The Skipp & Gilmour connection

[Robornio 131]

Here’s a hypothetical question for everyone… with Billy Gilmour likely to be signed, could he ever play next to Oliver Skipp? I’m not usually a fan of playing two CDMs next to each other (aka the Southgate approach), but as both players are superb at winning the ball, can comfortably dribble under pressure and have the vision to make forward passes, potentially it could work. It would also be a brick wall in front of our back four, making us harder to break down. But what are your thoughts? 

[Mr Angry 2,015]

I don’t remember Ollie dribbling that much-a couple of occasions where he made some surging runs into the box-once being brought down for a penalty I recall-but I don’t think he’s really a dribbler.

[Mark .Y. 375]

My thoughts are that playing them both together is not a great idea as neiither has the physique generally required in the Prem. Think you could have 1 of them in the DCM role but would also want a bigger guy next to him ...............yes, N'Golo Kante can be cited but he is genuine world class and the exception to the rule

[Coneys Knee 1,048]

Of course you could play them together

[Europe_93 50]

More than happy to accommodate both.  Skipp progressed during the season notably, and his ability to carry the ball forward was one of the main areas he developed.  You could criticise that neither are going to be dominant aerially, but we don't play that way, other teams may which leaves us needing other players to do the heading, noting it may also take Kenny Mclean out of the team, but it may means we need to improve aerially when recruiting others.  Generally I do think Skipp has the physicality required, not seen enough of Gilmour.

Personally I like to CDM's, Southgate is just being more cautious and not allowing his full backs too far up the pitch.  Shame in terms of entertainment, but we haven't conceded yet.

[canarydan23 4,758]

If we somehow perform a miracle and get Skipp and have a centre midfield pairing of Gilmour and Skipp, either in our normal 4-2-3-1 or the rumoured 3-4-2-1 then I would think we'd stay up comfortably. Gilmour can play a more advanced role if needs be. The age thing doesn't concern me, if you're good enough you're old enough and all that.

Sadly, I don't think it's something we're going to get to witness.

[Ash.m87 24]

Quite an interesting read: https://theathletic.com/2669961/2021/06/24/analysed-gilmour-billing-and-other-skipp-alternatives-for-norwich/#

I'd be excited to see them play together 

[chicken 3,082]

5 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

...............yes, N'Golo Kante can be cited but he is genuine world class and the exception to the rule

Not really.

Under Lambert with the diamond midfield, Fox played that holding role. Later under Hughton and later managers Howson played that role. Makelele is another, who at 5'9", hardly struck an imposing figure. Not all defensive midfielders or holding midfielders are tall and thuggish looking. We arguably haven't had a DM that is prepared to get "stuck in" since Bradley Johnson really. 

[Coneys Knee 1,048]

4 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

If we somehow perform a miracle and get Skipp and have a centre midfield pairing of Gilmour and Skipp, either in our normal 4-2-3-1 or the rumoured 3-4-2-1 then I would think we'd stay up comfortably. Gilmour can play a more advanced role if needs be. The age thing doesn't concern me, if you're good enough you're old enough and all that.

Sadly, I don't think it's something we're going to get to witness.

I’m intrigued, where has the rumoured 3-4-2-1 come from? 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,299]

18 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

My thoughts are that playing them both together is not a great idea as neiither has the physique generally required in the Prem. Think you could have 1 of them in the DCM role but would also want a bigger guy next to him ...............yes, N'Golo Kante can be cited but he is genuine world class and the exception to the rule

Tielemans? Fernandinho? Mouthinho? Ward-Prowse? All under 5ft9 and slightly built.

This idea that physicality means being 6ft4 and 15 stone of muscle is not strictly correct. It mostly means being able to cover a lot of ground, at high speeds, for a long time. As Roy Keane (another little un) always says "football's a running game". 

[Mark .Y. 375]

11 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Tielemans? Fernandinho? Mouthinho? Ward-Prowse? All under 5ft9 and slightly built.

This idea that physicality means being 6ft4 and 15 stone of muscle is not strictly correct. It mostly means being able to cover a lot of ground, at high speeds, for a long time. As Roy Keane (another little un) always says "football's a running game". 

I see what you mean but I'm pretty sure our management team expressed a view that last time we were in the Prem we simply didn't have enough physical presence

[canarydan23 4,758]

11 hours ago, Coneys Knee said:

I’m intrigued, where has the rumoured 3-4-2-1 come from? 

Not sure, beyond the Pinkun I haven't really seen it anywhere.

There were some rumours that Tuchel was keen on sending Gilmour to us because we were set to deploy his "double 6" formation which I'm told means two holding/defensive midfielders in the 3-4-2-1 formation so maybe someone has taken that and run with it.

