Alex Tettey remains our best central midfielder

[Chelm Canary 404]

7 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

We’ve reached that point in the season that tettey comes back and plays every remaining game 

This does seem to be a common occurrence. 

The players i want on the pitch are the one's that can do their job.

Tettey should be in the hall of fame........assuming he isn't already. 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Chelm Canary

[Indy_Bones 441]

17 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

On the basis that Skipp was pretty much responsible for both goals I don't really understand why Maclean is the one getting the most grief again. He wasn't great, but he was a lot better than Skipp yesterday.

It's because despite Skipp having a rough time yesterday he was excellent against Huddersfield and has already shown he has ability but due to his age may be somewhat inconsistent at least in the short-term, whereas McLean has consistently shown his inability to manage more than a 5/6 out of 10 performance for the past 2 season other than on a handful of occasions.

Skipp looks like he does his job and will offer good cover to the defence whilst being tidy in possession, whereas McLean simply runs round a lot, points even more and struggles to play an incisive ball more than twice a season.

McLean should purely be a backup player, ok for a game or two to cover injuries or suspension, but not to play every week, not in that role and certainly not the first name on the team sheet.

[ron obvious 1,502]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Pretty sure most people are enjoying Quintilla beacause he is the first player we have had in some time who is able to cross a ball well

 

Not that Pukki is really one for headers (Lets be fair his against Preston was a fluke down to bad goalkeeping) but with Idah and Hugill having a fanatstic crosser is a good asset

Depends on the type of cross. The first time cross Placheta put in at the death yesterday was well nigh perfect for Teemu, who very nearly turned it in. Also Adam's good with his head, so, yes, a fantastic crosser is an asset.

Quintilla's defending capability looks like it might be questionable however. I'm hoping that doesn't develop into an issue.

[hogesar 9,674]

1 hour ago, Indy_Bones said:

It's because despite Skipp having a rough time yesterday he was excellent against Huddersfield and has already shown he has ability but due to his age may be somewhat inconsistent at least in the short-term, whereas McLean has consistently shown his inability to manage more than a 5/6 out of 10 performance for the past 2 season other than on a handful of occasions.

Skipp looks like he does his job and will offer good cover to the defence whilst being tidy in possession, whereas McLean simply runs round a lot, points even more and struggles to play an incisive ball more than twice a season.

McLean should purely be a backup player, ok for a game or two to cover injuries or suspension, but not to play every week, not in that role and certainly not the first name on the team sheet.

Yet last time we were playing at this level he scored 3 goals and provided 6 assists in 15 starts.

[Indy_Bones 441]

26 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yet last time we were playing at this level he scored 3 goals and provided 6 assists in 15 starts.

You mean the season where he and Vrancic had virtually the same amount of minutes on the pitch (1476 vs 1344), but Vrancic got 10 goals and 7 assists to McLeans 3 and 6?

3 times as many goals and twice as many assists in roughly the same time on the pitch, yet Vrancic apparently can't get a look in whereas McLean plays regardless of performances.

We need creativity and we need goals, Vrancic proved at this level he provides both - and far more frequently than McLean does, so I'm struggling to understand why McLean is Farke's golden boy when Vrancic is clearly the better player. I guess covering more ground like a headless chicken is more valuable than actually being effective, I think we should start calling it "Andy Hughes Syndrome"...

[BigGrantsTash 70]

17 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Don't think Tettey has ever played on the left hand side of defensive midfield and Skipp looks to be right sided too, so difficult imo to see both of them playing together. That gives Mclean the advantage.

Do you think midfielders are full backs? There is no such thing as a left sided or right sided Defensive midfielder. Save for the graphic on tv at the start of the game. Midfielders are expected to cover ground all over the pitch not stick to one side.

[BigGrantsTash 70]

7 hours ago, Six Pack said:

I think Tettey, Vrancic, Leitner and Trybull are all better CM than McLean & Skipp. They proved that the season before last. Have you not noticed that the level of football fluency and entertainment has gone down 90% ? Why are you on here promoting inferior players ?

I know some people prefer British born and bull doggedness - so stuff the foreigners but at the expense of the team ? - I don't know who is to be pitied ? I know - those that have to endure the current style of football !  You wouldn't know any better !

If you’re going to come out with something as ignorant as claiming Daniel Farke is picking Mclean and Skipp over his fellow countrymen because he’s a xenophobe then at least find the courage to say it.

[CUSDP 50]

Statistically Trybull was our best defensive midfielder last season. 

