When will the UK rejoin the EU?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

16 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

You're stupid.

Also, UK exports to the EU fell from 54% of GDP to 44% over nine years up to 2015 while still in the EU, which shows the value of EU membership was diminishing over time.

Also, going back to the  point about the Euro, being compulsory is complete bullsh*t, this is the EU's own view, which stipulates it's a requirement and pursuing convergence is a requirement. https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en#:~:text=All EU Member States%2C except,known as 'convergence criteria'.

As such, countries that have signed up to join the EU who are intentionally avoiding convergence in a bid to avoid joining the Euro are acting in bad faith against the letter of EU rules. The fact that everybody's prepared to selectively turn a blind eye to EU agreements when convenient underlines one of the main perceived problems with the EU that supported a vote for leave in some people's eyes in the first place.

You couldn't sell an idea publicly in the UK that we could avoid joining the Euro by simply acting in bad faith, especially after the fuss over whether the NI protocol was agreed in bad faith.

Edited April 2, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

16 hours ago, sonyc said:

👍All of this.  I welcome CPTTP (or anything that helps) and I know we are not returning to EU membership. I don't think the EU is brilliant. My experience of the Commission is of tiresome bureaucracy. It is flawed. Yet, for all reasonable opinion one gets labelled a 'Remainiac' which I think is code for 'maniac' of course. But what's the problem with disagreeing with the direction of travel? It's clear it's been a shocking own goal. My thoughts are that Brexit voting folk still wish to claim a victory and rub the noses of remain voters when there is a semblance of a positive story. I suppose that is because the majority (on these threads) post stuff about how bad it has been (ergo, somewhere along the line it is therefore Brexit voters to blame. To claim otherwise I don't think is fair to Brexiters). I never imagine though that posting a view (a general one not personalising) has the propensity to incite resentment. There is some kind of psychological effect and it will be interesting to read about the psychology of Brexit in years to come.

Thank goodness Scotland looks like independence now may be receding (even though I understand the arguments and if I was a Scot I could see how I would want to free of Westminster in the similar way as Brexiters want to be free of the EU project). To have a secession from the union would, I feel, create a huge animosity. We don't need more division. You can see in these threads and posts what people think of each other. I know I've posted before but it puts me off venturing any thought. Even someone on the music thread not liking jazz has made me think more than twice about posting any more. Even though the poster suggested to continue. The thing is I don't wish to upset anyone. It's my nature and I cannot just ignore it. It's difficult it appears not to annoy. Even if you carefully compose a comment with qualifications it still can be misconstrued as a criticism. And ultimately it's my problem as I don't really get annoyed by much at all. But do get unnerved by criticism and insult. I must be the original snowflake YF😅

Brexit has been so polarising. I thought it might around the time of the vote reading the vitriol. But I never expected it to continue. And I like you were on the losing side.

 

 

I really enjoyed reading this post yesterday. Restrained, thoughtful, and genuine as always; a unique phenomenon on these pages.

I held back answering it waiting to see if maybe you'd inspire a bit of reflection and a bit more moderate discussion. Seeing as that can be ruled out now, I'll now add my own thoughts.

The debate about in and out was polarising; the debate about the outcome was far worse. At the time, I welcomed the EU decision that article 50 was reversible given my own desire to reverse course, but with hindsight I think it was terrible in making the fight over EU membership far longer and far more bitter than if it had simply ended when article 50 was invoked.

Among Brexit voters, there was a  beliefwe could have our cake and eat it in a way we couldn't as EU members; it was far less about 'hating' the EU as a lot of people imagine or portray.  As time goes on, I'm increasingly confident that they were right.

CPTPP is a life-saver for the UK in my view. The prevailing view of it that it only adds 0.0008% to GDP in the short term is desperately short-sighted. It's pointed out again and again how there is great opportunity for CPTPP/EU alliance that can give us greater benefits with smaller concessions than trying to renegotiate our relationship with the EU unilaterally, but it seems to fall on deaf ears, in spite of the evidence of numerous influential advocates of such an approach on both the EU and the CPTPP camp.

CPTPP has great prospects for expansion that puts us on the buyers side of the fence in negotiating trade agreements with future applicants as we were on the sellers side with Australia and New Zealand.

