New Tory Leader

[PurpleCanary 5,582]

On 08/05/2022 at 12:56, horsefly said:

Adam Wagner, the expert go-to barrister on Covid law, is on Sky saying he sees nothing in the leaked document that suggests a breach of Covid laws, or would remotely suggest the police are likely to fine Starmer.

Starmer will announce that he will resign if he is found guilty. In a sense he is getting boxed into a corner and has to, but there is more to it than that. He doesn't just detest Johnson's blatant amorality. It offends him on a personal level, and he cannot be seen to be down in the gutter with him. But politically it is the smart move; on pretty much every level.

[Badger 2,412]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

2010 was a lifetime ago (as is 2004 when the Orange Book you are so vexed by was written). That result is no longer possible. For me that was the last of the post-Thatcher/neo-liberal elections. Nationalism, Brexitism, Climate Crisis, identity politics, the banking crisis & Covid have destroyed that landscape.

The lesson the LibDems have taken to heart is that under no circumstances enter a coalition in a FPP system. There can also be no coalition between Nationlist SNP and Unionist Labour. However, there is a window for a confidence and supply arrangement and a minority Labour government. There is no similar window for the Tories, it is win a majority or bust

Except that Ed Davey is an Orange Book liberal!

"The MP for Kingston and Surbiton was one of the contributors to the ‘Orange Book’ in 2004, which came to be the symbol of the wing of the party which was most identified with market solutions. As a minister he set up the ‘Green Growth group’, which brought together climate change ministers across Europe to promote a liberalised European energy market and a global carbon market. At home, in the 2013 UK Energy Act, Davey established a series of measures, including capacity market auctions introduced last year, to liberalise the UK’s electricity market. The ultra-free market Institute of Economic Affairs found that Davey was the minister in the coalition government who had been most succesful in advancing marketisation."

https://sourcenews.scot/lib-dem-leader-contender-ed-davey-defends-his-climate-change-record-in-government-commonspace-interview/

 

You really need to understand the Orange Book. It wasn't just a short-term policy fix but a long term examination of the soul, beliefs and cause for the party. I suppose a similar example would be Crossland's Democratic Socialism, written in the early 60s but still being discussed 20+ years later. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Badger
Added link

[Herman 9,825]

43 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Starmer will announce that he will resign if he is found guilty. In a sense he is getting boxed into a corner and has to, but there is more to it than that. He doesn't just detest Johnson's blatant amorality. It offends him on a personal level, and he cannot be seen to be down in the gutter with him. But politically it is the smart move; on pretty much every level.

I feel it is a case of calling their bluff and by the sounds of it tory whips are getting twitchy. 

[PurpleCanary 5,582]

5 minutes ago, Herman said:

I feel it is a case of calling their bluff and by the sounds of it tory whips are getting twitchy. 

Not just them, but the editor of the Daily Mail may start to wonder if its campaign over Beergate is going to prove such a good idea. Unintended consequences and all that.

[BigFish 1,988]

[PurpleCanary 5,582]

41 minutes ago, Badger said:

Except that Ed Davey is an Orange Book liberal!

"The MP for Kingston and Surbiton was one of the contributors to the ‘Orange Book’ in 2004, which came to be the symbol of the wing of the party which was most identified with market solutions. As a minister he set up the ‘Green Growth group’, which brought together climate change ministers across Europe to promote a liberalised European energy market and a global carbon market. At home, in the 2013 UK Energy Act, Davey established a series of measures, including capacity market auctions introduced last year, to liberalise the UK’s electricity market. The ultra-free market Institute of Economic Affairs found that Davey was the minister in the coalition government who had been most succesful in advancing marketisation."

https://sourcenews.scot/lib-dem-leader-contender-ed-davey-defends-his-climate-change-record-in-government-commonspace-interview/

 

You really need to understand the Orange Book. It wasn't just a short-term policy fix but a long term examination of the soul, beliefs and cause for the party. I suppose a similar example would be Crossland's Democratic Socialism, written in the early 60s but still being discussed 20+ years later. 

