New Tory Leader

[A Load of Squit 5,224]

Looking forward to SKS using the line 'He's a nonentity, get him out of here" when referring to the current PM at PMQ's.

[sonyc 5,541]

On 31/10/2022 at 22:52, sonyc said:

According to Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell in their podcast, Steve Baker was quite a figure behind the fall of Theresa May, Johnson as well as Truss (and then he turned). And of course he (and the ERG) are behind Braverman being in her post (and of course the HOME Secretary post). So that makes Sunak's decision to include her clearer. Still, our national politics is being adversely affected by Brexit, let alone our economy.

Brexit has meant a wasted 5 years plus of internal (internecine) battles. Labour too are afraid to confront it squarely. In my opinion. Of course, the ruling administration is more important to criticise in terms of its (supposed) task of governing.

Those ERG folk are still pulling the strings.

Interesting too to hear from the same podcast that former French president Hollande  told Cameron that when you have a referendum there are so many reasons that people CAN use to say no to remaining in the EU. But Cameron did not take his strong advice.

Brexit and the Tory Party 2016 onwards is one hell of a toxic mix.

 

I'm putting a link here to the The Rest is Politics daily podcasts. They are managed by Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart and interest in them has been growing really quickly.

When the mainstream media news sometimes gets your teeth on edge because of a perceived bias or lack of journalistic thrust then these 40+ minute podcasts are a breath of fresh air. I think podcasts may one day become even more important (I'm just a recent convert).

Campbell and Stewart make a good 'team' and there is no little humour. Secondly, they are getting on a range of great speakers. Hollande is a good one for starters. And you get to hear about stories you thought you knew but now get new angles on.

Anyway, worth my plug and it should suit all political colours for most posters.

https://chartable.com/podcasts/the-rest-is-politics/episodes/126826480-francois-hollande-on-putin-obama-and-brexit

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by sonyc

[Mr Apples 1,335]

Has anyone seen Sunak recently or has he taken up Truss' fallback position of hiding under a desk after realising they have bitten off more than they can chew? 🤣

Apples

[Yellow Fever 3,844]

19 minutes ago, Mr Apples said:

Has anyone seen Sunak recently or has he taken up Truss' fallback position of hiding under a desk after realising they have bitten off more than they can chew? 🤣

Apples

Check the fridges first.

[Herman 9,842]

15 hours ago, Well b back said:

Johnson going to COP 27, now it appears Sunak is going as well. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63478120

Yep, u-turned like a master. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Yep, u-turned like a master. 

Keep your enemies closer.

[sonyc 5,541]

On 01/11/2022 at 10:29, Yellow Fever said:

This might sound controversial but I think in many democracies with social media, fake (or downright lies as news) and echo chambers we may actually be seeing the limits of this form of democracy. It's far too open to manipulation by people acting in bad faith be that Trump or Putin leading to disastrous outcomes. 

We may well need to eventually consider some form of better 'informed' democracy' and indeed question the current universal suffrage. After all the Greek 'democracy' was not a universal suffrage model!  One thought I put up on here is not only a lower voting age but also an upper one as well! The aspirations and (future) requirements of the young and working are very different to those in their dotage.

In truth we need simply better education and global awareness for all.

ARP hat on.

Was just thinking of your post when I was in a queue today and a man and a woman (unrelated) starting to talk about TV and then Trump. The man was wondering what Biden might do about Trump but the woman just said "well he (Trump) won the last election didn't he" ...the bloke felt awkward and mentioned about independent voting verification. To which she replied, "well if you look into these things more deeply, and don't believe the BBC then it's obvious he won". The conversation just ended.

I shouldn't have been surprised that a 40+ year old woman from the north of England was / is a Trump supporter. But she was (mentioning that Biden was very old, therefore no good. His speeches apparently are far worse than Trump's ever were. Go figure, as they say).

I realise people like to be definite in their views and it's difficult to debate matters. But, people still believe in Trump, despite listening to him for years and having seen his actions (Capitol Hill). 

How do people get educated? I suppose from all kinds of media. Yet, the worry for me is the ability to challenge and remain curious, uncertain enough. Populism is a great way to brainwash a lot of people. 

I feel the same about swing voters. For me, it's a value set. How can you not know your general political views? I suppose the answer is that our main two parties are in truth far more similar to each other than they are different. It's a continuum for some. When it comes to someone like Trump though I cannot see many shades of grey! I do not understand why many people this side of the Atlantic Ocean would support such a person.

There we have it. I'm like Herman, I don't think I really have much faith in the general voting public. And I'm not being elitist when I say that, even though I hear and watch many of those vox pops 'on the street' interviews and find myself putting my head in my hands.

