An alternative formation.

[TheGunnShow 7,379]

Considering the form of some of the players and the composition of the team, I was wondering if we may be more solid yet also creative with a slightly different formation to the 4-2-3-1 we customarily play. I would suggest that we play a 4-3-2-1 instead so Cantwell and Buendia (or Stiepermann, or Dowell) play behind a single striker, and the full-backs are the only providers of attacking width.

I suggest that as it looks the best way to get a Vrancic in (or indeed Leitner or Trybull, but that ship sailed). Vrancic is best when he's got a bit of space to get his head up and ping those 7-iron diagonal balls out wide (or from wide) or skidding passes into the channels. Putting him up in the hole minimises that ability to get his head up and hit them, but with two men around him, he's protected a bit more and also means we should be more compact down the centre of the park. Furthermore, both Rupp and Skipp have the engines to go box-to-box so can do the link-up play themselves with the ball. If they're both sitting, Vrancic himself could play a freer role in the next phase or two of play.

Considering we played 4-1-4-1 against - IIRC - Bournemouth, it's not as if we are unwilling or completely wedded to one formation. I just think with the injuries to Dowell and Hernandez, the relative lack of pace through the ranks (except for Placheta and to a lesser extent Idah) this might suit us a little better.

This would basically result in the following sort of line-up:

GK: Tim KRUL
RB: Max AARONS
RCB: Grant HANLEY
LCB: Ben GIBSON
LB: Xavi QUINTILLA
RCM: Oliver SKIPP
CM: Mario VRANCIC
LCM: Lukas RUPP
RAM: Emiliano BUENDIA
LAM: Todd CANTWELL
CF: Teemu PUKKI

If we need pace, and one of Buendia or Cantwell's not really on it (or at a push one of Skipp or Rupp), chuck on a speedster and play with a more orthodox winger instead, then consider putting Hugill on in there too for greater physical presence.

Edited October 22, 2020 by TheGunnShow

[paddycanary 580]

Not a bad call given the current options. Hopefully Mario keeps pushing & forcing the question, Teemu slots a through ball, and Todd cracks one in. With a bit of luck around defensive injuries, we could really start to gather some momentum here. Every game brings a different challenge but we look to be rediscovering a DF identity. 

[Jerrykerry 223]

Youre a genius. 

If only our manager and coaching team had the ability to come up with random football manager formations after hundreds of hours on the training ground....

[TheGunnShow 7,379]

2 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

Youre a genius. 

If only our manager and coaching team had the ability to come up with random football manager formations after hundreds of hours on the training ground....

Thanks. 😉

You'll find Carlo Ancelotti had success at AC Milan with the exact same formation (4-3-2-1 being the Christmas Tree), with full-backs tasked to provide the width. Pirlo, Ambrosini and Gattuso together. Obviously, we don't have players of that calibre, but it's not too hard to see the comparisons. Skipp to break attacks up, Vrancic to pick the passes, and Rupp to be the carrier / outlet at short range.

https://www.footiefantasy.com/featured-articles/looking-back-how-ancelotti-kaka-and-pirlo-gave-rise-to-the-4-3-2-1/
 

[king canary 8,763]

2 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

Youre a genius. 

If only our manager and coaching team had the ability to come up with random football manager formations after hundreds of hours on the training ground....

Who hurt you?

[paddycanary 580]

6 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

Youre a genius. 

If only our manager and coaching team had the ability to come up with random football manager formations after hundreds of hours on the training ground....

A touch harsh JK? Is this not a discussion forum? What's wrong with trying to suggest a way of slotting Mario in against a (perceived) weaker team while remaining solid through the middle & keeping some width? And removing the problematic no. 10 issue

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

I like it, we have some decent lay football coaches on here and even better politicians. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,629]

6 hours ago, Jerrykerry said:

Youre a genius. 

If only our manager and coaching team had the ability to come up with random football manager formations after hundreds of hours on the training ground....

Jesus Christ, he's putting forward an idea and actually backing it up with decent reasons and logic. What's wrong with that?

Anyway, I think this system would be good for those wanting Vrancic in the team. He is more effective when he plays deeper, and having two players alongside him provides the security which he doesn't. Along with the fact that we're struggling for a central number ten right now and have been for a while, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing this system.

[hogesar 10,774]

51 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Jesus Christ, he's putting forward an idea and actually backing it up with decent reasons and logic. What's wrong with that?

Anyway, I think this system would be good for those wanting Vrancic in the team. He is more effective when he plays deeper, and having two players alongside him provides the security which he doesn't. Along with the fact that we're struggling for a central number ten right now and have been for a while, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing this system.

It is pretty much the best way to get Vrancic in without sacrificing midfield solidarity. I guess the question is do we change for that reason? At the moment we are playing well so can't see it.

[Aggy 944]

.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Aggy
Double post

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,629]

26 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It is pretty much the best way to get Vrancic in without sacrificing midfield solidarity. I guess the question is do we change for that reason? At the moment we are playing well so can't see it.

