an ear much closer to the ground than I, if you are able to post from a non partisan perspective I would welcome your views. 

[Van wink 2,994]

52 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

How on earth did we get into the position where the Taliban, yes the Taliban, are dictating terms for 'our' withdrawal?

Appalling misjudgement, failure of intelligence or unwillingness to hear the messages.

[Surfer 1,547]

5 hours ago, Van wink said:

We are taking about the tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan. I have seen some very critical reports from CNN about the way Biden has handled the withdrawal and also note his popularity ratings have declined. You obviously have an ear much closer to the ground than I, if you are able to post from a non partisan perspective I would welcome your views. 

What specific tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan are you referring to? The specific one, not the one the media are whining about. And yes a poll taken after a week of media whining is bound to show a result, that is the power of media after all. Is the whining reasonable is a key question, and the answer, based on the daily evacuation numbers, is very clearly no. And if it is not that, what else is it they are whining about then? 

[Van wink 2,994]

5 hours ago, Surfer said:

What specific tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan are you referring to? The specific one, not the one the media are whining about. And yes a poll taken after a week of media whining is bound to show a result, that is the power of media after all. Is the whining reasonable is a key question, and the answer, based on the daily evacuation numbers, is very clearly no. And if it is not that, what else is it they are whining about then? 

Thanks for your perspective, whining media clearly have a lot to answer for.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Van wink

[A Load of Squit 5,279]

22 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Thanks for your perspective, whining media clearly have a lot to answer for.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/22/infographic-how-many-people-have-been-evacuated-from-afghanistan-interactive

It's a couple of days old but there is a country by country graphic of the number in this link.

[A Load of Squit 5,279]

Worth 7 minutes of your time. 

 

[Barbe bleu 839]

9 hours ago, Surfer said:

What specific tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan are you referring to? The specific one, not the one the media are whining about. And yes a poll taken after a week of media whining is bound to show a result, that is the power of media after all. Is the whining reasonable is a key question, and the answer, based on the daily evacuation numbers, is very clearly no. And if it is not that, what else is it they are whining about then? 

There appear to be two different arguments

1) was it appropriate to withdraw troops ahead of an outcome to talks etc (allied to which is the inevitable  question of 'if not now,  then when' )

2) was the speed of withdrawal too quick and has the pace led to killings etc?

There may be some cross purpose talking

Edited August 24, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[A Load of Squit 5,279]

More up to date numbers.

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/afghanistan-news-taliban-withdrawal-08-23-21/h_5f7044bbaa574184f2eb2e154f2dae46#:~:text=48 min ago-,16%2C000 people have been evacuated out of Kabul within,24 hours%2C US general says&text=Maj. Gen. Hank Taylor%2C,military and commercial charter flights.

Maj. Gen. Hank Taylor, deputy director of the Joint Regional Operations, said that around 16,000 people have been evacuated out of Kabul over the last 24 hours using both military and commercial charter flights.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58296816

The Ministry of Defence said the total figure stands at 5,725 people - 3,100 of whom are Afghan nationals and their families.

 

[Surfer 1,547]

So if only 4,000 of the almost 60,000 persons evacuated are American citizens it would seem most if not all the Afghan interpreters and other assistants will also be evacuated... and if not just how many were there?

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Nobody is complaining about withdrawing from Afghanistan. That is the right thing to do and Trump had the courage and foresight to do what previous presidents didn't do. 

The complaint, from commentators on all sides is that Boden cut and run. He should have implemented a managed withdrawal bit instead just walked away without even consulting US allies. The few troops left on the ground were left to scramble to the airport leaving behind local Afghans who worked with the troops and will now be hunted and killed. Biden did this. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

On 24/08/2021 at 02:43, Surfer said:

What specific tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan are you referring to? The specific one, not the one the media are whining about. And yes a poll taken after a week of media whining is bound to show a result, that is the power of media after all. Is the whining reasonable is a key question, and the answer, based on the daily evacuation numbers, is very clearly no. And if it is not that, what else is it they are whining about then? 

Surfer, this is the same media you've been cut and pasting ever since the Brexit referendum. They've been your go-to for the past five years and now you accuse them of whining. Welcome to the other side mate because that's what we've had to put up with. The media cannot be trusted, they all have their paymasters and everything they say has to be taken with a large dose of salt. 

[A Load of Squit 5,279]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Nobody is complaining about withdrawing from Afghanistan. That is the right thing to do and Trump had the courage and foresight to do what previous presidents didn't do. 

The complaint, from commentators on all sides is that Boden cut and run. He should have implemented a managed withdrawal bit instead just walked away without even consulting US allies. The few troops left on the ground were left to scramble to the airport leaving behind local Afghans who worked with the troops and will now be hunted and killed. Biden did this. 

Biden extended Trumps date by 3 months.

