When will the UK rejoin the EU?

[A Load of Squit 5,184]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

France win. Party time here, at any rate. Mind you, I'm sure you'll all be partying as well. Drinks on the house here.Cheers! 😂🍻

If it's so great where you are why are you talking b0ll0cks on here?

#billynomatessittinginthecorneronhisphone.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

21 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

If it's so great where you are why are you talking b0ll0cks on here?

#billynomatessittinginthecorneronhisphone.

Not a bad question. Cheers!

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,793]

16 hours ago, Indy said:

The EU is doing what the EU warned would happen, we alienated ourselves out that market, the EU are in context now a direct competitor in selling goods to the global market and will look after its own interests! 

How many years do people think before this simple explanation sinks in??

[Herman 9,793]

And why do all brexiters live abroad?! 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

7 hours ago, Herman said:

And why do all brexiters live abroad?! 

Yet again... I voted to remain, joined the lib Dems and campaigned for them on the phone for two general elections in a bid to reverse it while it was still an option.

That time has passed, we are where we are. It's a waste of time moaning about stuff you can't change, which is what SKS understands and you guys apparently don't.

[Herman 9,793]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yet again... I voted to remain, joined the lib Dems and campaigned for them on the phone for two general elections in a bid to reverse it while it was still an option.

That time has passed, we are where we are. It's a waste of time moaning about stuff you can't change, which is what SKS understands and you guys apparently don't.

I and others have said repeatedly that we understand Starmer's positioning.

[sonyc 5,539]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

we are where we are

LYB, this is a very good example of a "thought-terminating cliché". I was reading about these this morning. "Get Brexit Done" is also one, "Living with Covid" is another. The king of TTCs being "It is what it is". 

They all have the effect of stopping or inhibiting debate, because in their simplicity it's as if they make up a universal truth. In other words, whatever anyone says after, it tends to be countered with the TTC term! Tory ministers have used it to manipulate people ("we got Brexit done", never mind your views on caution we just have to "live with Covid"). It aims at stopping people thinking.

I've often felt uncomfortable with such phrases because of that kind of choice of words. Only because we don't HAVE to accept that "we are where we are". We ought to question, argue and challenge really. Otherwise, ideas and questions get 'reduced'.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

13 minutes ago, sonyc said:

LYB, this is a very good example of a "thought-terminating cliché". I was reading about these this morning. "Get Brexit Done" is also one, "Living with Covid" is another. The king of TTCs being "It is what it is". 

They all have the effect of stopping or inhibiting debate, because in their simplicity it's as if they make up a universal truth. In other words, whatever anyone says after, it tends to be countered with the TTC term! Tory ministers have used it to manipulate people ("we got Brexit done", never mind your views on caution we just have to "live with Covid"). It aims at stopping people thinking.

I've often felt uncomfortable with such phrases because of that kind of choice of words. Only because we don't HAVE to accept that "we are where we are". We ought to question, argue and challenge really. Otherwise, ideas and questions get 'reduced'.

In the next village to me, there's a retired British EU diplomat and a former political advisor to Macron. I've worked for both of them and, as you'd expect, they're very intelligent and thoughtful people.

Both were also utterly venomous regarding the UK ever since the referendum to the point I was genuinely worried what the EU was going to try to do to the UK in response, and since then, some of the actions of the EU, like the story regarding legislation changes targeting Euro-denominated derivative trading in London, and notably the EU's article 16 announcement over vaccines only months after the transition period ended underlined that their personal spite towards the UK was reflected throughout the institution of the EU and the countries most invested in the EU, like France.

This is why I don't think, but know, that contemplating rejoining the EU is an absolute waste of time. Like it or not, we are going to have to box very clever to even get on fairly good terms with the EU while protecting our own interests as they look for more ways to disadvantage the UK, regardless of who's in government in the UK.

So there you have it: That's why my own views regarding this thread cycle through sympathy, exasperation, and sometimes frustration and scorn. That doesn't change the fact that I hope the UK does get back on good terms with the EU without being taken for a mug in the process.