Edited November 2, 2022 by sonyc

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

51 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Was just thinking of your post when I was in a queue today and a man and a woman (unrelated) starting to talk about TV and then Trump. The man was wondering what Biden might do about Trump but the woman just said "well he (Trump) won the last election didn't he" ...the bloke felt awkward and mentioned about independent voting verification. To which she replied, "well if you look into these things more deeply, and don't believe the BBC then it's obvious he won". The conversation just ended.

I shouldn't have been surprised that a 40+ year old woman from the north of England was / is a Trump supporter. But she was (mentioning that Biden was very old, therefore no good. His speeches apparently are far worse than Trump's ever were. Go figure, as they say).

I realise people like to be definite in their views and it's difficult to debate matters. But, people still believe in Trump, despite listening to him for years and having seen his actions (Capitol Hill). 

How do people get educated? I suppose from all kinds of media. Yet, the worry for me is the ability to challenge and remain curious, uncertain enough. Populism is a great way to brainwash a lot of people. 

I feel the same about swing voters. For me, it's a value set. How can you not know your general political views? I suppose the answer is that our main two parties are in truth far more similar to each other than they are different. It's a continuum for some. When it comes to someone like Trump though I cannot see many shades of grey! I do not understand why many people this side of the Atlantic Ocean would support such a person.

There we have it. I'm like Herman, I don't think I really have much faith in the general voting public. And I'm not being elitist when I say that, even though I hear and watch many of those vox pops 'on the street' interviews and find myself putting my head in my hands.

Its very easy to be arrogant about other peoples views. But just as the same as their is good and bad, there is informed and uninformed.

Just as I believe there are some completely stupid allowed to vote in this country as well. The Brexit vote to many was about racism. Especially from Northern people, or am I being stereotypical. I do not live in an area densely populated by Blacks and Asians. But too many seemed to think Brexit would stop Blacks and Asians being allowed into the country.

But it suited those wanting Brexit for other reasons to let these people to continue to think that way. In fact, why not lie about it and make it seem worse. And the people I am referring to, or am I being stereotypical, were unlikely to investigate those claims to see if they were untrue or exaggerated. Because someone who was "posh" was agreeing with them. Blimey says Eckythump, me and t guvnors think the same. And they agree wi me that thats the reason for problems. Pinching our jobs, houses, shops.

Trump uses exactly the same tactics. Use a big lobby of thick, poor, stupid people and tell them they are salt of the earth and its  big business on NY causing their problems. And those Mexicans. Millions of them streaming over the border. I think he quoted * million since Biden came to power. Just work out how many a day that is in two years. Over 23K a day.

In other words, a monumental lie. And the thickos can't be bothered to check. Especially when he says that nobody would have got in illegally if he was in charge. He told them he created the greatest economy ever. Another monumental lie easily checked. Both previous Democratic POTUS had better economies.

The man who exemplifies big business riding rough over the small man. The man who wouldn't let certain people into his hotels. He wouldn't have any of the Brotherhood or Peacekeepers anywhere near his properties.

Johnson and Rees Mogg have disdain for us. Mogg doesn't even disguise it. And the stock answer from the thickos is "they are all like it". Really? Have you anything to back up that pathetic remark? Of course not. "Yes, but Boris discovered the vaccine". "He got us through Covid". I give up.

[Mr Apples 1,335]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

Yep, u-turned like a master. 

The one consistently well executed Tory policy. 🤣

Apples

[sonyc 5,541]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Have you anything to back up that pathetic remark? Of course not. "Yes, but Boris discovered the vaccine". "He got us through Covid". I give up

Yep. Agree. And now they can say "ah, but Corbyn" to anything to deflect. He had his faults. Yet, it wasn't like he was in power for 12 years. 

[A Load of Squit 5,224]

Anyone who doesn't think there will  be a hard border between England and Scotland if they get independence need to see this.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by A Load of Squit

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

On 01/11/2022 at 22:12, TeemuVanBasten said:

"Power corrupts" as they say. 

Labour under Blair ended up going the same way, most of the worst cases from the expenses scandal were reds.

 

Power does corrupt, especially centralised power, but it is the time we give them in power, as well as the fact that nothing at the doorstep counts, aspirational promises that require no intention, if they can be bothered to actually canvass without camera's filming their campaign and giving us the impression that they are having a full canvass of a constituency.