I'm skeptical myself. Whilst Farke has tinkered with the formation on maybe 2 or 3 occasions, he has largely stuck by his 4-2-3-1 through success and adversity so would he really be contemplating abandoning that as his primary approach?

[Worthy Nigelton 1,299]

39 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

I see what you mean but I'm pretty sure our management team expressed a view that last time we were in the Prem we simply didn't have enough physical presence

They did but I think they meant more in terms of fitness, running and strength. Not necessarily size.

[Mark .Y. 375]

30 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

They did but I think they meant more in terms of fitness, running and strength. Not necessarily size.

Possibly, I guess that isn't the way I read it though.............

[Justin time 200]

42 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Not sure, beyond the Pinkun I haven't really seen it anywhere.

There were some rumours that Tuchel was keen on sending Gilmour to us because we were set to deploy his "double 6" formation which I'm told means two holding/defensive midfielders in the 3-4-2-1 formation so maybe someone has taken that and run with it.

I'm skeptical myself. Whilst Farke has tinkered with the formation on maybe 2 or 3 occasions, he has largely stuck by his 4-2-3-1 through success and adversity so would he really be contemplating abandoning that as his primary approach?

Perhaps he has used that as his preferred approach because he has not had the players to adapt to this new system . If we bring in  higher calibre players he may see this as a better alternative.

[1902 1,167]

1 hour ago, Mark .Y. said:

I see what you mean but I'm pretty sure our management team expressed a view that last time we were in the Prem we simply didn't have enough physical presence

Physical presence is far more about attitude though. We have all played lighter, smaller but doggedly determined players, even if just on the school playground, and we all know that willingness of players to attempt to assert themselves is often what counts in sport. 

Last time around I felt this was the biggest issue, not enough aggression as opposed to not enough size. Many of the great DMs are small, mainly because in the one on one battles for the ball having a low centre of gravity matters. What absolutely none of them lack is the willingness to engage in the battle in the first place.

[Alex Moss 2,167]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

Not sure, beyond the Pinkun I haven't really seen it anywhere.

There were some rumours that Tuchel was keen on sending Gilmour to us because we were set to deploy his "double 6" formation which I'm told means two holding/defensive midfielders in the 3-4-2-1 formation so maybe someone has taken that and run with it.

I'm skeptical myself. Whilst Farke has tinkered with the formation on maybe 2 or 3 occasions, he has largely stuck by his 4-2-3-1 through success and adversity so would he really be contemplating abandoning that as his primary approach?

Think it’s a fan led approach to what they’d like to see as a formation rather than a preferred Farke system. Have no doubt he might tinker with it for certain games though, but not seen any evidence to suggest it’s the way Farke himself would prefer to set up our team.

[canarydan23 4,758]

1 hour ago, Justin time said:

Perhaps he has used that as his preferred approach because he has not had the players to adapt to this new system . If we bring in  higher calibre players he may see this as a better alternative.

I mean, I guess that's possible but he's been our manager for four seasons. Do you not think that if he's always wanted to play the 3-4-2-1 system then he would have looked to recruit the suitable players to do so in the last four years?

I think @Alex Moss is right, fans are putting two and two together and making five. I would be very surprised if we don't at least start the season with 4-2-3-1.

[Justin time 200]

3 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I mean, I guess that's possible but he's been our manager for four seasons. Do you not think that if he's always wanted to play the 3-4-2-1 system then he would have looked to recruit the suitable players to do so in the last four years?

I think @Alex Moss is right, fans are putting two and two together and making five. I would be very surprised if we don't at least start the season with 4-2-3-1.

I just think that after last time in the premier league , he might have decided it may be a better system but would need three solid centre backs and two attacking wing backs. Hence the need for giannoulus and then another quality centre back who they can only now afford.

[canarydan23 4,758]

5 minutes ago, Justin time said:

I just think that after last time in the premier league , he might have decided it may be a better system but would need three solid centre backs and two attacking wing backs. Hence the need for giannoulus and then another quality centre back who they can only now afford.

That's fair, didn't even have the possibility of playing 3-4-2-1 when we only had one fit centre-half for some of that season, never mind three!

[Justin time 200]

20 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

That's fair, didn't even have the possibility of playing 3-4-2-1 when we only had one fit centre-half for some of that season, never mind three!

Still need that extra quality centre back though.

[smooth 114]

As has been noted by many of us, the key is to see where we are at the end of the window. Personally I hope key positions are set and they have had time to get used to our way etc.

DM x2, CB and ST are the positions I feel we need. We all know upon our last promotion Amadou arrived late and we did not get the new number 10, which I still think we're the key positions that off season. So could gilmour and skipp work, they could and it would work to some degree, skipp knows our style and Gilmour is going to play. Just feel a player with more top level appearances will be handy to have in this position.