[hogesar 9,674]

20 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

You mean the season where he and Vrancic had virtually the same amount of minutes on the pitch (1476 vs 1344), but Vrancic got 10 goals and 7 assists to McLeans 3 and 6?

3 times as many goals and twice as many assists in roughly the same time on the pitch, yet Vrancic apparently can't get a look in whereas McLean plays regardless of performances.

We need creativity and we need goals, Vrancic proved at this level he provides both - and far more frequently than McLean does, so I'm struggling to understand why McLean is Farke's golden boy when Vrancic is clearly the better player. I guess covering more ground like a headless chicken is more valuable than actually being effective, I think we should start calling it "Andy Hughes Syndrome"...

Its funny, its almost like Farke knows better than you or I.

[Jim Smith 2,319]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yet last time we were playing at this level he scored 3 goals and provided 6 assists in 15 starts.

I was not convinced by him playing in this position during that run either. He came into the team when we were flying and whilst he admittedly played his part and provided some key goals in that run we lost the “control” of games we had previously and ended up having a lot of end to end slug fests. I can remember several games where his performances were not convincing.

its not that he’s bad just not convincing and at this level Tettey is a top notch holding midfielder. 

[Indy_Bones 441]

31 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Its funny, its almost like Farke knows better than you or I.

Ah, shades of the classic Glenn Roeder defence.

[Samwam27 527]

I don't get the hype from Farke about Maclean. He's not a defensive midfielder by trait, but isn't a creative midfielder either. He covers a lot of ground, but other than that he doesn't offer a lot.

If Skipp is our defensive player, and he/Tettey will share that role, we need other and better options than Maclean to provide that creativity. I do hope we see Sorensen given a chance soon, but heck, I'd prefer Pritchard be brought back to play instead of Maclean 

[Chelm Canary 404]

I'd have Maclean over Vrancic any day in this league. 

Vrancic is a flimsy and lightweight performer with the occasional peice of brilliance. 

It was never enough from him, but i did enjoy his contributions. 

 

 

[Indy_Bones 441]

1 minute ago, Chelm Canary said:

I'd have Maclean over Vrancic any day in this league. 

Vrancic is a flimsy and lightweight performer with the occasional peice of brilliance. 

It was never enough from him, but i did enjoy his contributions.

So his 10 goals and 7 assists in our last champs season weren't enough for you, but McLeans 3 and 6 were? Shall we also forget how important many of those goals were in the final run-in which sealed our promotion, or were they just lightweight and flimsy contributions?

Interesting logic you have, I guess if that's the case we should be playing Hugill instead of Pukki then, as his 29 goals and 10 assists  last time here won't be enough as Hugill's 13 goals and 1 assist are clearly better...

I mean, it's not like we are absolutely missing anyone in the middle of the park who can actually play incisive balls and make things happen for our forwards is it? Clearly McLean's meaningless running around and pointing are WAY more valuable to the team...

[Chelm Canary 404]

12 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

So his 10 goals and 7 assists in our last champs season weren't enough for you, but McLeans 3 and 6 were? Shall we also forget how important many of those goals were in the final run-in which sealed our promotion, or were they just lightweight and flimsy contributions?

Football games aren't won purely by goals and assists. There's a lot of dirty work from players that get little recognition - these players change games. 

I said i appreciate Vrancic's contributions so i don't particularly understand your logic in turning things upside-down. He was a bit part player that season and was brought on to do something special, which he sometimes did. He's a veteran now though. 

I don't know anything about Hugill and have never seen him play but i know Pukki is my preference but you put those words in my mouth. 

[CDMullins 436]

20 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Because he isn’t going to be around next season so we have to find some kind of system that works without him now. That simple.

Time and time again we start the new season trying to find a system that doesnt include him;

Time and time again he then proves he is easily our best central midfielder.

I though he was one of the only players who took any credit from his performances last season, he should be first on team sheet, 

[Aggy 755]

I know Leitner is well out of the picture, but the season we came up he was often a big part of the transition from defence to attack and I think we usually looked our most fluent with him in the side. I think Vrancic is the closest to that sort of player that we have (apart from Leitner himself but doesn’t look like he’ll get any game time). 

The only way I can see Vrancic playing in that holding/deep playmaker role though is if we have Tettey (or perhaps Sorensen if he’s any good) next to him. I’m not sure Vrancic plus McClean or Skipp gives you enough protection defensively. 

I also actually think McClean is at his best alongside a Tettey type player. Tettey holds and McClean is then your all rounder who does a bit of defending, gets forward more, is the link between Tettey and Cantwell - his all round game then complements the system with Tettey as the anchor. 