[sonyc 5,539]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

In the next village to me, there's a retired British EU diplomat and a former political advisor to Macron. I've worked for both of them and, as you'd expect, they're very intelligent and thoughtful people.

Both were also utterly venomous regarding the UK ever since the referendum to the point I was genuinely worried what the EU was going to try to do to the UK in response, and since then, some of the actions of the EU, like the story regarding legislation changes targeting Euro-denominated derivative trading in London, and notably the EU's article 16 announcement over vaccines only months after the transition period ended underlined that their personal spite towards the UK was reflected throughout the institution of the EU and the countries most invested in the EU, like France.

This is why I don't think, but know, that contemplating rejoining the EU is an absolute waste of time. Like it or not, we are going to have to box very clever to even get on fairly good terms with the EU while protecting our own interests as they look for more ways to disadvantage the UK, regardless of who's in government in the UK.

So there you have it: That's why my own views regarding this thread cycle through sympathy, exasperation, and sometimes frustration and scorn. That doesn't change the fact that I hope the UK does get back on good terms with the EU without being taken for a mug in the process.

Yes I believe I understand the relational damage as well as the legal and economic damage. That's what divorces do. What I don't accept is that governments and individuals can always do things, say things that heal. I guess I would say that as a former counsellor - but I know how, with a pure heart, you can actually move a mountain. So whilst things are what they are and ... we are where we are ... relationships of any kind are dynamic. They can change quickly. Both Sunak and Starmer have a responsibility. At least we don't have that idiot narcissist Johnson or the stupidity of Truss (who you'll recall wouldn't even say if Macron was a friend). Words are meaningful and have a currency in politics. We cannot just give up. Too many people have fixed positions on all kinds of things. I feel that very strongly - maybe that's why people become more conservative with age? I think we should become the opposite as we age, become more uncertain, more argumentative even (though you manage that I must say😉 ...a polite joke there). 

Anyway, it's just me railing against those thought clichés! As you'll gather I get suspicious of being played. I've just thought of another one "We've levelled up"! Marketing claptrap that is having a toxic effect on our language and relationships - the recent administration took it even further. Used by totalitarian leaders and populists.

Apologies for selecting rather a moot point to post about. It's a personal dislike. And I understand too you were being honest.

Similar to my point above is someone picking on a person and inciting a kind of hatred by repetition of a meme or a characteristic about them. Very soon you find yourself in a different world and dynamic.

The other similar criticism you come across when people attempt to limit debate or minimise are people who like to chide you about having an idealism, as if one is stupid, not grown up enough to realise the world is cynical. It's as if the cold experience of age trumps any kind of wish for a better society....you get the word 'woke' used too. It's meant to put folk in their place.

As for the EU (and to get back to the subject from my philosophising), I'm really hopeful that Starmer has the strength to push for closer relationships ahead, catches up with public opinion, even if he is playing cautious now.

Edited December 11, 2022 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Yes I believe I understand the relational damage as well as the legal and economic damage. That's what divorces do. What I don't accept is that governments and individuals can always do things, say things that heal. I guess I would say that as a former counsellor - but I know how, with a pure heart, you can actually move a mountain. So whilst things are what they are and ... we are where we are ... relationships of any kind are dynamic. They can change quickly. Both Sunak and Starmer have a responsibility. At least we don't have that idiot narcissist Johnson or the stupidity of Truss (who you'll recall wouldn't even say if Macron was a friend). Words are meaningful and have a currency in politics. We cannot just give up. Too many people have fixed positions on all kinds of things. I feel that very strongly - maybe that's why people become more conservative with age? I think we should become the opposite as we age, become more uncertain, more argumentative even (though you manage that I must say😉 ...a polite joke there). 

Anyway, it's just me railing against those thought clichés! As you'll gather I get suspicious of being played. I've just thought of another one "We've levelled up"! Marketing claptrap that is having a toxic effect on our language and relationships - the recent administration took it even further. Used by totalitarian leaders and populists.