Rebuilding as part of the CPTPP and rebuilding a closer relationship with the EU are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, they're complementary when you consider the relationships of a lot of our CPTPP partners with the EU. Reading between the lines, that's exactly what we'll see from a future Labour government. In fact, I think it's what we'd see from a future Conservative government as well, because it's in neither party's interest to allow such huge sections of the public to become so completely disenfranchised from them.

The next big challenge to tackle with the EU is asylum, and I think resolving that will be key to restoring freedom to live and work with the EU. My own personal approach would be for the UK to participate in funding Fortex efforts at the EU's external borders and for a communal fund for supporting refugees, which all countries can draw on for each person they grant asylum.

Once you've fixed that dispute, you can get free movement with the EU again with little fuss.

This isn't 'boosterism'; this is just looking for a positive way forward and taking progress like accession to CPTPP for what it is; something to build on.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,541]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I held back answering it waiting to see if maybe you'd inspire a bit of reflection and a bit more moderate discussion. Seeing as that can be ruled out now, I'll now add my own thoughts.

I tend to be happier criticising myself. All things being equal. Often go inside and think about a reaction to something and when I post I'm still unsure. The writing of something helps me work it out as I write. Just like now. I do however get to forgive myself and if there are bad feelings they don't ever last very long. It's a thing I've learned over the years. Brexit dismayed me really and it's the division that I dislike about it. Between people and between countries. I am someone always looking to find common ground between folk. Arguments about left and right are one thing but this Brexit issue seems to have polarised something maybe more important. I can see how fascism arrived in Europe put it that way. History repeats eh.

The thing is too, possibly all those who voted Brexit sitting for 10 hours currently at Dover think (and believe) it's the fault of the French. Not the cause.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

43 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I tend to be happier criticising myself. All things being equal. Often go inside and think about a reaction to something and when I post I'm still unsure. The writing of something helps me work it out as I write. Just like now. I do however get to forgive myself and if there are bad feelings they don't ever last very long. It's a thing I've learned over the years. Brexit dismayed me really and it's the division that I dislike about it. Between people and between countries. I am someone always looking to find common ground between folk. Arguments about left and right are one thing but this Brexit issue seems to have polarised something maybe more important. I can see how fascism arrived in Europe put it that way. History repeats eh.

The thing is too, possibly all those who voted Brexit sitting for 10 hours currently at Dover think (and believe) it's the fault of the French. Not the cause.

 

Nobody really knows what anyone else thinks. It's likely that as many, if not more, in the queues at Dover voted to remain and are sitting there bitterly fuming about having left and how it's all the fault of the brexiteers in the other cars. Let's just hope they don't get out of the cars, start arguing about it, and then start killing each other.

[ricardo 7,444]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

 

The thing is too, possibly all those who voted Brexit sitting for 10 hours currently at Dover think (and believe) it's the fault of the French. Not the cause.

 

 The UK generously allows EU citizens and others to share passport lanes with UK citizens. This speeds things up for everyone. The EU could reciprocate - just add a stamp which takes 10 seconds - yet they don’t reciprocate. Alternatively they could do what the Portuguese do - hire a few more staff. Bingo - the queues disappear

Its a niggling measure to make sure Brexit is noticed by Britons. France in particular was notorious for causing petty hassle at the borders - long before Brexit - for political reasons/national advantage. The French will always be the French regardless of whether we are in the EU or not.

[Yellow Fever 3,848]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Also, UK exports to the EU fell from 54% of GDP to 44% over nine years up to 2015 while still in the EU, which shows the value of EU membership was diminishing over time.

This says nothing of the sort. You could equally argue it shows how membership of the EU has allowed us to also grow our exports better elsewhere (better supply lines and agreements) - and of course how has the actual value of UK EU exports risen in the same period?

Arbitrary percentages of GDP (local or global) are such deceiving figures for the unwary without the appropriate caveats. They are usually posited by people coming straight from the same £350M/week playbook. Gross / Net anybody?