You need to watch this.

 

[horsefly 4,343]

4 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Nobody is complaining about withdrawing from Afghanistan. That is the right thing to do and Trump had the courage and foresight to do what previous presidents didn't do. 

The complaint, from commentators on all sides is that Boden cut and run. He should have implemented a managed withdrawal bit instead just walked away without even consulting US allies. The few troops left on the ground were left to scramble to the airport leaving behind local Afghans who worked with the troops and will now be hunted and killed. Biden did this. 

Utter tosh! Trump signed a deal to have ALL US troops withdrawn by May of this year. Trump DID NOT consult any of the allies, and excluded the Afghan government from the talks. It's sad that Biden only extended the withdrawal date by a few months and he should be rightly criticised for his failures, but the facts are very clear that it was Trump and his America first dogma that precipitated this calamity. The very idea that this constituted "foresight" and "courage" is a disgraceful insult to all the Afghani people who Trump  abandoned to torture, abuse, and death at the hands of the Taliban. 

[Surfer 1,547]

On 23/08/2021 at 12:25, KiwiScot said:

We agreed to leave on terms agreed with them. The how is because we wanted to leave and they now hold the country and want us to go. We just didn't think we'd be evacuating under threat of armed forces and mass civil panic. But hey that's war so why bother adding such unlikely things into a deal with a dangerous militia who don't hold power at the time. 

This is accurate. And to the idea that “nobody is saying we shouldn’t leave” let me introduce you to the US media who are running commentary that is essentially saying exactly that ….. in the guise of “we should leave our 2,500 troops indefinitely and if the Taliban don’t like it send more more troops to force them to” 

Given the circumstances, to have evacuated 90,000 people without major loss of life is an incredible logistical feat, and far from chaos. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

Biden extended Trumps date by 3 months.

You need to watch this.

 

Have the Taliban accepted? They are calling the shots now

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

29 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Utter tosh! Trump signed a deal to have ALL US troops withdrawn by May of this year. Trump DID NOT consult any of the allies, and excluded the Afghan government from the talks. It's sad that Biden only extended the withdrawal date by a few months and he should be rightly criticised for his failures, but the facts are very clear that it was Trump and his America first dogma that precipitated this calamity. The very idea that this constituted "foresight" and "courage" is a disgraceful insult to all the Afghani people who Trump  abandoned to torture, abuse, and death at the hands of the Taliban. 

I'll say it for a third time as you have not been paying attention. No one is claiming that leaving Afghanistan is the wrong thing to do. Clearly, in twenty years of occupation very little has been achieved except to make a few large American corporations extremely rich. It's the manner in which the withdrawal has happened that is being questioned and criticised.

[Herman 9,896]

43 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'll say it for a third time as you have not been paying attention. No one is claiming that leaving Afghanistan is the wrong thing to do. Clearly, in twenty years of occupation very little has been achieved except to make a few large American corporations extremely rich. It's the manner in which the withdrawal has happened that is being questioned and criticised.

It's also been said on numerous times that you can't blame one person while completing ignoring another's failure. 

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'll say it for a third time as you have not been paying attention. No one is claiming that leaving Afghanistan is the wrong thing to do. Clearly, in twenty years of occupation very little has been achieved except to make a few large American corporations extremely rich. It's the manner in which the withdrawal has happened that is being questioned and criticised.

I will accept that you have not, but it is untrue that people have not been saying it, they have.

[Surfer 1,547]

As to the question of how many Afghans should be evacuated the same article provides an estimate, and also one reason why they were not pulled out of the country months ago... ( with another issue Trump administration shut down the Special Immigrant Visa program).

[Surfer 1,547]

And as for the American civilians who have not evacuated, well at some point in time you have to take personal responsibility for your actions, America is not a country that often mandates what you must do.

[Surfer 1,547]

Add these numbers up and you get to approximately 120,000 persons. As it stands today the evacuated numbers are 90,000. Now I am not saying that nobody who wants to leave Afghanistan will be left behind, but it does seem likely approximately 120,000 may be evacuated. 

[horsefly 4,343]

5 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'll say it for a third time as you have not been paying attention. No one is claiming that leaving Afghanistan is the wrong thing to do. Clearly, in twenty years of occupation very little has been achieved except to make a few large American corporations extremely rich. It's the manner in which the withdrawal has happened that is being questioned and criticised.