We're doing OK, but we could do better. At no point this season have I thought after a game that we were excellent, blew away an opponent or deserved to win by a few goals.

We're doing just about enough, but are we playing well enough to go up? I'm not sure. I still think we need to find an extra gear if we're going to get promotion this season. I'm not saying that this (or any) tactical switch is the solution, as it could be just a case of finding a bit of rhythm, but a little tweak to the system could help.

[Aggy 944]

5 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

You'll find Carlo Ancelotti had success at AC Milan with the exact same formation (4-3-2-1 being the Christmas Tree), with full-backs tasked to provide the width. Pirlo, Ambrosini and Gattuso together.
 

So did I on probably FM 07?  Whichever version Yoann Gourcuff’s potential rating was ridiculous, pretty much the last time I played it. Gourcuff and Kaka ahead of those three (Seedorf rotating), Jankulovski at left wing back and I brought in Rafinha for the right. Maldini, Nesta and Dida to top it off (although Bonera was my lucky charm and usually displaced Maldini). Great side!

On the Norwich system, I think it’s pretty reasonable. I think without really changing all that much (certainly not the “style” of play) , we have the players to make pretty much any combination of 4 defenders, 3 midfielders and 3 attackers work. Your midfield three could be Tettey holding with two in front, a flat three, two holding with one in front. Your attacking three could be two proper wingers plus a striker, two behind Pukki, or even an attacking midfielder and two strikers (in a 41212). 

To be honest, we often sort of rotate through some of those in the same game. I can remember the Chelsea game after lockdown where we had Tettey Rupp and McClean starting, some times it looked like Tettey behind the others, other times like Rupp was playing ahead of them. Sometimes it was basically a flat 5 in

[hogesar 10,774]

2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

We're doing OK, but we could do better. At no point this season have I thought after a game that we were excellent, blew away an opponent or deserved to win by a few goals.

We're doing just about enough, but are we playing well enough to go up? I'm not sure. I still think we need to find an extra gear if we're going to get promotion this season. I'm not saying that this (or any) tactical switch is the solution, as it could be just a case of finding a bit of rhythm, but a little tweak to the system could help.

I think we deserved to win by a few goals against Birmingham and I dont think there's been as one-sided a game in the championship for some time, or if there has been its been very few and far between.

We are top of the championship for possession and chances created according to Farke. I dont see us making formation changes at this stage.

[TheGunnShow 7,379]

Bit of archaeology to bring this thread back up in the light of the Buendia sale, its timing, and some of our old weaknesses last time in the Premier League. Made more sense than starting a new one.

Does anyone else think three deeper-lying midfielders instead of two could well be the modus operandi (obviously, we need to buy at least one for depth)? I'm thinking something like this:

GK: Tim KRUL
RB: Max AARONS (assuming he stays)
RCB: Grant HANLEY
LCB: Ben GIBSON
LB: Dimitrios GIANNOULIS
CM: Jacob SÖRENSEN
CM: Oliver SKIPP (assuming it's true he's back on loan, otherwise Lukas RUPP)
CM: Kenny MCLEAN
LAM: Todd CANTWELL (assuming he stays)
RAM: Kieran DOWELL
CF: Teemu PUKKI

Granted, it does seem like we're sniffing around Pereira with interest and if we are, he would certainly be envisaged as a starter, but considering how open we often were down the middle of the park in our previous season, along with attacking a more vulnerable defence due to the lack of fit centre-halves, could this be a Plan B or even the Plan A?

[canarydan23 4,770]

23 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Bit of archaeology to bring this thread back up in the light of the Buendia sale, its timing, and some of our old weaknesses last time in the Premier League. Made more sense than starting a new one.

Does anyone else think three deeper-lying midfielders instead of two could well be the modus operandi (obviously, we need to buy at least one for depth)? I'm thinking something like this:

GK: Tim KRUL
RB: Max AARONS (assuming he stays)
RCB: Grant HANLEY
LCB: Ben GIBSON
LB: Dimitrios GIANNOULIS
CM: Jacob SÖRENSEN
CM: Oliver SKIPP (assuming it's true he's back on loan, otherwise Lukas RUPP)
CM: Kenny MCLEAN
LAM: Todd CANTWELL (assuming he stays)
RAM: Kieran DOWELL
CF: Teemu PUKKI

Granted, it does seem like we're sniffing around Pereira with interest and if we are, he would certainly be envisaged as a starter, but considering how open we often were down the middle of the park in our previous season, along with attacking a more vulnerable defence due to the lack of fit centre-halves, could this be a Plan B or even the Plan A?

If that's our best 11 come the end of the transfer window I think we'll struggle to get past the 21 points we managed last time, never mind stay up.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a formation like this as a Plan B.

Edited June 7, 2021 by canarydan23

[TheGunnShow 7,379]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

If that's our best 11 come the end of the transfer window I think we'll struggle to get past the 21 points we managed last time, never mind stay up.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a formation like this as a Plan B.

If we keep our defenders fit, we'll probably get past 21. I do think a lot of us are forgetting that exceptional state of affairs with so many missing centre-halves (and the corresponding effect it had on our midfield). Not remotely saying we'd have stayed up, but we wouldn't have been so handicapped.