But events happen, Badger. The Orange Book was written long before Brexit. The LibDems could not possibly support a Hard Brexit Tory government when the alternative would be some kind of alliance with Labour and all the other parties (apart from the Unionists) that would want to renegotiate towards a softer Brexit. And probably with the longer term aim of either rejoining or doing a Norway.

Edited May 9, 2022 by PurpleCanary

[BigFish 1,988]

39 minutes ago, Badger said:

Except that Ed Davey is an Orange Book liberal!

"The MP for Kingston and Surbiton was one of the contributors to the ‘Orange Book’ in 2004, which came to be the symbol of the wing of the party which was most identified with market solutions. As a minister he set up the ‘Green Growth group’, which brought together climate change ministers across Europe to promote a liberalised European energy market and a global carbon market. At home, in the 2013 UK Energy Act, Davey established a series of measures, including capacity market auctions introduced last year, to liberalise the UK’s electricity market. The ultra-free market Institute of Economic Affairs found that Davey was the minister in the coalition government who had been most succesful in advancing marketisation."

https://sourcenews.scot/lib-dem-leader-contender-ed-davey-defends-his-climate-change-record-in-government-commonspace-interview/

 

You really need to understand the Orange Book. It wasn't just a short-term policy fix but a long term examination of the soul, beliefs and cause for the party. I suppose a similar example would be Crossland's Democratic Socialism, written in the early 60s but still being discussed 20+ years later. 

No, I really don't.

It is an 18 year old manifesto for solutions to problems that no longer apply. Most of the authors ceased to be active in politics many years ago. I do think that if the LibDems missed a trick by not picking Layla Moran over Davey. The suggestion that any of the parties are in the same place as they were in 2004 doesn't really seem credible. Neo-liberalism is unlikely to win any significant support anywhere except amongst a few diehards in the old Conservative Party.

 

[horsefly 4,315]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Starmer will announce that he will resign if he is found guilty. In a sense he is getting boxed into a corner and has to, but there is more to it than that. He doesn't just detest Johnson's blatant amorality. It offends him on a personal level, and he cannot be seen to be down in the gutter with him. But politically it is the smart move; on pretty much every level.

Absolutely! I think the only thing missing in his statement was to call on Johnson to make exactly the same commitment to resign if he is found guilty of further breaches of the Covid laws.

[ricardo 7,401]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

I feel it is a case of calling their bluff and by the sounds of it tory whips are getting twitchy. 

Seems to have knotted his own noose.

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1488176626642923521


Keir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer
Honesty and decency matter.

After months of denials the Prime Minister is now under criminal investigations for breaking his own lockdown laws.

He needs to do the decent thing and resign.

Edited May 9, 2022 by ricardo

[Herman 9,825]

Not really Ricardo. Everyone knew from the available evidence that Bozo was already guilty and the police investigation was to slow the whole process down. Unlucky, but you chose to support that amoral ****stick.

[Herman 9,825]

Client journalism, don't you just love it.

That got a bit mangled.

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Herman

[horsefly 4,315]

24 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Seems to have knotted his own noose.

https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1488176626642923521


Keir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer
Honesty and decency matter.

After months of denials the Prime Minister is now under criminal investigations for breaking his own lockdown laws.

He needs to do the decent thing and resign.

Not in the slightest. There is a crucial difference between Starmer and Johnson. Starmer at no stage has denied the work event at the Durham miners Club happened. Johnson stood up in parliament week after week and denied there had been events inside no.10. Don't forget either that Johnson said that he was disgusted by the Allegra Stratton video and further that it was right she should resign. She hadn't even attended a party, unlike himself on several occasions.

[horsefly 4,315]

19 minutes ago, Herman said:

Client journalism, don't you just love it.

That got a bit mangled.

 

hilarious levels of hypocrisy. All of them have been calling for him to say he will resign if he is issued with a penalty, the minute he does, thereby pulling the carpet from under their feet, they all bleat about putting unfair pressure on the police (something they have been doing non-stop for the past week). Unscrupulous morons!

[ricardo 7,401]

The entire thing is a farce the MET have set such a low bar that if everyone who bent the rules paid a fine we could eliminate half the National Debt.