By way of example apparently the USA percentage of world GDP fell by from 40% to about 25% (1960 - present). Must be an economic basket case then despite being birthplace of some of the biggest companies on the planet. I wonder what could of also been going on?

We see this slap-dash use of statistics all the time by politicians but twice nothing (a 100% increase) is still nothing.

[Yellow Fever 3,848]

30 minutes ago, ricardo said:

 The UK generously allows EU citizens and others to share passport lanes with UK citizens. This speeds things up for everyone. The EU could reciprocate - just add a stamp which takes 10 seconds - yet they don’t reciprocate. Alternatively they could do what the Portuguese do - hire a few more staff. Bingo - the queues disappear

Its a niggling measure to make sure Brexit is noticed by Britons. France in particular was notorious for causing petty hassle at the borders - long before Brexit - for political reasons/national advantage. The French will always be the French regardless of whether we are in the EU or not.

Or dear. Back to myths.

I've always liked the phrase that if the British didn't have the French and the French the British they'd have to invent each other.

[ricardo 7,444]

Heres one you'll like.

maybe.

[Herman 9,856]

18 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Or dear. Back to myths.

I've always liked the phrase that if the British didn't have the French and the French the British they'd have to invent each other.

It's pathetic isn't it. They voted for a hard border, got what they wanted and now whinge because the border is rock solid. They actually cheered at the demise of Freedom of Movement. They still haven't realised it was their right too and they cheaply threw it away.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

34 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

This says nothing of the sort. You could equally argue it shows how membership of the EU has allowed us to also grow our exports better elsewhere (better supply lines and agreements) - and of course how has the actual value of UK EU exports risen in the same period?

Arbitrary percentages of GDP (local or global) are such deceiving figures for the unwary without the appropriate caveats. They are usually posited by people coming straight from the same £350M/week playbook. Gross / Net anybody?

By way of example apparently the USA percentage of world GDP fell by from 40% to about 25% (1960 - present). Must be an economic basket case then despite being birthplace of some of the biggest companies on the planet. I wonder what could of also been going on?

We see this slap-dash use of statistics all the time by politicians but twice nothing (a 100% increase) is still nothing.

Total exports stayed very nearly the same; exports to the EU shrunk at about the same rate as they grew to everywhere outside the EU between 2006 and 2015.

Edited April 2, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,541]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Its a niggling measure to make sure Brexit is noticed by Britons. France in particular was notorious for causing petty hassle at the borders - long before Brexit - for political reasons/national advantage. The French will always be the French regardless of whether we are in the EU or not.

I've been going to France for 20 years (more) and not once have I experienced problems by any French customs "at the borders". What kinds of petty hassle?

I've gone by plane, car and train. Regularly.

"The French will always be the French regardless"...hmmm. What does that actually mean?

Honestly, I cannot take this seriously. It's not a great point and you're normally more balanced than that. It does little to convince me that Brexit wasn't about 'foreigners'. French people like the English very much. Completely my experience. The French want people from the UK to travel there, to be tourists, to spend in their economy. The rules about passports and checks were part of the oven ready best ever deal Johnson and Frost crowed about. As was the rule about spending only so long in France before a declaration has to be made (the 90/180 rule).

 

[ricardo 7,444]

7 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I've been going to France for 20 years (more) and not once have I experienced problems by any French customs "at the borders". What kinds of petty hassle?

I've gone by plane, car and train. Regularly.

"The French will always be the French regardless"...hmmm. What does that actually mean?

Honestly, I cannot take this seriously. It's not a great point and you're normally more balanced than that. It does little to convince me that Brexit wasn't about 'foreigners'. French people like the English very much. Completely my experience. The French want people from the UK to travel there, to be tourists, to spend in their economy. The rules about passports and checks were part of the oven ready best ever deal Johnson and Frost crowed about. As was the rule about spending only so long in France before a declaration has to be made (the 90/180 rule).

 

You must have missed it when they spelled it out. 

The EU, making sure Brexit is as painful as possible for Britain. They explicitly promised this in the negotiations. Barnier said it. Macron said it. Brexit has to hurt so others don’t copy us .

Its not that I blame them but lets not pretend it didn't happen.