Power corrupts because we have no control over politicians once elected, they become the vassals of big industry, the markets and the off shoring establishment. If we could only select representatives at random, for one year, with a re-call mechanism should the randomly chosen person forget that they represent  the needs of their constituencies, a one year service which will stop corruption, with no rights for livelong pensions, for a good wage. Automatic re selection by political parties who themselves would then be superfluous, would cease. Those chosen at random would group around the most important issues, and anybody with another agenda other than to represent urgent policies and their constituency, would be clearly visible to all other representatives, because they would stick out like sore thumbs, trying to tell everyone about their personal goals.

Power can be limited and still work for constituencies, its would save 300 million at every election and ensure that we are in control of our representative during their years worth of service to us all.

[Herman 9,842]

Sad, breaking news. Andrew Bridgen is being suspended. But not from a tall bridge. 

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

On 01/11/2022 at 10:13, Herman said:

I haven't. I have lost faith in the British electorate and will never underestimate their chance to do something stupid. 

Sorta, I'd argue this is where the media are not aggressive enough in holding the powers that be to account. I do think most would want to be fair and reasoned, but media coverage is not giving them the chance to be as informed as they need to be.

[Yellow Fever 3,844]

25 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sorta, I'd argue this is where the media are not aggressive enough in holding the powers that be to account. I do think most would want to be fair and reasoned, but media coverage is not giving them the chance to be as informed as they need to be.

It a good point - particularly with the the BBC etc. A lie is a lie and should be loudly called out.

As to the media generally much of the 'tabloid' press is partisan (let alone the social media echo chambers) so no hope of factual discussions there. Trump won in 2020 you know 😞

Topically - its interesting that apparently we don't have a 'record' number of asylum seekers - it's just that rather more used to arrive hidden in trucks as opposed to small boats. It's the (recent) processing of them that's gone to pot (and the removal of pre-Brexit options). Was much higher in naughties.

https://public.tableau.com/views/Asylum2022/2?:language=en-US&:embed=y&:embed_code_version=3&:loadOrderID=1&:display_count=y&:origin=viz_share_link

Edited November 3, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

3 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It a good point - particularly with the the BBC etc. A lie is a lie and should be loudly called out.

As to the media generally much of the 'tabloid' press is partisan (let alone the social media echo chambers) so no hope of factual discussions there. Trump won in 2020 you know 😞

Topically - its interesting that apparently we don't have a 'record' number of asylum seekers - it's just that rather more used to arrive hidden in trucks as opposed to small boats. It the (recent) processing of them that's gone to pot (and the removal of pre-Brexit options). Was much higher in naughties.

https://public.tableau.com/views/Asylum2022/2?:language=en-US&:embed=y&:embed_code_version=3&:loadOrderID=1&:display_count=y&:origin=viz_share_link

Sums up for me why the BBC cannot be quite neutral on domestic affairs (and the notion it has a 'left-wing bias' is absurd, it's obviously a 'pro-governmental one), especially when a government starts rattling sabres on licensing fees as a financial Sword of Damocles.

For me it was clear that Johnson and cohorts were happy to use that as a means to hamstring the BBC from being quite as critical or questioning of their government as the BBC should be.

[Herman 9,842]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sorta, I'd argue this is where the media are not aggressive enough in holding the powers that be to account. I do think most would want to be fair and reasoned, but media coverage is not giving them the chance to be as informed as they need to be.

Our press are so intrinsically linked with the powers that be that it pays for them to keep their readership as ill informed as possible. As you say, this is where the BBC has been serious lacking. It's too scared to rock the boat therefore giving the government an easy ride. 

[Well b back 3,285]

5 hours ago, Herman said:

Sad, breaking news. Andrew Bridgen is being suspended. But not from a tall bridge. 

But allegedly the action has only been taken because of his support for Boris Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63498136

Edited November 3, 2022 by Well b back

[Pyro Pete 1,931]

 

[Herman 9,842]

11 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

 

👍

Someone posted up a NF campaign leaflet from the 70s and it was scarily similar to what these scumbags are doing.

[sonyc 5,541]

As well as their policies (and including such comments about invasions by Braverman) it isn't just that the Tory Party have taken us back to the days of an underlying current of fascism of the 1930s but they've also managed to lead the country into recession (in the news today it is forecast that the UK recession will be the longest since the 1930s). Truss and Kwarteng have deepened the malaise. 

Incredible that we also actually have a Rwanda policy even though our level of asylum claims are far fewer than most European countries. Actual human beings farmed off. Incredible too that there will now have to be further austerity cuts. 

There cannot be many people who can support this lot can there? Look what 'taking back control' has unleashed on the poor country. Apart from the very rich, nearly everyone else is empoverished in one way or another.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

This is the arrogance that still pervades our nation.