We're certainly a centre-half, at least one more defensive midfielder and a striker/attacking midfielder light.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,804]

So uh.. Something like this? 🤔

[lake district canary 4,836]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Bit of archaeology to bring this thread back up in the light of the Buendia sale, its timing, and some of our old weaknesses last time in the Premier League. Made more sense than starting a new one.

Does anyone else think three deeper-lying midfielders instead of two could well be the modus operandi (obviously, we need to buy at least one for depth)? I'm thinking something like this:

GK: Tim KRUL
RB: Max AARONS (assuming he stays)
RCB: Grant HANLEY
LCB: Ben GIBSON
LB: Dimitrios GIANNOULIS
CM: Jacob SÖRENSEN
CM: Oliver SKIPP (assuming it's true he's back on loan, otherwise Lukas RUPP)
CM: Kenny MCLEAN
LAM: Todd CANTWELL (assuming he stays)
RAM: Kieran DOWELL
CF: Teemu PUKKI

Granted, it does seem like we're sniffing around Pereira with interest and if we are, he would certainly be envisaged as a starter, but considering how open we often were down the middle of the park in our previous season, along with attacking a more vulnerable defence due to the lack of fit centre-halves, could this be a Plan B or even the Plan A?

I like it a lot and think we could do pretty well with this line up.  Idah perhaps in there too, as an attacking alternative for one of them.  Idah could be our trump card this season.

[TheGunnShow 7,379]

32 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I like it a lot and think we could do pretty well with this line up.  Idah perhaps in there too, as an attacking alternative for one of them.  Idah could be our trump card this season.

Placheta's the one most likely to leap for me, but there's definitely an argument for Idah - his combination of size, strength and pace could certainly cause problems and both of them would be pretty suited to playing on counters.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,261]

Not for me, stick with the 4231 but change the roles and personnel instead. The shape isn't so important and the formation we currently use works well for the style of football we want to play. 

The last two seasons we've played with two attacking full backs, one DM and one box to box midfielder, 3 no.10's and Pukki pushing up on the shoulder.

 

Sorry for the Football Manager type role names, I can't think of better alternatives. 

 

For me I'd just tweak that a bit so instead of

---------------------GK-------------------------

WB-------CB------------CB-----------WB

-------------DM---------BBM----------------

AM--------------AM-------------------AM

------------------STR------------------------

When we attack that leaves us with just 3 players back usually and it gets congested on the edge of the opposition box with so many technical players trying to play intricate football. 

I'd try to tweak the roles to something like this

---------------------GK-------------------------

FB-------CB------------CB-----------WB

-------------DM---------DM----------------

W---------------AM-----------------AM

------------------STR------------------------

 

You can break with a bit of pace here with the winger, it'll get less congested around the box with only Cantwell, Dowell and Pukki trying to play it around, we'd use a more defensive full back to cover the winger and I'd ask McLean to play deeper to help mop out counter attacks and win headers infront of the defence

 

 

[TheGunnShow 7,379]

11 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Not for me, stick with the 4231 but change the roles and personnel instead. The shape isn't so important and the formation we currently use works well for the style of football we want to play. 

The last two seasons we've played with two attacking full backs, one DM and one box to box midfielder, 3 no.10's and Pukki pushing up on the shoulder.

 

Sorry for the Football Manager type role names, I can't think of better alternatives. 

 

For me I'd just tweak that a bit so instead of

---------------------GK-------------------------

WB-------CB------------CB-----------WB

-------------DM---------BBM----------------

AM--------------AM-------------------AM

------------------STR------------------------

When we attack that leaves us with just 3 players back usually and it gets congested on the edge of the opposition box with so many technical players trying to play intricate football. 

I'd try to tweak the roles to something like this

---------------------GK-------------------------

FB-------CB------------CB-----------WB

-------------DM---------DM----------------

W---------------AM-----------------AM

------------------STR------------------------

 

You can break with a bit of pace here with the winger, it'll get less congested around the box with only Cantwell, Dowell and Pukki trying to play it around, we'd use a more defensive full back to cover the winger and I'd ask McLean to play deeper to help mop out counter attacks and win headers infront of the defence

 

 

Very fair point, I'm basically saying with a 4-3-2-1 there's more emphasis on the full-back as ever to provide that width as the aim is to gum up the middle of the park more when not in possession.

[TheGunnShow 7,379]

Bumping again rather than starting a new thread, and considering the loan signing of Gilmour and the permanent signing of Lees-Medou, not to mention it looks like we're still looking at Billing - who by accounts of Bournemouth fans looks like more of a box-to-box midfielder rather than a purely defensive one for best results. I'm still thinking this is either going to be Plan A, or at the very least, the most common Plan B. I will be surprised if we play with three attacking midfielders considering we struggled to keep it tight down the middle of the park last time.

(Gotta admit, I think we're looking at the wrong one from Bournemouth, I still think, ceteris paribus, we should look at Lerma instead if we want a more defensive midfielder).