[ricardo 7,444]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

It's pathetic isn't it. They voted for a hard border, got what they wanted and now whinge because the border is rock solid. They actually cheered at the demise of Freedom of Movement. They still haven't realised it was their right too and they cheaply threw it away.

Its you thats moaning about it, I couldn't care less couldn't care less how hard they make it to get to Europe. Pi$$ing off people who go there to spend money doesn't seem very sensible to me, but there you go.

[sonyc 5,541]

39 minutes ago, ricardo said:

You must have missed it when they spelled it out. 

The EU, making sure Brexit is as painful as possible for Britain. They explicitly promised this in the negotiations. Barnier said it. Macron said it. Brexit has to hurt so others don’t copy us .

Its not that I blame them but lets not pretend it didn't happen.

I must have missed it yes. Because my sense of Barnier was of someone just setting out the EU position. Clear, straightforward and with solidarity (with the member states). It was the UK that tried (constantly) to be awkward. You know that. You heard Johnson. Like we all did. And you'll have read in Barnier's book afterwards talking through exactly what happened - the UK negotiations  being "infantile" at moments. Had we have had better negotiators then we would have had a better Brexit. Barnier was clear in that.

He also expressed confusion about what Brexit was all for. He was scathing of Johnson, Raab and Davis (who turned up in meetings with no papers) and Johnson who bluffed his way through. Why should any of us on this thread be baffled that this wasn't the case? Because we can see with our eyes and we read the papers. We read even the ludicrous anti-EU sentiments in the Mail stating how we will walk away and leave the EU to it. It's all in black and white.

Barnier was okay with May even though she was inflexible. She wasn't trying to play games. Tusk was sad about Brexit.

All of these things are in the public record.

Let's face it Ricardo we had a rotten UK team and they negotiated a rotten deal. We could have had a much softer Brexit. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by sonyc
Paragraphs

[benchwarmer 625]

50 minutes ago, ricardo said:

You must have missed it when they spelled it out. 

The EU, making sure Brexit is as painful as possible for Britain. They explicitly promised this in the negotiations. Barnier said it. Macron said it. Brexit has to hurt so others don’t copy us .

Its not that I blame them but lets not pretend it didn't happen.

Really?  The only quote I can find is Barnier's comment in June 2020, when Johnson was threatening a no-deal Brexit, that "failure to agree a post-Brexit trade deal will hurt the British economy more".  A statement of the blindingly obvious, no more and no less.

As the deadline approached in December 2020, UK negotiator David Frost is quoted as saying that he wanted the UK to end negotiations with "a huge advantage over the EU".  That was never a remote possibility, given the relative size and strength of the UK and EU.  He must surely have known it, at least I hope so.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by benchwarmer

[A Load of Squit 5,232]

It was an act of self-harm, to blame the EU is very stupid.

[ricardo 7,444]

6 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I must have missed it yes. Because my sense of Barnier was of someone just setting out the EU position. Clear, straightforward and with solidarity (with the member states). It was the UK that tried (constantly) to be awkward. You know that. You heard Johnson. Like we all did. And you'll have read in Barnier's book afterwards talking through exactly what happened - the UK negotiations  being "infantile" at moments. Had we have had better negotiators then we would have had a better Brexit. Barnier was clear in that.

He also expressed confusion about what Brexit was all for. He was scathing of Johnson, Raab and Davis (who turned up in meetings with no papers) and Johnson who bluffed his way through. Why should any of us on this thread be baffled that this wasn't the case? Because we can see with our eyes and we read the papers. We read even the ludicrous anti-EU sentiments in the Mail stating how we will walk away and leave the EU to it. It's all in black and white.

Barnier was okay with May even though she was inflexible. She wasn't trying to play games. Tusk was sad about Brexit.

All of these things are in the public record.

Let's face it Ricardo we had a rotten UK team and they negotiated a rotten deal. We could have had a much softer Brexit. 

 

You either accept being part of ever closer union and all that goes with it or you call time and take the hit. I realise that some people are never going to be ok with this but thats what it boils down to. There was never going to be a comfortable deal that suited both sides. The EU will look after their own interests and we will do the same with ours. Over time some of those interests will coincide but in others they never will.

 

[sonyc 5,541]

14 minutes ago, ricardo said:

 

You either accept being part of ever closer union and all that goes with it or you call time and take the hit. I realise that some people are never going to be ok with this but thats what it boils down to. There was never going to be a comfortable deal that suited both sides. The EU will look after their own interests and we will do the same with ours. Over time some of those interests will coincide but in others they never will.

 

As was the case before Brexit. 

We have lost out economically, culturally and our UK reputation. That is the 'hit' you allude to. 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Or dear. Back to myths.

I've always liked the phrase that if the British didn't have the French and the French the British they'd have to invent each other.

It is somewhat best frenemies. Kind of like Ken Barlow and Mike Baldwin.

[ricardo 7,444]

4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

As was the case before Brexit. 

We have lost out economically, culturally and our UK reputation. That is the 'hit' you allude to. 

 

I suspect you are one of those who will never be reconciled to leaving the project. Whereas I am glad we have walked away.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

12 minutes ago, sonyc said:

As was the case before Brexit. 

We have lost out economically, culturally and our UK reputation. That is the 'hit' you allude to. 

 

Again though, overall our reputation is not badly damaged. Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and others have been quick to bring the UK to the table. These are hardly banana republics.

The UK was entitled to leave the EU and left according to the schedule set by the EU. Our King is on the continent engaging in diplomacy on our behalf right now  It's the most civilised political separation in history.

Culturally, the continent is still there right next door. The EU is not a culture; it's a layer of political and economic administration.

Edited April 2, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[ricardo 7,444]

10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

Culturally, the continent is still there right next door. The EU is not a culture; it's a layer of political and economic administration.

Indeed

It's not like we have mined the beach's or they've rebuilt the Atlantic Wall.

[sonyc 5,541]

50 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I suspect you are one of those who will never be reconciled to leaving the project. Whereas I am glad we have walked away.

You're probably right there in a broader respect. Yet, I don't think about the EU 24/7 - indeed I'm completely reconciled to the fact we are no longer part of it. It is the reality. I maybe don't like that but I can't change it.

What I haven't easily reconciled myself to however is the dishonesty in the range of argument. People paint each corner the way they wish but I had hoped by now that even Brexiters who got their wish might have just acknowledged - yes, it was handled badly and it's not great. Or that it wasn't what they expected. Etc etc. That is my beef if I have one. 

And I'm not one for calling you names or being personal to you Ricardo. And never have. You've explained your position before.

It's that some things are just not in good faith.

As for this whole subject I may just leave this alone. I'm as frustrated as ever by it (as you may be) and I won't get my wish (of either side even giving an inch or agreeing even on principle on stuff). I don't think it's going to happen. Human nature I suppose and the very nature of Brexit itself.

As I've stated before it has played deeply into the psyche of the nation. Like no other issue (maybe immigration?). Certainly it isn't as black and white as a left and right thing. Possibly it's generational though (that LSE study I posted thoroughly explored the demographics). Maybe you'll not even accept that either. 

Culturally I'm talking about musicians, artists and their limitations. I am one of that group and could tell you a lot more. But maybe in time it will improve. Some have lost livelihoods. Not just fishermen and farmers or SMEs who exported.

The world will coalesce again. Life has to move on. I'm beaten down with the talk and general nastiness of it all. The narrow mindedness and abuse (by some) and don't wish to lose more minutes. I haven't been able to influence you in my recent posts or make a point that can even be accepted as having any value so what's the point here? But I'm a fair person and will still look forward to your games reports.

 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,199]

3 hours ago, ricardo said:

Its you thats moaning about it, I couldn't care less couldn't care less how hard they make it to get to Europe. Pi$$ing off people who go there to spend money doesn't seem very sensible to me, but there you go.

I guess that's a view of many in the UK.

Having previously lived and worked in and around Kent for many years I got to experience the  congestion, even many miles from Dover, whenever there was some actual bad weather, or industrial action. It had a tremendous impact on local people and companies. Brexit is an additional complication and ETIAS will be another 

I would love to see some kind of EU/UK agreement to make the process at border control frictionless, but reading posts like yours I suspect it isn't a big deal for many people and therefore not likely to happen, at least in the short term 

[ricardo 7,444]

10 minutes ago, sonyc said:

You're probably right there in a broader respect. Yet, I don't think about the EU 24/7 - indeed I'm completely reconciled to the fact we are no longer part of it. It is the reality. I maybe don't like that but I can't change it.