Apologies for selecting rather a moot point to post about. It's a personal dislike. And I understand too you were being honest.

Similar to my point above is someone picking on a person and inciting a kind of hatred by repetition of a meme or a characteristic about them. Very soon you find yourself in a different world and dynamic.

The other similar criticism you come across when people attempt to limit debate or minimise are people who like to chide you about having an idealism, as if one is stupid, not grown up enough to realise the world is cynical. It's as if the cold experience of age trumps any kind of wish for a better society....you get the word 'woke' used too. It's meant to put folk in their place.

As for the EU (and to get back to the subject from my philosophising), I'm really hopeful that Starmer has the strength to push for closer relationships ahead, catches up with public opinion, even if he is playing cautious now.

I'm sure he will work for closer relationships, I think he should do, and I'm sure relations will improve in time, but we won't be joining the single market, CU, or rejoining the EU. the EU will never wear it.

Farage and the like's project wasn't just about getting the UK out of the EU; it was about weakening the EU to the point that it broke. The UK public backed that in a referendum. Then the EU gave every chance to abort by ruling that the article 50 notification could be annulled. We had two general elections where opposition could have got itself together to prevent leaving. It didn't happen, we left, we hurt the EU, and it won't be forgiven, and the EU will continue to find every avenue it can to show what happens to countries that leave the EU.

I agree with what you say about uncertainty, and I would say I'm far less certain about most things than I was when I was younger, but I have absolutely no doubt that if the UK ever sought any sort of mercy from the EU then a lot of people are going to have a rude awakening. Nobody seems to appreciate that on the continent, they don't care about the Conservative party, they just care what the British public chose, while recognising the majorities for remain in Wales, Scotland, and NI as weaknesses to exploit.

And even if the EU did miraculously get on board with readmission in principle, you would still have the same electoral system in place. Unless the Commons is reformed then everything is in place for any attempts to rejoin by either main party resulting in the same sort of chaos that was caused by the referendum in the first place.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 1,999]

I'm sure that many will recall the rabid Brexiteers (Paul Moy springs instantly to mind as one example) who throughout (and after) the referendum campaign repeatedly claimed that Brexit would cause a domino effect of other countries choosing to leave and the eventual collapse of the European Union.

These claims were manifestly stupid and ridiculous at the time and sure enough, like so many of the Brexit lies and myths, have now been completely debunked:

"Support for leaving the EU has dropped significantly, and sometimes dramatically, in member states across the bloc in the wake of the UK’s Brexit referendum, according to data from a major pan-European survey.

The European Social Survey (ESS), led by City, University of London and conducted in 30 European nations every two years since 2001, found respondents were less likely to vote leave in every EU member state for which data was available.

The largest decline in leave support was in Finland, where 28.6% of respondents who declared which way they would vote in a Brexit-style referendum answered leave in 2016-2017, against only 15.4% in 2020-2022.

Similarly stark falls between 2016 and 2022 were recorded in the Netherlands (from 23% to 13.5%), Portugal (15.7% to 6.6%), Austria (26% to 16.1%) and France (24.3% to 16%), with smaller but still statistically significant falls in Hungary (16% to 10.2%), Spain (9.3% to 4.7%) Sweden (23.9% to 19.3%), and Germany (13.6% to 11%)."

Full article here:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexit

[Creative Midfielder 1,999]

Very long overdue, but nevertheless still something of a surprise that either of the main parties would get involved:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/11/revealed-secret-cross-party-summit-held-to-confront-failings-of-brexitery

Can't really see it going anywhere this side of the next GE.

 

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

On 11/02/2023 at 22:36, Creative Midfielder said:

Very long overdue, but nevertheless still something of a surprise that either of the main parties would get involved:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/11/revealed-secret-cross-party-summit-held-to-confront-failings-of-brexitery

Can't really see it going anywhere this side of the next GE.