There’s a war in Ukraine and a threat of Nuclear Armageddon,  China is mostly closed  down,  petrol is  £1.70 a litre and inflation is approaching 8%. Those with a mortgage are about to get a kick in the balls - yet  the most important stories in the news right now are about who should get FPN's from two years ago.

[Herman 9,825]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

hilarious levels of hypocrisy. All of them have been calling for him to say he will resign if he is issued with a penalty, the minute he does, thereby pulling the carpet from under their feet, they all bleat about putting unfair pressure on the police (something they have been doing non-stop for the past week). Unscrupulous morons!

Harry Cole,Hope and numerous other right wing shill hacks are having a glorious online meltdown.😀

And Ricardo.😉

Edited May 9, 2022 by Herman

[horsefly 4,315]

10 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The entire thing is a farce the MET have set such a low bar that if everyone who bent the rules paid a fine we could eliminate half the National Debt.

There’s a war in Ukraine and a threat of Nuclear Armageddon,  China is mostly closed  down,  petrol is  £1.70 a litre and inflation is approaching 8%. Those with a mortgage are about to get a kick in the balls - yet  the most important stories in the news right now are about who should get FPN's from two years ago.

Tell that to those who couldn't be at their dying relative's bedside. The bar is not being set low, it's being set by indicators of obvious non-work socialising. I repeat the following email yet again: 

“Hi all, after what has been an incredibly busy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No 10 garden this evening. Please join us from 6pm and bring your own booze!”

Explain to the rest of us how fines for attendees at this prearranged party would be setting the bar low.

[ricardo 7,401]

8 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Explain to the rest of us how fines for attendees at this prearranged party would be setting the bar low.

Of course the bar was set too low. Do I think Starmer should be investigated? no, its far too trivial but so is much of the Downing St stuff.   

Most of the people for the birthday cake incident were there for a meeting or were working together in any event , Then the PMs wife  entered the room - unannounced and uninvited - with the cake. For this incident, it appears that everyone in the room at the time was issued an FPN. What were they supposed to do, run off down Whitehall? Some poor bastards got fines through no fault of their own.

If the Police set such a low broad sweep as that then anyone anywhere can get caught up in it. They've made a rod for their own backs.

[horsefly 4,315]

Just now, ricardo said:

Of course the bar was set too low. Do I think Starmer should be investigated? no, its far too trivial but so is much of the Downing St stuff.   

Most of the people for the birthday cake incident were there for a meeting or were working together in any event , Then the PMs wife  entered the room - unannounced and uninvited - with the cake. For this incident, it appears that everyone in the room at the time was issued an FPN. What were they supposed to do, run off down Whitehall? Some poor bastards got fines through no fault of their own.

If the Police set such a low broad sweep as that then anyone anywhere can get caught up in it. They've made a rod for their own backs.

Interesting that you haven't said a word about the email from Johnson's principal private secretary (I've quoted it 3 times now but not a mention in reply). So do tell us whether you believe that event did not clearly break the Covid laws.

[ricardo 7,401]

25 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Interesting that you haven't said a word about the email from Johnson's principal private secretary (I've quoted it 3 times now but not a mention in reply). So do tell us whether you believe that event did not clearly break the Covid laws.

Irrelevant to my point. Those obviously meet the what I would consider a breach of the rules. Unfortunately for everyone else the MET have introduced a much lower threshold so little wonder that some people are getting very worried indeed. SKS to name just one.

I expect they'll be round for me soon with my 5am drive into the country to walk around a field.

[Yellow Fever 3,835]

Check Mate.

Boris (and the Torys and the Mail) now look like the utter law unto themselves ne'er do wells that they most clearly are.

if (although unlikely) Starmer fined he goes but takes the governemet with him as their position would be totally untenable and a joke.

If he's cleared then Johnson (plus the other convicts) still has to go or are they happy to be lesser men amd women.

What's Johnson childish excuse going to be ... I know.. Cary made me do It!

[ricardo 7,401]

[horsefly 4,315]

42 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Irrelevant to my point. Those obviously meet the what I would consider a breach of the rules. Unfortunately for everyone else the MET have introduced a much lower threshold so little wonder that some people are getting very worried indeed. SKS to name just one.