What I haven't easily reconciled myself to however is the dishonesty in the range of argument. People paint each corner the way they wish but I had hoped by now that even Brexiters who got their wish might have just acknowledged - yes, it was handled badly and it's not great. Or that it wasn't what they expected. Etc etc. That is my beef if I have one. 

And I'm not one for calling you names or being personal to you Ricardo. And never have. You've explained your position before.

It's that some things are just not in good faith.

As for this whole subject I may just leave this alone. I'm as frustrated as ever by it (as you may be) and I won't get my wish (of either side even giving an inch or agreeing even on principle on stuff). I don't think it's going to happen. Human nature I suppose and the very nature of Brexit itself.

As I've stated before it has played deeply into the psyche of the nation. Like no other issue (maybe immigration?). Certainly it isn't as black and white as a left and right thing. Possibly it's generational though (that LSE study I posted thoroughly explored the demographics). Maybe you'll not even accept that either. 

Culturally I'm talking about musicians, artists and their limitations. I am one of that group and could tell you a lot more. But maybe in time it will improve. Some have lost livelihoods. Not just fishermen and farmers or SMEs who exported.

The world will coalesce again. Life has to move on. I'm beaten down with the talk and general nastiness of it all. The narrow mindedness and abuse (by some) and don't wish to lose more minutes. I haven't been able to influence you in my recent posts or make a point that can even be accepted as having any value so what's the point here? But I'm a fair person and will still look forward to your games reports.

 

Yes, I completely understand your position, it is inevitable that there will be winners and losers over the decision that has been made. Indeed there were winners and losers in what was the status quo for over four decades. With strongly held personal opinions it is perhaps unsurprising that argument often boils over into personal abuse and point scoring at times and it is often wise to give these threads a miss while tempers cool down.I suppose some people just enjoy a bit of needle every day.

I expect that I am in a very small minority on this forum who believes that the British people made the right decision on this matter but then I'm one of the few who thought sacking Daniel Farke was a bad idea and I'm still adament that I was right about that as well.

I don't think the studies showed this to be a generational thing or a left/right thing. People voted for a wide variety of reasons on both sides of the argument. With some it was just an emotional gut thing that they didn't really rationalise, but thats often the case in any ballot.

For me it was the slow move away from what was initially just a trading bloc and towards a rather more monsterous political entity that gave me pause to become alarmed at the direction of travel and for what I perceived as a total lack of accountability. My thoughts finally coalesced to the same position that Tony Benn clearly outlined in his several essays on the EU. We either accept that power slowly drifts away towards Brussels or we opt out and retain all powers at Westminster. He recognised quite early where the slow drift was taking us and the lack of accountability was upermost in his thoughts as well. Although there were many subjects I didn't agree with him on, I found this piece mirrored my thoughts exactly.

https://labourheartlands.com/tony-benn-britain-must-leave-the-eu-to-restore-democracy/

 

[ricardo 7,444]

1 minute ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I guess that's a view of many in the UK.

Having previously lived and worked in and around Kent for many years I got to experience the  congestion, even many miles from Dover, whenever there was some actual bad weather, or industrial action. It had a tremendous impact on local people and companies. Brexit is an additional complication and ETIAS will be another 

I would love to see some kind of EU/UK agreement to make the process at border control frictionless, but reading posts like yours I suspect it isn't a big deal for many people and therefore not likely to happen, at least in the short term 

The fact that Dover is the only really viable crossing point rather exacerbates the problem. With everything pushed through one small town it is easy to see how problems can build up. In the end it comes down to cost and time and Dover is rather limited when it comes to expansion.

[sonyc 5,541]

20 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Yes, I completely understand your position, it is inevitable that there will be winners and losers over the decision that has been made. Indeed there were winners and losers in what was the status quo for over four decades. With strongly held personal opinions it is perhaps unsurprising that argument often boils over into personal abuse and point scoring at times and it is often wise to give these threads a miss while tempers cool down.I suppose some people just enjoy a bit of needle every day.