As you continue to make imbecilic claims I will point out again that it is you who described Trump's decision to guarantee the withdrawal of ALL US troops by May of this year as showing "foresight" and "courage". It was absolutely NOT either of those things. Explain the foresight in telling the Taliban that all US forces will be removed by May irrespective of the state of affairs in Afghanistan at that time. Explain the foresight involved in refusing to involve US allies and the Afghan government in negotiating a deal with the Taliban. And explain the courage involved in abandoning many of the Afghani people the US and allies relied upon to assist the coalition forces. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by horsefly

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

As you continue to make imbecilic claims I will point out again that it is you who described Trump's decision to guarantee the withdrawal of ALL US troops by May of this year as showing "foresight" and "courage". It was absolutely NOT either of those things. Explain the foresight in telling the Taliban that all US forces will be removed by May irrespective of the state of affairs in Afghanistan at that time. Explain the foresight involved in refusing to involve US allies and the Afghan government in negotiating a deal with the Taliban. And explain the courage involved in abandoning many of the Afghani people the US and allies relied upon to assist the coalition forces. 

The invasion of Afghanistan from the very outset was a fools errand and designed to be a payback for 9/11. No sensible military commander goes to war without a very clear cut objective. The only people who wanted the war to continue were Lockheed, Grumman, Northrup, Boeing, Halliburton and their ilk who over twenty years drained the US economy of US$1trillion.

The Center for Strategic and International Studies that Surfer refers to above is a lobby group for the industrial-military network who unsurprisingly are saying just one more little push and Afghanistan can be secured. Obviously, after twenty years of one more little pushes the saner heads have said enough is enough. Or you think the US should continue its occupation of Afghanistan?

Fortunately, the US had a president not beholden to the industrial-military lobby and did the very sensible thing to announce the end of the US occupation. Biden on the other hand seems to have had no plan of how exactly to extract his troops and their Afghan allies in an orderly manner, and did not consult any of his NATO allies. Unsurprisingly, the EU and the UK are now furious at the incompetence displayed by Biden. Right now would be a very good time for China to invade Taiwan as the US would find themselves isolated and without allies. NATO may be damaged for years to come.

[Surfer 1,547]

So we can agree on paragraphs 1 and 2 above. Then the partisanship takes over - we have two Presidents who both decided that leaving Afghanistan to its fate was the correct thing to do, and both are said to have ignored allies in that decision process. One is hailed as being “visionary” and “decisive” the other “clueless” and “divisive” … blah blah blah …..

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Surfer

[horsefly 4,343]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

The invasion of Afghanistan from the very outset was a fools errand and designed to be a payback for 9/11. No sensible military commander goes to war without a very clear cut objective. The only people who wanted the war to continue were Lockheed, Grumman, Northrup, Boeing, Halliburton and their ilk who over twenty years drained the US economy of US$1trillion.

The Center for Strategic and International Studies that Surfer refers to above is a lobby group for the industrial-military network who unsurprisingly are saying just one more little push and Afghanistan can be secured. Obviously, after twenty years of one more little pushes the saner heads have said enough is enough. Or you think the US should continue its occupation of Afghanistan?

Fortunately, the US had a president not beholden to the industrial-military lobby and did the very sensible thing to announce the end of the US occupation. Biden on the other hand seems to have had no plan of how exactly to extract his troops and their Afghan allies in an orderly manner, and did not consult any of his NATO allies. Unsurprisingly, the EU and the UK are now furious at the incompetence displayed by Biden. Right now would be a very good time for China to invade Taiwan as the US would find themselves isolated and without allies. NATO may be damaged for years to come.

And yet again you completely ignore the FACT that Trump exclusively signed a deal with the Taliban to withdraw all US troops by May of this year irrespective of the situation on the ground in Afghanistan. He did not consult with the Afghan government, NATO, or any of the allies. He had four years to develop a plan for withdrawal from Afghanistan in a way that would have left the Afghan government and forces with a genuine chance of resisting the Taliban. Instead he chose to negotiate with the Taliban alone and agreed to withdraw all US forces unconditionally. Hardly a surprise then that the Afghan government and army collapsed so quickly. It is highly regrettable that Biden did virtually nothing to mitigate against the obvious failings in Trump's egregious abandonment of the Afghan people, and he should be held accountable for his role in this calamity. Nothing could be clearer, however, than the fact that this calamity was inevitable the moment Mike Pompeo posed for his smiling pictures with Taliban leaders having signed Trump's cowardly deal in Qatar 

Trump, from the very begining of his presidency pursued his lunatic "America first" policy, and publicly ridiculed the NATO alliance, much to the dismay of all his military chiefs and diplomats. Your willing ignorance of these facts renders your pseudo analysis utter nonsense.

[Barbe bleu 839]

7 hours ago, Surfer said:

So we can agree on paragraphs 1 and 2 above. Then the partisanship takes over - we have two Presidents who both decided that leaving Afghanistan to its fate was the correct thing to do, and both are said to have ignored allies in that decision process. One is hailed as being “visionary” and “decisive” the other “clueless” and “divisive” … blah blah blah …..

 

Trump and Biden are almost completely in step on this.  Everyone recognises this, but it still won't stop the pink un dividing along now traditional lines.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Barbe bleu