I expect they'll be round for me soon with my 5am drive into the country to walk around a field.

I don't think Starmer is at all worried, indeed he has played a blinder. Covid law expert, the barrister Adam Wagner, has already appeared on Sky yesterday saying the leaked work schedule fell within the legal requirements. There is a very high likelihood that Johnson will receive more fines, if so, whatever ultimately happens to Starmer, Johnson refusing to resign would look exactly what it is, an utterly dishonourable disgrace. Think a lot of Johnson's supporters are beginning to realise they have been outfoxed by Starmer, and have seriously screwed up on this one.

Edited May 9, 2022 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,315]

46 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I expect they'll be round for me soon with my 5am drive into the country to walk around a field

I've passed on the info to the rozzers.

[Daz Sparks 1,184]

If anyone seriously doesn't see that Starmer's stance on this matter is anything other than a clear line the sand, then they and the right wing press are welcome to each other, and if there is any justice they'll all be going to hell in a handcart.

Below is the salient part of his statement:- 

In a statement at Labour HQ, he said: “If the police decide to issue me with a FPN, I would of course do the right thing and step down … The British public deserve politicians who think the rules apply to them.”

After hours of agonising with key aides, Starmer said he intended to draw a distinction with Boris Johnson’s approach. “I stand for honour and integrity, and the belief that politics is a force for good, and we shouldn’t all be dragged down by this cynical belief that all politicians are the same. And I am here to make it clear that I am not the same,” he said. “We are not all the same. I am different.”

[ricardo 7,401]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

I've passed on the info to the rozzers.

Thanks, I'll  hand myself in at the Police station on Earlham Rd tomorrow morning once the lynch mob has gone home.

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by ricardo

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Check Mate.

Boris (and the Torys and the Mail) now look like the utter law unto themselves ne'er do wells that they most clearly are.

if (although unlikely) Starmer fined he goes but takes the governemet with him as their position would be totally untenable and a joke.

If he's cleared then Johnson (plus the other convicts) still has to go or are they happy to be lesser men amd women.

What's Johnson childish excuse going to be ... I know.. Cary made me do It!

Spot on, although when you think about it 'Cary made me do it' would be far more plausible than anything he has come up with so far 😂

[horsefly 4,315]

12 hours ago, ricardo said:

Thanks, I'll  hand myself in at the Police station on Earlham Rd tomorrow morning once the lynch mob has gone home.

 

If you could make a video of the event, many of us would be most grateful.

[BroadstairsR 2,206]

Starmer f -ucked up. Quite big actually considering his previously well publicised righteous stance.

What sort of working environment, ongoing or not, encourages the drinking of alcohol?

Booze is booze, after all, I should know.

A working environment is a very thin excuse to excuse a takeaway styled drinking session, considering the restrictions placed upon us all at the time. Apparently there were dozens present.

What the f-uck!

AND, what exactly is this "work" that they talk about? Work? My bum!

Planning doorstep raids ad infinitum? Or what else?

Folding leaflets? Arranging photo shoots? Discussing the hem on Rayner's skirt? 

I quite like Kier, his first name resonates with my youth, but there seems to be a falseness there. Barrister talk along with an inherent need to exaggerate the facts that conflict, whilst making the least of the obvious that comply, and including defending the indefensible. It's what they do. It's all they know.

In truth, both him and Johnson should go. They have had their moment in the Sun and sufficient to for them to acquiesce to their particular talents.

A pair of hypocrites. To say nothing of all their other shortcomings.

[ricardo 7,401]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

If you could make a video of the event, many of us would be most grateful.

There was a big queue. Boris and SKS were having a barney at the front.

Sue Gray to hold an inquiry.

Edited May 10, 2022 by ricardo

[A Load of Squit 5,221]

16 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

 

What sort of working environment, ongoing or not, encourages the drinking of alcohol?

 

Public Houses, working mens clubs, restaurants, nightclub, my office when we work late and have pizza delivered (not strictly 'encourages' but 'allows') and when I was student I worked part-time at Texas Homecare (that ages me!) we had a crate of beer and fish and chips when we did stock taking.