I expect that I am in a very small minority on this forum who believes that the British people made the right decision on this matter but then I'm one of the few who thought sacking Daniel Farke was a bad idea and I'm still adament that I was right about that as well.

I don't think the studies showed this to be a generational thing or a left/right thing. People voted for a wide variety of reasons on both sides of the argument. With some it was just an emotional gut thing that they didn't really rationalise, but thats often the case in any ballot.

For me it was the slow move away from what was initially just a trading bloc and towards a rather more monsterous political entity that gave me pause to become alarmed at the direction of travel and for what I perceived as a total lack of accountability. My thoughts finally coalesced to the same position that Tony Benn clearly outlined in his several essays on the EU. We either accept that power slowly drifts away towards Brussels or we opt out and retain all powers at Westminster. He recognised quite early where the slow drift was taking us and the lack of accountability was upermost in his thoughts as well. Although there were many subjects I didn't agree with him on, I found this piece mirrored my thoughts exactly.

https://labourheartlands.com/tony-benn-britain-must-leave-the-eu-to-restore-democracy/

 

I will read. Thanks.

And swap you for that LSE piece. Age, class and inequality (wealth) were dominant factors.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-inequality-and-the-demographic-divide/

Age was the biggest variable. A few other studies provide good evidence of the vote.

One link here: 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/

Edited April 2, 2023 by sonyc

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,199]

27 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The fact that Dover is the only really viable crossing point rather exacerbates the problem. With everything pushed through one small town it is easy to see how problems can build up. In the end it comes down to cost and time and Dover is rather limited when it comes to expansion.

I wouldn't say its the only viable crossing point, but it's certainly the nearest,  quickest and most important.

You are right that expansion is limited, which is why the processing centres were built out of town. Though I think the UK isn't actually checking that much, at the moment.

If I recall correctly, a majority in Dover voted to leave. Maybe they didn't think there would be potential issues, or maybe they didn't think those potential issues would affect them. Or that they they wanted to leave regardless.

One way or another, a better way forward needs to be found, and that is incumbent on both the UK and EU 

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

4 hours ago, sonyc said:

We have lost out economically, culturally and our UK reputation. That is the 'hit' you allude to. 

That's complete BS, sonyc, the cost of Brexit is miniscule compared to that of the cost of Covid/lockdowns/furlough payments etc...

Regarding our reputation, in the last year Britain’s exports have risen by 24% and foreign direct investment into the UK broke the £2 trillion mark for the first time -- We have free trade agreements in force with 94 countries around the world (The EU has 79) including the 27 countries which are members of the EU -- Outside the EU, the UK is being welcomed with open arms around the World.

The UK’s 'Developing Countries Trading Scheme' applies to 65 countries thus far and is offering lower tariffs and simpler rules of origin requirements for exporting to the UK -- The scheme helps countries to diversify their exports and grow their economies, while British households and businesses benefit from lower prices and more choice.

This will obviously come as a shock to many Rejoiniacs, but the UK doesn’t have to be a member of the EU’s empire, nor to be under its laws, nor to have to subsidise its other members with billions of pounds in annual payments, in order to trade internationally.

[PurpleCanary 5,601]

5 hours ago, ricardo said:

 

You either accept being part of ever closer union and all that goes with it or you call time and take the hit. I realise that some people are never going to be ok with this but thats what it boils down to. There was never going to be a comfortable deal that suited both sides. The EU will look after their own interests and we will do the same with ours. Over time some of those interests will coincide but in others they never will.

 

Or you avoid the catastrophic hit to the UK economy by staying in the world's largest single market on your doorstep and use your economic power and political influence to limit or in extremis veto any steps that you don't like towards some over-the-horizon ever closer union.

And if there ever comes a time, which certainly hadn't happened before the referendum, and shows no sign of happening any time soon, when such steps arrive that are deemed beyond the pale and also cannot be limited or vetoed then you leave.

What you don't do is elevate a self-regarding theoretical purism above the totally predictable and predicted negative  effects on the real lives of real people.