 I haven’t seen much of Skipp but I think he looks like he might be similar - yesterday for their second and at other times he looked a bit exposed when required to defend. Week before though his all round game looked great. Stick him alongside Tettey and I reckon you’d be on to a winner.

Will be interesting to see what Sorensen is like, as the recurring theme in all of the above is Tettey. If Sorensen is a capable Tettey replacement then we could be on to something.

[Indy_Bones 441]

12 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

Football games aren't won purely by goals and assists. There's a lot of dirty work from players that get little recognition - these players change games. 

I said i appreciate Vrancic's contributions so i don't particularly understand your logic in turning things upside-down. He was a bit part player that season and was brought on to do something special, which he sometimes did. He's a veteran now though. 

I don't know anything about Hugill and have never seen him play but i know Pukki is my preference but you put those words in my mouth. 

1) Games ARE won by goals and assists, because if nobody scores it's always going to be a draw.

2) What dirty work are you claiming to see McLean actually do? Does letting players easily bypass him and regularly fail to make tackles count?

3) If Vrancic was a bit part player in our champs season, yet got roughly the same minutes as McLean, then that also made McLean bit part, and his bit was of significantly less value to our promotion than Vrancic's was, which is probably why McLean had a 23 game stretch where he didn't even make the bench (Vrancic did).

4) A veteran at 31? You mean like 34 year old Tettey who has been one of our best players for the past 8 years? I guess he's rubbish as well because he's a veteran?

5) The Hugill comment was because you clearly value players who actually perform worse for the team than the guy who should be playing, funny how it doesn't count in Pukki's case, but does for Vrancic.

[hogesar 9,674]

1 hour ago, Indy_Bones said:

Ah, shades of the classic Glenn Roeder defence.

Only Glenn Roeder was an awful manager for us. Farke has generally identified and progressed talent. In fact when he came into the club it was him who pinpointed Lewis straight away.

So yes, Farke does know better than you.

[hogesar 9,674]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I was not convinced by him playing in this position during that run either. He came into the team when we were flying and whilst he admittedly played his part and provided some key goals in that run we lost the “control” of games we had previously and ended up having a lot of end to end slug fests. I can remember several games where his performances were not convincing.

its not that he’s bad just not convincing and at this level Tettey is a top notch holding midfielder. 

I remember you saying that before. I do get what you're saying, however one of his poorer performances last time in the championship, can't remember the fixture, but I commented on here at the time he was playing poorly and admittedly, we were losing control of the midfield in that game. But then he scored two goals and its hard to argue.

[Indy_Bones 441]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So yes, Farke does know better than you.

Is that because he missed my tenure as England manager?

[Jim Smith 2,319]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I remember you saying that before. I do get what you're saying, however one of his poorer performances last time in the championship, can't remember the fixture, but I commented on here at the time he was playing poorly and admittedly, we were losing control of the midfield in that game. But then he scored two goals and its hard to argue.

That was what tended to happen. He’d pop up with a goal or an assist and also because we were winning a Farke just didn’t change the team.

I don’t want this to be all about McClean. Very few of them played well yesterday. I just feel we are always a better side with Tettey sitting in front of the defence and whilst I know we are trying to move forward and build something new I don’t see how you do that by playing a player we already had who has played there for two years with mixed success. I just don’t see why he is suddenly “indespensible.”

I really hope Sorensen gets a go and makes this debate irrelevant but I fear he may not get a chance for some time. 

 

[Indy_Bones 441]

Out of the 13 games he played 75+ minutes, he scored 7 and assisted 4, (which if extrapolated over a full 46 game season equals 25 goals and 14 assists, but that's by the by), so what more do you actually want from a creative central midfielder???

I don't care that he's not great defensively, I don't care that he's not that quick or particularly good in the air, I don't care that other players are better tacklers or better dribblers, because what he can do that NONE of our other central mids can, is to have the vision and technical ability to bring our forwards into the game whilst offering a genuine goalscoring threat himself. Not to mention his genuine quality from free kicks and other dead ball situations.

Having McLean alongside Tettey, Trybull or Skipp hasn't made us better defensively or helped up maintain possession better, but what it has done is remove that creative spark which players like Pukki, Stiepermann, Buendia and others all benefitted massively from.

Let players like Tettey, Skipp and Trybull deal with the defensive part of the midfield, but they NEED a player like Vrancic alongside them to actually do something useful with the ball once they've won it back. Leitner was another who helped with this area, as he could also pass a ball and really set a tempo for the rest of the team (but without Vrancic's attacking threat or set pieces) - McLean just can't.