 

Ruffled a few of the usual suspects feathers. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/12/brexiters-claim-sellout-after-tories-discuss-rapprochement-with-eu

[sonyc 5,539]

7 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Ruffled a few of the usual suspects feathers. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/12/brexiters-claim-sellout-after-tories-discuss-rapprochement-with-eu

I read that too. And it reminded me of the Blackadder final series I'm re-watching. Reading Frost's comments immediately reminded me of Stephen Fry's General Melchett. Frost seems equally deluded and it appears he believes the things he says. As for Farage and Redwood, when these are the main protagonists on the side of Brexit (not to mention Johnson) who on earth might have been persuaded by these chancers that their arguments were the ones to follow?

Anyway, as to this story, it feels like a few folk who have an excuse for some dinner, fine wine and fine talk in a country house on a weekend. All feels great but ultimately a waste of time in making any actual difference.

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

I read that too. And it reminded me of the Blackadder final series I'm re-watching. Reading Frost's comments immediately reminded me of Stephen Fry's General Melchett. Frost seems equally deluded and it appears he believes the things he says. As for Farage and Redwood, when these are the main protagonists on the side of Brexit (not to mention Johnson) who on earth might have been persuaded by these chancers that their arguments were the ones to follow?

Anyway, as to this story, it feels like a few folk who have an excuse for some dinner, fine wine and fine talk in a country house on a weekend. All feels great but ultimately a waste of time in making any actual difference.

I like the Blackadder quote - sums up many of these other worldly buffoons.

However, the meeting was the first signs of rational thinking from some of the Brexiteers - willing to admit all is not well. As with all problems - the first thing to do is to admit the issue if you want to find a cure. First little steps.

The opening statement of the 'meeting' is informative -

A confidential introductory statement for those at the meeting acknowledged that there was now a view among “some at least, that so far the UK has not yet found its way forward outside the EU” with Brexit “acting as a drag on our growth and inhibiting the UK’s potential”.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

However, the meeting was the first signs of rational thinking from some of the Brexiteers...

Equally, it's a sign of some rational thinking from erstwhile remainers who have jettisoned the delusion that the UK can somehow finish up in the EU again.

Edited February 13, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 1,999]

7 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Ruffled a few of the usual suspects feathers. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/12/brexiters-claim-sellout-after-tories-discuss-rapprochement-with-eu

Good 😀😀

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Equally, it's a sign of some rational thinking from erstwhile remainers who have jettisoned the delusion that the UK can somehow finish up in the EU again.

It is only you that seem to take absolute positions as above on everything - always black and white and nothing in the middle let alone any nuances in understanding.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

Just now, Yellow Fever said:

It is only you that seem to take absolute positions as above on everything - always black and white and nothing in the middle let alone any nuances in understanding.

You are funny sometimes.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,189]

One or two on the front line are starting to get cold feet.

I guess we will have to wait and see what ETIAS brings.

Dover was one of my old commutes.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

Just googled ETIAS. The top link is an EU  website.

The policy seems very simple. It just says access denied.

https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/smart-borders/european-travel-information-authorisation-system_en

[Captain Holt 522]

Even if we had another vote the nutjobs would still vote leave. The silent, daily mail and sun reading 'I'm not racist but's' can never be underestimated. Also, I think the tories might still win the next election after a toxic campaign of hate like we've never seen before from the right wing press. 

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

1 hour ago, Captain Holt said:

Even if we had another vote the nutjobs would still vote leave. The silent, daily mail and sun reading 'I'm not racist but's' can never be underestimated. Also, I think the tories might still win the next election after a toxic campaign of hate like we've never seen before from the right wing press. 

Much of what you say may be true but nevertheless there is a long term process at work which will be unstoppable.

Simply, the younger and emerging generations are far more connected, far more used to travel, than the older 'boomer' generation(s). Very simply the younger generations look and feel more European in outlook. The future is theirs.