Tory members were poised to choose their next leader, as they did only weeks ago when they elected Ms Truss instead of Mr Sunak. But this time, members were denied a vote, as Mr Sunak was elected unopposed as the only nominee with enough support among Tory MPs.

For some members, especially those who backed Ms Truss in the last Tory leadership contest, Mr Sunak's appeal for unity rang hollow. Despite his conciliatory tone, those members feel ignored, or worse snubbed, by Tory MPs who they feel have overturned their will and sparked a fire of discontent at the party's grassroots.

"They have made the grassroots feel used and not needed," Tamara Wood, chairwoman of Telford Conservatives in western England, told the BBC.

"The Conservative Party is a big machine and they have excluded a very big part of us," she added.

She is one of an estimated 160,000 Conservative members who would have had a say, had the latest Tory leadership contest gone that far.

The fact that it didn't has angered some members so much, they felt compelled to resign their party membership.

One of them was Tim Carpenter-Balmer, who said "MPs have effectively said the membership are contemptible and if I hung around I would be agreeing with them".

He said when he and other members voted for Ms Truss during the summer, Tory MPs who backed Mr Sunak "were determined that she was going to fail".

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

9 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

One of them was Tim Carpenter-Balmer, who said "MPs have effectively said the membership are contemptible and if I hung around I would be agreeing with them".

 

Well, I don't find myself agreeing with Tory MPs very often but it seems that on this occasion they were spot on 😂

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

17 hours ago, sonyc said:

As well as their policies (and including such comments about invasions by Braverman) it isn't just that the Tory Party have taken us back to the days of an underlying current of fascism of the 1930s but they've also managed to lead the country into recession (in the news today it is forecast that the UK recession will be the longest since the 1930s). Truss and Kwarteng have deepened the malaise. 

Incredible that we also actually have a Rwanda policy even though our level of asylum claims are far fewer than most European countries. Actual human beings farmed off. Incredible too that there will now have to be further austerity cuts. 

There cannot be many people who can support this lot can there? Look what 'taking back control' has unleashed on the poor country. Apart from the very rich, nearly everyone else is empoverished in one way or another.

It boils down - at least as far as I can see it - to this:

A lot of these sorts package it up as freedom. And who wouldn't want that?

But the question is, what is freedom FROM? And this is the bit where I think we're getting deliberately misinformed. (I think I'll start a different thread on that when I've finished this proofread).

Edited November 4, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[sonyc 5,541]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

It boils down - at least as far as I can see it - to this:

A lot of these sorts package it up as freedom. And who wouldn't want that?

But the question is, what is freedom FROM? And this is the bit where I think we're getting deliberately misinformed. (I think I'll start a different thread on that when I've finished this proofread).

Erich Fromm used the terms "freedom from" and "freedom to" in his works on fascism. 

Very well worth a look up TGS.

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

Just now, sonyc said:

Erich Fromm used the terms "freedom from" and "freedom to" in his works on fascism. 

Very well worth a look up TGS.

I know he did, but not read about it yet. Interestingly, Andrew Marr basically said similar in his critique on Thatcher in his A History of Modern Britain, as he noted the same thing - defining what people are freed from is easy to set out, but establishing what they are freed into is a wholly different matter.

[sonyc 5,541]

22 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I know he did, but not read about it yet. Interestingly, Andrew Marr basically said similar in his critique on Thatcher in his A History of Modern Britain, as he noted the same thing - defining what people are freed from is easy to set out, but establishing what they are freed into is a wholly different matter.

Exactly, yes.

This is from Wikipedia but it is as good a summary as anything. I have Fromm's book (The Fear of Freedom) and is one of those books I will always keep (I'm a sad sort of person) because:

(a) It is universal in the themes he discusses - and how history has a horrible way of repeating itself. He talks about fascism and the underlying conditions from which it breeds. Looking at the latest incarnations of the Tory Party and you can see it all.

(b) He also talks about what it is to have a happy life, to be fulfilled, to actually live your life and what love is! That is some feat in a book.

No wonder it has such good reviews too. As relevant today as when published in 1941 (arguably more so). I would recommend to anyone really. I ought to give my old politics lecturer the praise because he introduced me to so many good things to read and it is a hard thing to do as an educator, to inspire people at the time - I wonder if he would be happy that 40 plus years later it is still an inspiration! The best teachers are wonderful folk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_from_Freedom#:~:text=Summary-,Fromm's concept of freedom,by other people or institutions.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

So if you cannot have both, which is preferable? Liberty or Freedom?

[A Load of Squit 5,224]

What a big baby.

 

[Herman 9,842]