I really don't get why a number of posters seem to want to drag Vrancic down and make out he's not good enough. It's like complaining that De Bruyne should be dropped because he's not good enough defensively, whilst completely ignoring his passing ability, goalscoring threat and actual difference a player like that makes because you can't simply ignore them. Opposition sides aren't scared of McLean, whereas the thought of giving Vrancic the time to make a perfect pass to Pukki, let him hit one from 20 yards, or giving him a free kick from a decent position WILL and DOES concern them.

When did we start celebrating mediocrity and mindless running over technical ability and actual threat? How many fans would rather have had a Mike Milligan over an Ian Crook? I know I bloody well wouldn't...

[king canary 7,607]

Assists are a totally meaningless stat.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,759]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

Assists are a totally meaningless stat.

Are they?....Harry Kane assisted all 4 goals for Son today...is that 'meaningless' ??

....  XG  , or whatever that is, now that is meaningless

[Chelm Canary 404]

1 hour ago, Indy_Bones said:

1) Games ARE won by goals and assists, because if nobody scores it's always going to be a draw.

We never actually needed Tettey then.

[Indy_Bones 441]

Assists are a direct reflection of contribution to goals, the more assists you have, the more goals you've helped create.

Whilst in some roles this is far less relevant such as keepers, central defenders, defensive mids etc, for attacking midfielders and forwards it plays a much greater and frequently expected part of their game.

Liverpool scored numerous goals last season due to crosses, passes and set pieces from their full backs and is a direct reflection of their contribution to Liverpool scoring, so to claim it's meaningless is misleading at best, and downright wrong at worst.

Out of the 93 goals we scored in the champs promotion season, over 70 of them came from assists by teammates, 12 from Buendia alone, and nobody doubts his value in providing this, but somehow it's different with Vrancic and meaningless in his case?

[paddycanary 539]

Perhaps Tettey & Skipp to provide a solid screen would allow the full-backs and the front 4 a bit of freedom? If Buendia is still "unavailable" (or worse) for the next day & Dowell is crocked, perhaps Mario might get a run in a roving no. 10 role? Or Marco to start maybe with Vrancic off the bench. Cantwell won't be dropped and I can't see both Hernandez & Placheta starting. I don't think Josh Martin will see much pitch time until we've found a bit of rhythm & solidity. I did wonder how Leitner might have performed yesterday - seems a bit of a shame how that's worked out as he looked impressive two years ago.

If Buendia & Dowell are both out, it'll probably be Rupp in to tighten things up and McLean will almost certainly be in somewhere, probably deep or possibly another no. 10 option. 

We'll still be trying to replace/upgrade Tetts in 20 years!

 

[king canary 7,607]

21 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Are they?....Harry Kane assisted all 4 goals for Son today...is that 'meaningless' ??

....  XG  , or whatever that is, now that is meaningless

XG is far more meaningful than assists.

Assists are meaningless because all it means is you had the last touch before a goal. Play A could create four or five great chances in a game that their teammates then miss, then player b else plays a 5 yard pass before their teammate smashes it into the top corner from 25 yards.

After the game if you just look at assists then player B has been more creative.

[Indy_Bones 441]

2 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

We never actually needed Tettey then.

Theoretically that's right, as if you can simply outscore a team even if you concede a number of goals yourself you still get the 3 points. This is why we finished 3rd in the Premier League with a negative goal difference, we weren't the strongest defensively (not like a classic Mourinho side who were happy to grind out 1-0 wins) but were good in passing and attacking which lead to a lot of wins, but a number of absolute thrashings in exchange.

The point here is simple, if you play nothing but defensive players you are unlikely to ever get more than a point for a draw unless you can squeak a goal from a set play or similar, if you play all attacking players you will likely concede a lot and whether or not you get the points depends on if you outscore them.

Most sides quite understandably look for a balance, but in the process you don't tend to find TWO defensive midfielders in the centre of the park unless you have absolutely top class players around them who can make things work with the limited supply they give offensively, or it's a team purely looking to park the bus and hope to scrape a goal from somewhere whilst not getting battered in return.

ONE defensive midfielder in a side like ours is enough, two leaves us giving the forwards very little to work with and why players like Pukki will start dropping deeper just to try to make something happen.

TWO attacking and creative mids can be an issue as well, which is why the preferred balance is one of each - a defensive minded mid and a creative attacking mid.

At the minute we're playing a defensive mid and a jack of all trades mid (who is neither creative enough nor defensively strong enough to claim either role), when we should be playing a defensive mid and a creative mid.