Brexit is simply the last fling by a dying and diminishing generation to cling to the past and its largely mythical glories - the closing days of the British empire and global influence helped on by a populist flag waving media. It's so 20th century in thought and feel.

The future of the UK will as ever be a leading (and somewhat wiser) member of the European community of nations. Brexit is just a hiccup on this path and already unravelling as per the polls and hard truths continue to hit home.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Much of what you say may be true but nevertheless there is a long term process at work which will be unstoppable.

Simply, the younger and emerging generations are far more connected, far more used to travel, than the older 'boomer' generation(s). Very simply the younger generations look and feel more European in outlook. The future is theirs.

Brexit is simply the last fling by a dying and diminishing generation to cling to the past and its largely mythical glories - the closing days of the British empire and global influence helped on by a populist flag waving media. It's so 20th century in thought and feel.

The future of the UK will as ever be a leading (and somewhat wiser) member of the European community of nations. Brexit is just a hiccup on this path and already unravelling as per the polls and hard truths continue to hit home.

Anyway, let's get this thread back on topic and away from the fantasies: When will the UK rejoin the EU?

A lot of these premises fail to take into account that there's now going to be a whole generation to come looking at Asia to see what they can do out there instead of on the continent. The nostalgia for the EU  is purely economic; there's no heart to it.

Very likely never.

Edited February 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,793]

Plenty of heart left for us to be closer to our neighbours. It's not just economic. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

39 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Anyway, let's get this thread back on topic and away from the fantasies: When will the UK rejoin the EU?

A lot of these premises fail to take into account that there's now going to be a whole generation to come looking at Asia to see what they can do out there instead of on the continent. The nostalgia for the EU  is purely economic; there's no heart to it.

Very likely never.

Maybe when the City of London becomes a wasteland, there will be talk of rejoining. But until then, I don't think we will rejoin.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Maybe when the City of London becomes a wasteland, there will be talk of rejoining. But until then, I don't think we will rejoin.

Yeah, the EU has been pretty hardcore over refusing équivalences that are actually pretty normal elsewhere.

I think the Japan relationship will prove to be a bit of a symbiosis for the UK going forward. They have an excellent relationship with Germany and good trading terms with the EU. They're looking to us to add value to making CPTPP credible; I think they're going to be important to the process of us reconciling with the EU politically and economically.

[Herman 9,793]

Referendum on joining the CPTPP.

No: 46,560,451

Yes: 1

[Creative Midfielder 1,999]

Don't think this is even a surprise https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/30/britons-more-confidence-in-eu-than-westminster-poll-brexit  but another indicator of which way the wind is blowing.

And it isn't just confidence in the UK Government which has plummeted, our police come out badly and our press absolutely shocking (though again not really surprising):

“Confidence in parliament has halved since 1990,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, the director of the Policy Institute at King’s College London, which analysed the figures. “We’re among the least likely of more than 20 countries in the study to have confidence in the government; confidence in the police has fallen sharply, particularly in London; and only Egypt has less trust in their press.”

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,561]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Don't think this is even a surprise https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/30/britons-more-confidence-in-eu-than-westminster-poll-brexit  but another indicator of which way the wind is blowing.

And it isn't just confidence in the UK Government which has plummeted, our police come out badly and our press absolutely shocking (though again not really surprising):

“Confidence in parliament has halved since 1990,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, the director of the Policy Institute at King’s College London, which analysed the figures. “We’re among the least likely of more than 20 countries in the study to have confidence in the government; confidence in the police has fallen sharply, particularly in London; and only Egypt has less trust in their press.”

 

One wonders at the mindset of people who are more interested in the failure of domestic politics as an argument to join an international body than as an argument to engage in real domestic political reform to the nation's main legislature.

To my amusement, I discovered one Europhile on here is given to running away screaming from their screens looking for medication at the suggestion of trying to improve domestic UK politics. It's almost like they're more invested in seeing the UK fail for the sake of their own hobby horse than trying to reform the UK to get out of the hole it's in itself.

Edited March 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie